Brexit 2020+

Jonv – many ways to look at the numbers but tories lost 1000ish seats, labour only gained half of them

Labour gained 20% extra seats from where they were, greens gained 50% extra seats

%’s mask absolutes – Labour gained 500-odd extra seats, despite a ‘pro-brexit’ stance that is costing them votes?

And the Greens gained 200-odd extra seats (agreed, a very good result for them from their low base) despite being the rejoin horse in this particular race.

I know there are other factors at play, including the anyone but Tory tactical vote – even the LDs gained twice as many seats as the Greens, and now have 3-4x the number overall that the Greens have, and no-one knows what the LDs stand for!  But those absolute numbers (not % compared to base) don’t tell me of a massive rush to pro-rejoin, and they don’t tell me of people deserting LAB in their droves.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9798/CBP-9798.pdf

I think I can understand why some parties might be pro-EU while not currently campaigning to rejoin. Leaving the EU took several years and took up a lot of the government’s and parliament’s time, which distracted both from many other issues that required attention. I have no doubt that rejoining would do the same. Perhaps some people believe that it would be better to spend some time focusing on other issues before beginning the long slog to rejoining the EU?

I can also imagine that while there is public support for rejoining the EU, it might start slipping away when the news headlines start filling up with stories of the seemingly never-ending political and diplomatic battles that would follow, and frustration would grow about the amount of time and money being spent on it while other issues were being side-lined because of it. Some parties may not want to commit to that course of action until they’re confident that public support is strong and resilient.

That said, Labour’s current message does seem to be that they aren’t even thinking about rejoining, even beyond the short term. Maybe that’s because of temerity and a concern that sounding pro-EU is still going to cost them votes they need, rather than because they don’t want to rejoin, but even then it’s frustrating and disappointing.

Quite frankly for 99% of us, who GAS what currency we use, as long as it’s the one we’re ‘paid in’ that’s really all that matters

it’s probably more like 48% or less of us don’t GAS. Plenty will care outside of this echo chamber.
It’d be daft to think otherwise.

Personally I think Labour’s recent announcement about scrapping universal childcare will do them more harm than their stance on Brexit

As far as I can tell, they’ve scrapped every announcement I liked the sound of…

Quite frankly for 99% of us, who GAS what currency we use, as long as it’s the one we’re ‘paid in’ that’s really all that matters

You’re joking aren’t you?

Theres a significant element is this country (52% at the last count) that have never stopped moaning about using metric measurements instead of double-decker buses and football pitches, and bitching about why they can’t pay for things in threepenny groats, shillings and chickens

 instead of double-decker buses and football pitches

Well, if we do start to head back into the EU we can start a negotiation over whether the appropriate SI unit of “Very Large Things Indeed” should be measured in Wales or France

I thought it was “isle of Wights” which is rubbish as I have no idea its size.

ChrisL makes a good point. If a party commits to moving in that direction, they’d have to start doing it. And that would take up a huge amount of parliamentary time when there are really other things that need urgent attention right now. Long term, of course we’d be better off in the EU and a stronger economy will help us pay for what we need – we all know that – but the country is currently on fire, in terms of governance and that needs putting out. That will take at least a term.

Sadly I do think universal childcare would have given us a great start in putting those fires out.

That measurement has long been standardised along with several others.

I think I can understand why some parties might be pro-EU while not currently campaigning to rejoin

Yes. It isnt something which would make sense in the next five years. However there could be alignment short of full rejoin attempt and also just acknowledge that brexit has failed.
Look at the reasons why people voted out and explain why it was never going to solve most of them and how in many cases its got worse.
The pretending its all fine is a problem.

Well, under our previous ‘deal’ we retained sterling, had a right of veto and had a seat at all the tables to do with the future direction of the EU.

Now?

Blue passports.

👏

Or we could accept that many of the issue the UK faces cannot be solved without rejoin?  hence rejoin is the top priority?

given what Starmer has said there is no significant steps that can be taken and the EU has also ruled out any renegotiation of the exit deal.  thats the problem with his ” make brexit work” – its impossible

That’s a logical fallacy, though, TJ. EU re-entry is not THE top priority just because it touches a lot of other stuff. Housing, interest rates, education, healthcare, drugs, fraud – all areas with zero or little EU involvement, all massive concerns.

As an aside, there isn’t really “rejoining” or “re-entry” to the EU. It is wildly unlikely that the EU would accept the UK back on its former terms. There is really only “joining for a second time”.

I thought it was “isle of Wights” which is rubbish as I have no idea its size.

Maybe a Jersey (110 sq km, 45⅞ yokes) would be a suitably Anglo-continental unit?

Or we could accept that many of the issue the UK faces cannot be solved without rejoin?

The people who knew that it was madness to leave in 2016, know that now. Nothings changed.

The people who believed Boris and Farages ‘Project Fear bollocks have still largely got their fingers in their ears going LA-LA-LA-I’M NOT LISTENING!!!

