Bradley Wiggins down, Time to burn parliament?

OK, so maybe burning parliament is a bit OTT but signing this could raise the issue with the government after two high profile cycling chaps have been hit in the past week and the media are still talking about it.

I’m not sure I totally agree with all the aspects the creator put in it but like I say its worth trying to raise the issue with HM government.

Cycling e-petition

Lost my support with point 7.

We’re in with lions we don’t need hi-viz and lights, we need something done with the lions.

^^ what he said, why try and set ourselves up for accusations that it’s our own fault. The author of that piece has my support for trying to do something, but he really ought to have sought others opinions before putting that up.

You mean Wiggins the tax evader? Makes it kind of ironic burning parliament.

I’ve signed it because I agree that laws should be enforced. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to see someone dressed in black who has no lights on their bike?

I agree, the points aren’t well made and are a bit OTT. I was tempted to write my own as it is a bit asking for too much.

With such high profile incidents seems a shame not to start something moving on this otherwise when will we ever get anything changes regarding cycle infrastructure / safety

So, why don’t we (as STW) come up with what we’d put in it and then put it on the petition website (that is if we can actually agree on anything)

The other night when driving along, I struggled to see a pedestrian walking down a rural road – he was dressed in black with no torch or high vis. I was cursing him, just like I’d be cursing any idiot cyclist for not using lights and high vis in a similar situation.

This all needs give and take, without it nothing will move forward.

There is blame for both sides,

HI-Vis/reflective piping etc and Lights should be enforced more IMHO, don’t see what the issue is,

Cycle lanes all across the UK isn’t practical. The roads aren’t wide enough near me to support it, so they would HAVE to fine every driver that used them.

Cycle lanes all across the UK isn’t practical.

Yes it is, it can’t be done overnight, but we need to make a start with proper commitment to achieve that. Then maybe in a couple of decades that’s what we will have.

Totally agree – a journey of a 1000miles starts with a single step – well at least that’s what my fortune cookie said.

two high profile cycling chaps have been hit in the past week

i get your point but these two are insignificant really as they both got off lightly with cuts and bruising and will return to normal life. More significant is the steadily increasing number of Joe Blogs cycling fatalities, particularly in the capital. If you want another currently high profile person to add to the list try Sofoklis Kostoulas.

IMHO our roads are fooking sheet for cyclists, road aggression is high, everyones in a rush, headlights dazzle in urban areas, some cyclists/drivers road skills and awareness are diabolical, the road network is designed for horse and cart not HGV, lane discipline is poor, the whole psychology of of road use pretty terrifying… i could go on….

The change needed is H U G E and i really can’t see it ever happening. Personally i’d start with restricting HGVs in certain city centers during peak hours, which would probably get me lynched by the road haulage association or who ever it is!

We’re in with lions we don’t need hi-viz and lights, we need something done with the lions.

You’re in with lions, but legally you should be using lights and it’s common sense.

^^ what he said, why try and set ourselves up for accusations that it’s our own fault

A LOT of the time it is partially the cyclists fault, I see **** endless cyclists on my commute home running reds, weaving all over the road without lights and wearing dark clothes – why should the drivers get all the blame? Why avoid the chance to improve yourself and make things safer without having to change others?

I also rarely have a problem with heavy goods vehicles so I’m not sure where that opposition comes from, you just use common sense and avoid them. I really don’t understand the “we’re so vulnerable on the roads, please protect us” shortly followed by “Shhh don’t suggest high vis and lights enforcement”. Or “I jump red lights where I think it’s safe” followed by “Ban HGVs as they’re dangerous”.

I think it would be far more sense if everyone involved accepted they had to respect other vehicles on the road, had to do all they could for their own safety and if either were found to be in the wrong they get slated, irrespective of method of transport. I’m sick of this childish blame game.

I do agree very bright vehicle lights swamp cyclists lights generally, which is a safety issue. I do agree many drivers are aweful at dealing with cyclists. I do agree that many cyclists are horrificly bad at using the roads. I don’t agree that everyone needs licenses, more training, the roads changing – we just need to use more common sense, have more respect and calm the **** down a bit on the road.

Cycle lanes all across the UK isn’t practical.
Yes it is, it can’t be done overnight, but we need to make a start with proper commitment to achieve that. Then maybe in a couple of decades that’s what we will have.

Through cities maybe,

But what is the point of sticking them down country lanes that have barely enough room for two cars?

The money would be better spent with education than just painting the edge of roads green.

