Brexit 2020+

Cat well and truly amonst the pigeons, who are looking for worms that have escaped the can…..

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/dec/12/majority-of-brexit-voters-would-accept-free-movement-to-access-single-market-uk-eu

Well ‘make love to a winged animal that can generaly be found swimming in ponds and rivers’.

Who would have thought it?

I don’t  like it, any more than you, my friend… but it seems shouty racist ‘so-and-so’s’  are runing the UK now.

Well I’ve never had so many complaints before about the price of international stamps – when we left the EU we also lost the postage deal we had with it that essentially made the international travel part of stamps free (within the EU). So all international stamps are now £2.80.

The amount of Leave voters that can’t get that by leaving the EU we lost this agreement also! Non stop complaints this Christmas.

Cat well and truly amonst the pigeons, who are looking for worms that have escaped the can…..

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/dec/12/majority-of-brexit-voters-would-accept-free-movement-to-access-single-market-uk-eu

Still heart breaking to me what we (and particularly the younger generation) through the lies, half truths and false blame of the EU for the UK’s own political failings.

Wise heads predicted it would take a few years, but that many people would start to realise what we had lost with Brexit.

One of the reasons my son is in NZ is that he could not get work in the alps, the place he wanted to spend a couple of years working. Last summer two of them looked at work in France, Italy or Austria – no go as they are UK citizens. Grrrr.

Its been obvious for years that the majority want back in to the EU and its growing all the time.  the real tragedy here is Starmers conversion to arch brexiteer in his fear of those racists in a few northern english seats abandoning the rest of us and condemning us to stay in the brexit backwater

This could be avoided but starmer is afraid of upsetting a few gammons.

To **** up and believe in it is stupid enough but to **** up with something you don’t believe in is certifiable.

https://news.sky.com/story/british-businesses-stop-shipping-to-northern-ireland-due-to-new-eu-rules-13271068

Across the EU, pluralities in every country polled agreed: 45% of Germans said they wanted closer relations with the UK, as well as 44% of Poles, 41% of Spaniards, 40% of Italians and 34% of French.

‘They need us more than we need them’ … aye right.

I do want to see politicians be more brave and more decisive on this, as the older divisions on this are far less than they were (as the survey in the link above shows), and it’s all being rapidly overtaken by pressing current needs around security and economy (read: Trump and Putin etc.).

I don’t think Starmer has become a brexiteer, but I think his current position is political expediency which he is holding on to out of too much caution (it’s part of the ‘ming vase’ right?). Don’t get me wrong, I’m deeply frustrated by it, and I wish they’d just say yes to student movement, but maybe it’s a negotiating point? I think they are holding out on brexit changes because after being lent votes by red wall voters returning from Tory, they are mindful of not creating a ‘brexit betrayal’ by moving too quickly – you can see how the headlines would write themselves. Unfortunately I think it’ll mean improved relations will come later than current needs require, when we have already been impacted by newer more pressing threats, but also it extends the negative impacts/harm of brexit further. Crappy situation really, but I just hope the general trajectory is improved relations that have a meaningful impact rather than a bit of tickling to throw a bone to sad remoaners like me…

Added to which the view that starmer could flick a switch and we’d be able to reopen negotiations straight off is simplistic at best.

Much as I also would like a reversal it’s a long way off.

Of course he could have done and still could.  When someone tells you who they are believe them and Starmer has become a hard brexiteer from his public pronouncements and actions.  He has no intention of taking us back even close to the EU

How can Starmer reverse the Brexit vote – he can’t sign an executive order like the Trump can? I am really not sure there is a wave of movement to re-join.

Britain will never again get the preferential treatment it had since 1974-2016 which will make it a harder sell this time round.

Public opinion is massively in favour.  Of course Starmer could go for a decent rapprochement with the EU with that public support behind him.  Of course we would not get the same preferential treatment and probably have to go for a half in type of deal but it is an absolute nonsense to continue with the economically disastrous hard brexit.  But that is the path Starmer has chosen.

Its political cowardice

+1 tj.

starmer is a disgrace.

Public opinion is massively in favour.  Of course Starmer could go for a decent rapprochement with the EU with that public support behind him.

The public’s opinion is meaningless though really, Brexit is a political wound that’s only just closing, and while I’d go back in a second, no one wants the political stalemate that discussions around Brexit would cause. Reform will take more seats from both the Tories and Labour, do you really want to hand them their election slogan for the entire length of this Parliament?

I’ve never had so many complaints before about the price of international stamps

Off-topic, but the cost of domestic post staggers me. What’s a regular first-class letter now, £1.85? I can order slave labour electronics from China and get free postage so long as I’m not in a hurry.

‘They need us more than we need them’ … aye right.