In the grand scheme of things its amazing how little the polling has changed, despite all the evidence of what utter folly this whole farce has been

I’m sure that on a personal level, every politician who’s been in Westminster since 2016, bar the proper Berxit headbangers, is absolutely sick to the back teeth with it all, and have absolutely zero appetite for reopening the whole can of worms all over again, so that it once again becomes all-consuming and nothing else gets done

Or we could accept that many of the issue the UK faces cannot be solved without rejoin?

I dunno. There’s money in the UK economy, it just needs redistributing and spending on the right things.

Leaving the EU took several years and took up a lot of the government’s and parliament’s time, which distracted both from many other issues that required attention. I have no doubt that rejoining would do the same.

Hmm… Since brexit ‘got done’, we’ve had nothing but drama and soap opera from parliament…

Very little governing actualy seems to be taking place. You know, That thing they get paid hefty amounts of money to do.

Brexit gives us a continuing and compounding economic hit.  thats why rejoin needs to be a top priority because without rejoin attempting to do anything about these other issues is doing it with one hand tied behind our backs

Ignoring it is not going to work – brexit will remain an all consuming political issue until we are at least back in the CU and SM and the pro EU parties will continue to keep it in the forefront

We haven’t even finished leaving yet – lots of damaging stuff still to be implemented like customs controls on incoming goods

Every day we are out more damage is done and its political cowardice to refuse to see this

Its not just the brexit ultras with their fingers in their ears – its most of both tory and labour

Every day we are out more damage is done and its political cowardice to refuse to see this

Seeing it is one thing (most people with anything between their ears can see that), rectifying the whole thing is another thing altogether

But we all know that your view is completely binary about this (dear god, you’ve told us enough times!) and everyone who doesn’t 100% agree with your approach is immediately labelled by you as ‘an enthusiastic Brexiteer’

The labour party, or whatever coalition gets in once this shower are booted out have got 14 years of decay, neglect, corruption and incompetence to try and deal with , of which Brexit is just one (admittedly large) part. They’re going to have a lot to do, a limited timescale in which to do it, and they’ve probably factored in that probably the best approach to that would not be to immediately alienate half the population and start a re-run of the whole national fissure all over again

They also have to make a big impact in the 5 years they get.

So ignore the biggest thing that they can do to improve the economy and thus lives of the people of the UK?  and BTW Binners – labour have become enthusiastic brexiteers – have you not listened to what they say on it?  “make brexit work” my arse

Starmer is refusing any significant rapproachment with the EU

The Labour Party is not ignoring the cosmic disaster of Brexit. To say so is just making stuff up.

So ignore the biggest thing that they can do to improve the economy and thus lives of the people of the UK?

Cor, say that on the Kier Starmer thread and you’re gonna get hoofed in the slats by crypto-monetarists who will accuse you of being a Tory stooge!

and BTW Binners – labour have become enthusiastic brexiteers

No, they haven’t

And on that note I’m out, because on this matter, much as I love you, its quite like…

The Labour Party is not ignoring the cosmic disaster of Brexit. To say so is just making stuff up.

how do you work that out?  I have not heard them calling out the disaster it has been and I have not heard them calling for anything significant in the way of rapprochement with the EU

No to CU, SM, FOM “make brexit work”  is being enthusiastic brexiteers – remember we were told that even if we voted leave we would still be in the CU /SM

Instead we have Starmer over and over again refusing to do anything significant to move towards the EU and gaslighting the UK public

I’m just picturing the Tories rescuing themselves after a campaign where the main slogan was “KEEP Brexit Done.”

we were told that even if we voted leave we would still be in the CU /SM

Who said that? It was bollocks then and it’s bollocks now.

Every day we are out more damage is done and its political cowardice to refuse to see this

I don’t think that Labour aren’t refusing to see it, just becasue they’re not saying it in public doesn’t mean jack. In fact I’m pretty sure they entirely understand it. It’s also perfectly understandable for anyone to hold both that “Brexit is shit” and “We’re going to have to live with it for the time being” as truths in their heads at the same time. Especially if you want to last more than one term and talk about nothing else but doing the same shit we’ve all just been through in reverse. If I was Starmer I’d not want this to define the next 5 years either. And even if the polls say that folks are increasingly unhappy with it, that doesn’t mean they’ll vote for another referendum, or that that’ll vote to re-join in another referendum, or that they’ll vote for Labour to hold a referendum.

You know full well why Labour aren’t riding Dobbin the Re-joining Wonder-horse all the way to the door of No10, you’re not daft.

we were told that even if we voted leave we would still be in the CU /SM

Yeah, but that was always ‘cakist’ bollocks, only believed by the gullible and hard-of-thinking (who apparently account for 52% of those that voted)

The rules of EU membership are simple, clear, unambiguous and non-negotiable

If you want to be part of the single market then that includes freedom of movement. No cherrypicking. You can’t have one without the other. Them’s the rules

Considering the amount of people in this country who completely lose their shit over a hundred people in a dinghy on a beach in Kent, you can forget rejoining the SM.