Was Wiggo wearing hi-viz? Would it have saved him from being hit?
Where (yes, where, not wear, hey petition boy) does the amount of hi-viz become legal? I’ve got piping on my gloves and spoke reflectors, but I don’t wear a hi-viz jacket. Would I be legal?

Is there a law that says cyclists have to use cycle lanes?

I’m not aware of it.

Lights and reflective / hi-viz clothing just make sense, even they aren’t a solution in their own right. How would the don’t need lights lot react to cars driving around without lights?

long live the coffeeking (+1)

Lights in my opinion are a must!
Having lived around the world I’ve experienced some very bad attitudes toward cyclists and the last country I lived in you wouldn’t ride in he day without a little red lighthouse flashing from your seat post, let alone at night.
I’d ride at night with off road lights on my helmet there and would have to deliberately dazzle the brain dead 4×4 drivers to even make them mildly aware I was there. It really was bad!

I live in Oz now, Melbourne (and no, I deffinitely don’t ride Beach road with all the cafe hoppers) and nearly all cyclists ride with a bright rear light and sometimes front light even In the day. Hi viz? I’m not a fan an don’t wear it, but equally don’t ride in black kit on road.

It’s our lives and our look out.

I do agree that the points listed are poorly thought out and mostly impractical from a pure cost and implementation point of view. But, if dizzy bitches and drunks are going to continue knocking our finest off there bikes and killing people, something has to be done.

The intention is good, but your petition is poorly written and a bit scattergun (e.g. “Have designated cycle routes like Quebec’s Route Verte.” – what does this mean?)

Cycling organisations are already working hard on this, and anyone who is concerned might want to consider putting their weight behind one of the existing campaigns:

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/campaigning/article/cam20120828-Get-your-MP-to-support-our-campaign-for-a-justice-review-0

http://www.ctc.org.uk/campaign/safety-in-numbers

Instead of clicking a button on another e-petition, write your MP/MSP/AM a letter. They (or their staff) have to take time to reply to constituents, and if they get enough letters about something it does put the subject on their radar. It’s easy to send an email to your representative here:
http://www.writetothem.com/

Re the stuff in the petition about hi-viz and lights enforcement (there’s no law to enforce about hi-viz, as far as I know): There is no need to apologise for cycling every time we challenge the status quo. We need to politely and insistently demand change, without caveating our arguments with diversions about helmets and red lights. As a cyclist, I have no collective responsibility to apologise. I do deserve a better cycling environment in this country, without conditions.

This all needs give and take, without it nothing will move forward.
There is blame for both sides

Case in point. There is no quid pro quo required to improve cycling facilities. I observe all traffic laws. I cycle defensively, take steps to protect myself and try to treat other road users as I would like to be treated. What should I be “giving”? What “blame” should I be shouldering? Cycling is a positive force for everyone in this country (cylists and non-cyclists) so stop the self-blame and ask politely for something better.

Yep be visible be responsible. The moral high ground may be nice but broken bones still hurt up there.

With all this talk of

hi viz

what does this mean in terms of conspicuity?

Contrasting? Bright? Reflective?

Most of my reflective cycle kit is actually black, bright contrasting doesn’t work for me on unlit pitch black rural roads.

When I started cycling to work 25 years ago, no one wore hi viz clothing, no one wore helmets, lights were absolute rubbish, and drivers thought we were arseholes. Now plenty of cyclists have hi viz clothing, plenty wear helmets, and plenty have fantastic led lights that work, and drivers still think we’re aresholes.

Was Wiggo wearing hi-viz? Would it have saved him from being hit?

No, it wouldn’t, but it falls into the same category as lights – if it’s dark you should be wearing something suitably reflective to help people see you. The same as road workers have to when working at night.

No, it wouldn’t, but it falls into the same category as lights – if it’s dark you should be wearing something suitably reflective to help people see you. The same as road workers have to when working at night.

So, same for pedestrians then?

So, same for pedestrians then?

It would certainly help.

I think we should start with abiding by the rules regardless of what other road users do.
You simply can’t call the shots until you have your own house in order. I’ve been driving to Wimbledon recently and the riding I see just makes me think, well I don’t know really. But if there are any saboteurs among us then last week they were visiting Wimbledon.

Black or cammo clothing just seems a daft choice on open roads, and should IMO just be used for race days, but hey fashion before safety.

And lights. IMO these token things shouldn’t be allowed, and there should be some sort of standard.

lights should be enforced but not hi-viz clothing.