It was always blindingly obvious to anyone with a modicum of sense that this claim was plainly ridiculous. Even if we were the greatest country in the world (spoiler, we weren’t) we just were one country of 28.

I was about to add “they need us like Tesco needs Londis,” then I went to check before posting whether it was a nationally recognised brand and it turns out that Tesco owns Londis. Then my ironyometer exploded.

To **** up and believe in it is stupid enough but to **** up with something you don’t believe in is certifiable.

https://news.sky.com/story/british-businesses-stop-shipping-to-northern-ireland-due-to-new-eu-rules-13271068

Funnily enough my colleague was talking about this just yesterday.  His hobby is making and selling pottery. He’s had to take his Etsy shop offline for the time being, because you can’t exclude NI from your sales area (it’s all of GB or nothing) and he can’t afford to sell to NI.  So he’s just selling via a couple of local shops instead…

Starmer has become a hard brexiteer

No he hasn’t.

Its political cowardice

Could be. Could be waiting for the right time. Who knows. It’s disappointing whatever it is.

How can Starmer reverse the Brexit vote

This is problematic thinking IMHO. There is nothing to reverse, it’s done. Using words like “reverse” feeds into the far right narrative, it will just ignite the flames all over again. We need to be having grown-up conversations about going forwards, rejoining rather than undoing.

I’ve said pretty much since 2016 that we should be arguing for reform rather than remain, too many people interpreted remain as “do nothing.” And now we’ve got Reform UK saying exactly the same thing only wanting to drag us further into the mire.

What did you want to “reform” with a small r in 2016, Cougar. Cameron thought he could reform the EU to the UK’s advantage but EU countries were already of the view that too much had already been conceeded to the UK. Sure the UK needed reforming, the way political parites were/are funded, the ability to lie and mislead with impunity, the power of lobby groups, corruption, royalty , the Lords… .

I agree with TJ, Starmer’s current policy on the EU is more Brexity than Farridge in the run up to the 2016 vote. Check it, the Brexit enacted by the Tories was harder than Farrage called for pre vote and Starmer won’t budge on any of the Tory red lines that lead to the Barnier withdrawal agreement which is a harder Brexit than anyone was calling for pre 2016.

I don’t even see it as cowardice, I see it as a closet Tory infiltrated in the Labour party enacting policies Thatcher would have have found too right wing and isolationist for the good of the country.

I am really not sure there is a wave of movement to re-join.

Give it a few more years.

I want starmer to deliver the Brexit we were promised.

Even the most prominent leaver said you’d be a total **** idiot to leave the single market.

Off-topic, but the cost of domestic post staggers me. What’s a regular first-class letter now, £1.85? I can order slave labour electronics from China and get free postage so long as I’m not in a hurry.

£1.65 for first, 85p seconds class.

There’s a few reasons – but letters really make RM a loss & parcels don’t. Look at other carriers (every/yodel etc) their minimum charges area around £3, that’s what a letter should cost. If RM weren’t tied to their contacts with the government they probably wouldn’t have a letter service at all. Regards china your £1.65 is subsidising the postage from china coming the other way.

Funnily enough my colleague was talking about this just yesterday. His hobby is making and selling pottery. He’s had to take his Etsy shop offline for the time being, because you can’t exclude NI from your sales area (it’s all of GB or nothing) and he can’t afford to sell to NI. So he’s just selling via a couple of local shops instead…

Yep, a mates Crochet business has had to do the same – she can’t even sell a digital pattern.

Freeeedumb

Cougar – look at what Starmer says.  He espouses hard brexit with no significant rapprochement.  He even refused the young persons scheme FFS.

the real tragedy here is Starmers fake conversion to arch brexiteer in his fear of those racists in a few northern english seats abandoning the rest of us and condemning us to stay in the brexit backwater

This could be avoided but starmer is afraid of upsetting a few gammons.

To **** up and believe in it is stupid enough but to **** up with something you don’t believe in is certifiable.

With one small alteration (in bold), this pretty much sums up my position.

A man who is intelligent enough to have been a QC and DPP being advised to act stupid and pretend Brexit is a good idea.

Brexit is so monumentally stupid that it bends reality.

starmer is a disgrace.

What, for getting elected?

Grow up FFS – what don’t you folk understand, the UK has no ability to re-join the EU without the EU deciding we can.

And while we’re in this position any ‘weakness’ on the part of the UK Govt is basically an invitation to be shafted by a competitor, whether it’s the EU, USA or even little old NZ.

Those that voted Brexit, and those that implemented have shafted the UK big time – that’s where the blame lies, it’s got FA to do with Starmer (or any future Govt whatever the Party TBH).  We’re in 5h1t-creek and we need serious Politicians with long-term vision & aspiration to steer us along, hopefully to a better place – but it’ll take decades.

