Bogtrotters ride the Ben on a bank holiday!

We’re not really discussing what the individuals’ own responses are.

Seems not all threads are aligned here. This was the topic on hand from this comment

…and reflect on the earlier decisions once down – ideally in a context wider than just one’s own viewpoint.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to infer that whoever posted the video is not genuinely ashamed of what it shows

Are you ashamed of every mistake you have made? or do you just regret or wish you had done differently?

fails to realise that mistake through however-much-time of making the mistake all the way down a mountain

So you would have carried your bike back down? Would that have been safer for riders and walkers?

I have to say, I’m not a fan of the Bogtrotters’ attitude as I’ve been at the brunt of it myself. I regularly ride a local fell that is “Open Access”. It’s signposted “No Cycling”. The landowner is known to one of my regular riding buddies, and has said that the No Cycling rule mainly for insurance purposes, and if it discourages irresponsible cyclists, that’s a bonus.

I regularly get challenged by walkers, and I politely point out that I have permission, and that’s usually the end of it.

A year or two ago, I overtook around 30 Bogtrotters as they started the ascent of this fell. When I was around 500yds in front, I was challenged by a walker, practically foaming at the mouth with anger at the state of the footpaths where bikes had cut them up.

My argument didn’t really hold much sway when I was – for all intents and purposes – sharing a path with 30-odd other bikers.

They certainly didn’t have the direct consent of the landowner to ride the fell, so I couldn’t really use that argument on their behalf.

So yes, I think they are irresponsible in their choice of rides, and antagonising other users of these areas is only going to deepen the rift between us.

Show a bit of common sense in future, there are plenty of places to ride where you won’t cause that sort of bad blood, even on a bank holiday.

But someone who makes a mistake, fails to realise that mistake through however-much-time of making the mistake all the way down a mountain, goes home and edits the footage of their mistake and then shows the mistake to the whole world could, I would contend, be argued to be lacking it to some degree

Sounds like an old chinese proverb.

People move on, they took a risk, pretty boring and pointless one, but that’s what lifes about, no one got hurt, because mtb-ing is relatively safe, as another wise stw-er once said: Live and let live. I’ll let you guess who.

Once up on the mountain and faced with all that traffic?

Ride down slowly stopping to let walkers clear sections if needed. As the code says – give way to walkers don’t expect them to give way to you. Passes should be at near walking pace, even if the walker steps aside ,on a path as narrow rocky and steep as that. too bad it would spoil the descent

Ride down slowly stopping to let walkers clear sections if needed. As the code says – give way to walkers don’t expect them to give way to you.

Agreed. Was there a specific point in the video where you believe this was not the case?

These guys were dicks.

Nice, really surprised the mods let you get away with that.

All over it. others point out specific timings but I watched a fair chunk of it and saw dozens of incidents which were not giving way to the walker and speeds were consistently far too fast causing the walkers to scatter off the path.

All a bit pathetically ‘look at me, I’m a rebel’, I’m afraid.

as far as I can make out they just hadn’t expected such numbers of walkers – but it was nothing to do with rebellion!

They certainly didn’t have the direct consent of the landowner to ride the fell, so I couldn’t really use that argument on their behalf.

owning land allows you to exploit some of its resources, not say who can pass over it

owning land allows you to exploit some of its resources, not say who can pass over it

Pretty sure you’re not a particularly astute student of the law.

“Seems not all threads are aligned here.“

No, fair point, my fault for picking up on a tangential point earlier.

“Are you ashamed of every mistake you have made? or do you just regret or wish you had done differently? “

In an abstract context: no and yes respectively. Naturally. But we have context here, and if I’d ridden in the manner shown in that video I’d be ashamed of it. I wouldn’t have done it, of course, but it’s feasible one could have a bit of adrenaline whilst on the trail and then in the cold light of reviewing the footage realise that it was out of order. And I’d have thought anyone realising it was out of order wouldn’t then publicise it.

Anyhoo… that’s still the tangential point.

“So you would have carried your bike back down? Would that have been safer for riders and walkers? “

No, and there are plenty of sections in there where the combination of speed and space meant that passing is/was fine. But there are several points, some of which I’ve specifically mentioned but there are others, where the passing was extremely inconsiderate and/or dangerous. At the narrow and/or technical points I’d have been slowing and trackstanding to let people make their own decision of what to do – and if their decision had put them in a position where I thought they were at risk, such as standing with no margin for error to the downslope of the trail, I’d have waved them through before carrying on. And I wouldn’t have been approaching people at the same speed as is done at some other points.

So no, I wouldn’t have carried, but I’d have dealt with it totally differently. I’d have dealt with every group of people in the same way that I’d deal with anyone on a less busy ride and accepted that I just picked a daft day to do it and at least I’d be able to do some trackstanding and hopping practice. It’s not a big deal, I’ve done that plenty of times before – not on quite such busy trails, but on more technical ones where being in control and being able to come to a standstill is if anything even more important.

There’s no need for a horsehair shirt like just pushing a bike down, but the fact that by picking a silly combination of route and day you land yourself with a long chain of being considerate doesn’t make it ok to just not be considerate.

Nice, really surprised the mods let you get away with that.