Unless it is lit up then it can be pretty useless as it has nothing to reflect – and if it is in the midst of a load of colorful stuff it doesn’t stick out – people put too much faith in it.

If it becomes law, then all cars should be high viz as well.

attention drawing lights that imply movement work much better.

You simply can’t call the shots until you have your own house in order

What does this mean? Should the US civil rights movement not have demanded equal rights and an end to segregation because some black people fiddled their tax return or didn’t return their library books on time?

The CTC Safety in Numbers campaign:
* Improve driver behaviour
* Make the road environment more welcoming for cyclists through traffic volume and speed reduction and good cycling infrastructure
* Fund schemes that promote cycling positively and improve confidence

The BC Justice Review campaign:
“The creation of a safe and welcoming environment for cycling has many elements. One of those elements is how adequately people feel they are protected by the law. It is clear to us that the current justice system often delivers results which send the wrong message about the right of people to ride safely on the roads. We need all our members and Cycling Weekly readers to take action now to make the government take this issue seriously.”

Of course you can choose to wear hi-viz clothing and use lights at night. I do it myself, but it has nothing to do with the objectives of the campaigns above, and is not a pre-requisite for taking action. Stop apologising, start asking for better.

What does it mean?

Well stop jumping lights
Use lights at night
don’t mix road and pavement to suit yourself
Have the faintest idea of the highway code, road signs etc.
As it stands you can ride a bike on the road without knowing a thing about….well about anything.

What does this mean? Should the US civil rights movement not have demanded equal rights and an end to segregation because some black people fiddled their tax return or didn’t return their library books on time?

Get a grip.
Why does a motorist need to pass a test, why does a motorcyclist need to pass a test, why does a cyclist only need to be an incompetent moron at the very least to cycle on the very same roads as a person who has shown that they at least understand what they ‘should’ be doing even if they don’t do it.

I know we have a right to be on the road.

he BC Justice Review campaign:
“The creation of a safe and welcoming environment for cycling has many elements. One of those elements is how adequately people feel they are protected by the law. It is clear to us that the current justice system often delivers results which send the wrong message about the right of people to ride safely on the roads. We need all our members and Cycling Weekly readers to take action now to make the government take this issue seriously.”

This is pure crap. Does a driver actually make a conscious decision at the spur of the moment to drive badly because he thinks the law is weak? No they drive badly because they can, the same way as the next person drives safely and to the letter of the law. Why do people kill themselves in cars? because they take risks. If you are prepared to drive so badly that you might kill yourself, you certainly won’t be bothered about the law.
Look I’m sorry I wish it was different, but having good legal process in place to deal with things after they happen never seems to change much.
So like I said get your house in order, drive and ride like you were just taking your test, or if a copper was behind you 🙂

How can you enforce high viz clothing? It’s not a legal requirement, so what’s to enforce?

Half of serious brain injuries happen in car crashes. Isn’t it about time we had compulsory helmets for car occupants?

Does a driver actually make a conscious decision at the spur of the moment to drive badly because he thinks the law is weak?

I don’t see this suggestion anywhere in the BC campaign?

dont they bus kids to school in the us of a?

if they did this in the uk would’nt it reduce a huge amount of unnecessary car journeys? (the school run)

the roads seem a lot less stressful during the school hols.

Aye- but during the school holidays, lots of parents GO ON HOLIDAY. That reduces the numbers of vehicles on the road during the rush hour.

kcr – for the record and to reiterate what I put earlier – this isn’t my petition.

I went on a very interesting motorbike safety course a while ago and the subject of hi vis came up.

Fundamentally reflective bobs on black clothing is worse than useless as you just create “dazzle camouflage” (google it) which means it’s impossible to pick out how fast you are going or how far away you are. You need to look like a cyclist, which means means solid block colours I.e. a bright jacket or jersey with sleeves, pedal reflectors amd bright, but not dazzling lights.

The colour can be important as well. This time of year hi vis yellow can just blend in with the leaves on the trees. Apparently pink is reliably the best colour…

The thing which came out though, was that as vulnerable road user, whether thats a motorbike or pedal bike, we have to take responsibility for our own lives. Blaming other road users for not seeing us when we wear black or camo clothing is just asking to be hit.

The guy runs a company and website called “survival skills” and writes a column for MAG about road safety and is generally acknowledged to be the expert in the subject. It certainly opened my eyes!