If Starmer even mentioned it in passing, every right wing tabloid would soil themselves in horrified indignant outrage and have headlines screaming LABOUR TO WELCOME IN UNLIMITED MASS IMMIGRATION!!!, the Tory’s would weaponise that and all the thicko’s, racists and half-wits would vote the Tory’s back in.

You can delude yourself that that wouldn’t be the case, but you’d be wrong

Oh I am sure it would be the case.  doesn’t change the fact its political cowardice from Starmer and I believe being principled and truthful on this would overall be a vote winner.  You know – show some leadership and lead public opinion.  Imagine the effect onpublic opinion to have the leader of labour doing this – its already moved hugely away from brexit while Starmer supports brexit.

He is being fundamentally dishonest

It’s also perfectly understandable for anyone to hold both that “Brexit is shit” and “We’re going to have to live with it for the time being”

But thats not Starmers position is it?

Its not what he’s saying in public, no. But what he has said in public is up for interpretation. What he thinks or says in private, I’ve no idea, but I don’t believe he thinks Brexit is a Wonder horse.

You know – show some leadership and lead public opinion.

I don’t think he has to frankly, the public aren’t stupid either, they can work it out for themselves, but I don’t think the public want another 5-7 years of parliament arguing about it either. It’s been shit, and nothing has got done becasue of it. I don’t think the public are ready for the political bun fighting that re-join would provoke, no one has the appetite for it, and I’m pretty sure that not enough folks would vote for it (yet). I think Labour have also made that calculation. The EU would only have us back if there’s an overwhelming majority supporting it, and it’s the resolved position of both major parties to re-join. That will happen, but until it does, suck it up.

NO Molgrips – I will argue my corner and listen to the counter arguments

Some of them, anyway. 😉

Look, in the local elections, people voted for NOT Conservative and then on issues and councillors, little of national politics was considered beyond headlines.  Many people do not like SKS and so voted for Green or LD rather than Labour or Conservative.  These, more than Brexit were the issues.  I know this as I went door to door with the LD and this was what I heard from real people, not polls or the internet.

WRT national politics, and I’m stating this for the second time today, Brexit is not the issue, it’s not even in the top 3.  Money/economy/costofliving is #1.  Health and Social care is #2. Governance is #3.  People just want to see government working for them – this actually covers 1, 2 and 3.  I’d honestly place climate change above Brexit at the moment, but maybe that’s observer bias from my direct interactions with people on the doorstep.

Migration was still in the top ten, as was Brexit, but migration was mixed between those that saw it as bad and those that found they were no longer able to find skilled help to do things and thus saw the lack of it as bad.  Building, gardening, handyman things they used to be able to get done, they no longer can or it takes months to find someone.

Imagine the effect onpublic opinion to have the leader of labour doing this

We’ve already covered this. Just to recap…

If Starmer even mentioned it in passing, every right wing tabloid would soil themselves in horrified indignant outrage and have headlines screaming LABOUR TO WELCOME IN UNLIMITED MASS IMMIGRATION!!!, the Tory’s would weaponise that and all the thicko’s, racists and half-wits would vote the Tory’s back in.

So we’d have another 5 years of the Tory’s (which would make rejoining ever happening even less likely), but that would be fine because he lost heroically and honestly and thats what matters

Imagine the effect onpublic opinion to have the leader of labour doing this

I’m sure it’s been posted before but wouldn’t rejoining require adopting the Euro?
I doubt you’d get that through in my lifetime.

Which I think is the new game,natural wastage of the true believers(of Brexit) 🙂

Why waste time when time wastes them, go in then with rejoin when the numbers are more in your favour.

So ignore the biggest thing that they can do to improve the economy and thus lives of the people of the UK?

It’s not the biggest thing. It’s not like if we went back tomorrow food bank usage would disappear, is it?

The UK has a string of problems caused by shit government since 2010, this is only one.

I’m sure it’s been posted before but wouldn’t rejoining require adopting the Euro?
I doubt you’d get that through in my lifetime.

No, it wouldn’t.

Although it would be worth doing not for any economic reason, but just to ram home the point that Brexit is a cesspit of failure.

yes but the year on year compounding economic hit impoverishes the UK.  Brexit increases inflation, has wrecked our export economy and decreased growth.

Hence rejoin is the keystone to get the better economic situation needed to solve the other issues.  Not insoluble without rejoin but much harder

Can I make a suggestion Uncle Jezza?

You might want to pop over and take this particular argument to the absolute nutters good people on this thread. You’ll fit right in….

😉

I think one of the issues here is living in Scotland that is much more pro EU and has political leaders that call out brexit as the disaster it is alters the view.  In England ( dunno about wales) you do not have political leaders doing this.  In Scotland we have pro EU parties to vote for

I know a bunch of folk who were all ( like me) impressed with Starmer at the beginning and thinking of voting labour.  Due to his brexiteer stance all have changed their mind.  I will not vote for a party that supports Brexit.  thats a red line for me

Anyway – round and round we go.  I should have continued to keep out of it