^this^

( I voted remain BTW) but i’m in Europe anyway. i just think Starmer  has inherited a nightmare.

“Brexit is a political wound that’s only just closing”

No it isn’t. And it’s being kept open and festering by Labour.

Those that voted Brexit, and those that implemented have shafted the UK big time – that’s where the blame lies, it’s got FA to do with Starmer

Starmer voted for the current deal, he even whipped his party to support it. It would be hard to be more culpable. The current situation is the predictable consequences of his actions. And those of others, of course – there is plenty of blame to go round.

At some point someone is going to have to try and fix things.

In 5 years we will have a reform government ,starmer needs to do what he can and do it quickly.

there is plenty of blame to go round.

And to me, the more we focus on that blame, the more circles we go in and isolation we feel.

I do think there is something in it being a Good Thing if more of our Westminster politicians expressed a view that they would like to be back in the EU, despite it not being either in their gift or an easy process. But we need more people saying it openly.

I wonder if by the next General Election we will hear such calls.

And to me, the more we focus on that blame, the more circles we go in and isolation we feel.

I agree that merely focussing on the blame alone isn’t particularly helpful, but pretending that Starmer is part of the solution rather than part of the problem is wishful thinking at best. It’s not just that he was at fault back then, but that he has promised to persist with the fault indefinitely into the future.

It’s not just that he was at fault back then, but that he has promised to persist with the fault indefinitely into the future.

Precisely.

Centrists increasingly adopting the language of nationalists/populists/extremists is a seemingly common theme on the political threads right now on STW.

Here is a real example – just not one that Lexiteers are keen to acknowledge.

🙂

Brexit is a political wound that’s only just closing

No its not closing and never will while our politicians play the brexit game and lie about europe.  the vast majority of UK citizens want back in – even a majority of those who voted for brexit will accept FoM FFS.

Its a festering wound that will not close until we are back in

What did you want to “reform” with a small r in 2016, Cougar.

It’s not so much what I want as what was the message. Marketing if you like.

There were many drivers for brexit, one of which was a general disquiet. “This is all shit, let’s try something else” was a powerful ballot-winner. Most of the genuine complaints, such as they were, were domestic issues rather than EU issues.

The grown-up thing to do would have been to look at why people wanted to leave and address those concerns. Instead we were plunged headlong into a referendum with minimal notice that vanishingly few people on either side really understood. Many still don’t.

But this is old news, it was (jesus!) eight years ago.

tjagain
Full Member

He even refused the young persons scheme FFS.

I thought it was pretty telling that his public justification for doing so was complete bullshit, he didn’t attempt to reject it on merit or on the facts, he went directly to pretending it did something it didn’t do and pretending that all the constraints and safeguards didn’t exist. I don’t think he’s a brexiter at all, but he certainly works hard to appear like one. Is that worse? Not sure. Obviously people can shout “to get elected” but nobody can claim it was proven he had to do that.

The weird thing is at this rate we’ll very likely hit a point where Tories are more likely to take us back into alignment than Labour

He even refused the young persons scheme FFS.

You can go to Australia, NZ, Uruguay, but not France…

Mind, the other way to look at it, France is cheap and easy to get to, Australia, NZ etc aren’t cheap and easy. By banning the easy option young people can’t escape and see the UK isn’t wonderful.

I closed my online business for good this week – 6 years and not much to show for it. The new product regs for the EU were a further nail in the coffin. Even when I sent stuff to the EU with the correct paperwork, declarations etc they often got returned because the buyer wasn’t prepared to pay the charges.

That’s a shame.

The public’s opinion is meaningless though really,

Yep , no party with who wants to sit at the table is going to be putting freedom of movement on the table when you have Farage stirring it up 24/7.

If it’s not on the table you can’t vote for it.

I’m watching a few websites for the ‘older generation’ that like to reminisce about the good old days that have gone thru  a few name changes, someone’s getting ready to keep the drip,drip of hate and fear of furrineers alive.

I closed my online business for good this week – 6 years and not much to show for it. The new product regs for the EU were a further nail in the coffin. Even when I sent stuff to the EU with the correct paperwork, declarations etc they often got returned because the buyer wasn’t prepared to pay the charges.

I’ve had a few U.K. bike packing things sent over to here (Spain) and tbh,it’s a nightmare for all involved.

Both companies were really good and everything was sorted but one parcel never arrived and another got import duty applied on prepaid import duty, everything seems to disappear in Madrid for a while then the tax/handling charges start arriving.

I was expecting it and so were the companies but once your at the mercy of customs it’s all bets off 🙂

(Back in the day I broke a plastic end on a boxster roof at the beginning of the holiday after driving to Spain and had a new one from the U.K. in days at my holiday address.)