So the bit about extra law (hi-viz) is not necessary. As others point out we all ready have rules to abide by, we don’t need more. Enforce those we have effectively and dispassionately. I reckon a couple of months of increased presence by the police in major conurbation’s issuing tickets for ALL transgressions would see a major improvement in road behaviour by all users. Those that don’t improve will no doubt get an enforced absence from the road network to reflect on their inability to consider their fellows.
Yes we need to take responsibility for ensuring we are visible but as I pointed out above teaching us to wrangle lions is a half-arsed approach. Tackle the lions and we won’t need to wrangle them.
They need to take responsibility for being in charge of a couple of tonnes or more of lethal machinery. SMIDSY is not and should not be a valid excuse. Anyone maiming or killing another on the roads should lose the privilege of a driving licence without exception, “pour encourager les autres”.

Damn right about taking responsibility for your actions – although a number of years ago I stopped overtaking cyclists when I wouldn’t have overtaken a motorcyclist. Shame not all drivers think the same.

still, encouraging parents not to use the car for the school run (and providing proper alternatives) would be a massive boost in every sense.

aside from reducing unnecessary (and carcinognic) vehicle pollution, getting this sector out of their cars would save them collectively heammoraging money out of the country (yes i’m aware of the taxation issue).

any attempt to alleviate road congestion caused by the school run should be seen as an inroad towards gradually eliminating unnecessary car journeys.

we have the tools, technology and talent to acheive vast reductions in urban car use.

we have vast computing resources that could be utilized by a roads ‘tsar’ and logistics specialists, charged with the task of reducing urban traffic density year on year.

enforcing 20mph zones within urban areas combined with a move away from using the kerb for parking would help.

all the above should feedback into making cyling much safer for us all.

ps. ‘city-car’ is an oxymoron.

with sufficient will, expertise and resources passenger transport within cities should not require cars to any considerable extent.

So is the solution reducing car use and / or encouraging bike use?

I’ve always thought charging people for the miles they do would be a good deterrent. I know petrol has gone up and some will say that this has reduced car travel but speaking to someone in the motor trade he says he has seen a lot of people reducing their speed to make their fuel go further but still doing the same journeys. Charging people by the miles they do would stop the unnecessary trips – like 500m to go to the shops rather than walking etc or driving kids to school round the corner (like people on my street do when I walk)

By the way I should add my job involves me driving about 20k a year so I’m not saying this as a non-driver.

Generally the idea of the petition is great unfortunately its a knee jerk reaction to Bradley Wiggins being hit. For anything to change we would need a proper well thought out proposal rather than what appears to be a quickly put together set of wants and needs. There are a great deal more things that would need to change to make cycling and roads in general safer and encourage cycling. Applying the existing laws would go a long way but we as cyclists also have to be responsible.

First thing you do on a new bike is remove reflectors.

Police to treat cycle crime as a they would other property crime.

Cyclists to be prosecuted for riding like twunts.

Insurance for cyclists?

No riding on pavements. OK I do occasionally but not in city centres etc its ridiculous.

As cyclists we all pretty much flout the law and we can’t expect to have it both ways, we need to raise our own game at the same time asking for better legislation and the fair enforcement of current legislation. If we can get that we may in time reach a utopia with motorists.

1) Safe cycle lanes across the UK.

If they actually worked and were more than 2 metres long and 0.5 metres wide in places. The current cycle lanes are generally ill conceived poorly marked and inconvenience everyone. It should be part of future town planning and development.

2) Severe penalties to drivers who use cycle lanes.

It very much depends, I would suggest just penalties that are actually enforced. However many cycle lanes are ill conceived therefor making it awkward for all road users.

3) Fine drivers who use bus / bike lanes

Um thats the same a number 2 isn’t it!

3) Consider if vehicle parking; sometimes drivers can’t see when parking blocks driver visibility at junctions.

I think the highway code discusses parking near junctions, again apply the law.

(Why do we have two number threes?

4) Severe penalties to drivers, who hit cyclists, through carelessness.

Already exists just not applied.

5) Reduce excessive pavement sizes where possible to create space for cycle lanes.

I like this idea.

6) Have designated cycle routes like Quebec’s Route Verte.

I think we are moving that way but alot of cycle routes available.

7) Police enforce the law, where cyclists don’t use cycle lights or where visibility clothing at night.

The highway code states this along with helmets as helmets are not compulsory I assume hi-vis clothing isn’t either. Sensible clothing would make a difference however I am not sure of the statistics for cyclists being mowed down dressed as a ninja against those mowed down in fluorescent clothing.

8) A Government investigation to plan how to create safe cycling in the UK not think about

An investigation would not lead to anything a firm commitment is required.