True though……

… speeds were consistently far too fast causing the walkers to scatter off the path.

Walkers are often surprised and move erratically regardless of riders actions. The speed is difficult to guess, it’s so bumpy the cam footage makes it seem faster. It took 1hr 30 to descend (what must be 8km).

Scotland is huge and largely empty (people were driven out by the English)

It is a large country but it’s not all unpopulous: The Central Belt and Ben Nevis on a bank holiday afternoon are obvious examples of busy areas.

Highland de-population was in-part caused by forced eviction of tenant subsistence farmers to make way for agricultural improvements by the landowners who were mostly Scots. Blaming England for the highland clearances is just propaganda.

I didn’t think it was that bad, maybe they made a bad call coming down at 09.30am on a bank holiday but I wouldn’t expect it to be that busy, it’s only with hindsight that I/and I’m guessing now they do too, know this not to be the case.

Also, I thought they were generally quite polite through the whole video.

So no, I wouldn’t have carried, but I’d have dealt with it totally differently.

I think most would. This is one riders footage and one person’s choices. Looking at the video, he definitely could have done much better.

Ben Nevis on a bank holiday afternoon

Just to clarify, 9:30 am.

Politeness is great but just saying “morning!” to everyone doesn’t mean much. Acions speak louder and all that.

simonfbarnes – Member

owning land allows you to exploit some of its resources, not say who can pass over it

You’re actually rather ignorant, aren’t you. Open Access allows access to people on foot. It specifically prohibits cycling.

The land owner has every right to grant permission for individuals in exactly the same way that they can do as they please on their own land.

Just because I invite someone into my home for a beer, doesn’t automatically give you the right to enter with 29 of your mates uninvited.

“I think most would. This is one riders footage and one person’s choices. Looking at the video, he definitely could have done much better.“

I think that’s kind of what I/we’ve been getting at 🙂

I think that’s kind of what I/we’ve been getting at.

Fair enough. Didn’t really need 9 pages of flaming / swearing / insults to make that point.

DarkSunny? Scotland? Early June?

Who’d have thunk it?
How many proles stomped their way up to a snow capped mountain wearing nothing more than jeans and t-shirt?
Responsible?

Hey. I stand by my flaming and insults 🙂

The land owner has every right to grant permission for individuals in exactly the same way that they can do as they please on their own land.

Can a land owner really do as they please on their own land?

Hey. I stand by my flaming and insult

Such is the problem with forums. A disagreement in person most often end us in some agreement in the end (one way or another). On forums just more anger and hatred.

The last time I swore at someone in person was in high school (apart from my ex-wife that is) 😉

bit of a side issue but one brought up (tho not actually the same) by shibboleth. Most cheeky riders beef with the boggies seems to be that they are open and forthright about flouting access rights. That’s a bit rich really, either you beleive access rights are fair in england, in which case don’t do cheeky, or they aren’t in which case stop having a go at boggies just cos they don’t sneak around flouting the stupid access rules.

Lot of insults getting chucked at the riders. 9:30am no way would I have expected that many walkers. BH would be busy yeah but not that busy at that time, so the these guys aren’t the only ones surprised. Locals obviously know better but try not to be too condescending to those who don’t.

Can a land owner really do as they please on their own land?

to about the same degree as I can do what I like on anybody’s land 🙂

As a former boggie I have access to the Facebook messages. Also I know or have met most of the guys in the vid

Whatever the right or wrong of this particular episode, (personally I think they were well in the wrong) there was a massive self congratulatory thread on their Facebook page pointing to a message put up on a walking blog of one walker in particularly who had had an unpleasant experience that day with this set of riders

Early on in the thread I pointed out it would have even better to have retired to the nearest cafe before they got too far up. Especially as they had done plenty of riding that weekend

As I know these guys and their own particular quirks and attitudes there’s one guy I think is pretty sensible and a very good rider. The rest are ego merchants with biggish bikes and no skill

Furthermore I have no idea why Simon fb has got involved as he is unlikely to know the ride was even on. Takes much less involvement in the club running that he had done previously. I can only assume he’s been lacking attention and feels the need to bully some people on the web again to get his fix.

I may be wrong but I doubt it

Lots of love and group hug

Plum

to about the same degree as I can do what I like on anybody’s land

Well that’s cleared that one up then. 😀
How do you differentiate between someone’s private garden and the land of a country estate, regarding right to access?

I can only assume he’s been lacking attention and feels the need to bully some people on the web again to get his fix

mea culpa!

“Such is the problem with forums. A disagreement in person most often end us in some agreement in the end (one way or another). On forums just more anger and hatred.“

In my defence I would call someone a dick face-to-face if I was with them and they rode like that.

Early on in the thread I pointed out it would have even better to have retired to the nearest cafe before they got too far up.

For what reason would you retire going up at 6am with no walkers around?

As I know these guys and their own particular quirks and attitudes.

Simply not true.

The rest are ego merchants with biggish bikes and no skill.

Now that is just stirring, and not really relevant.

I think calling strangers names on forums is very undignified and I never do it – usually they can be relied on to trash themselves quite effectively without my intervention.

In my defence I would call someone a dick face-to-face

What do you think that would achieve other than a heated argument?

http://www.facebook.com/groups/4231996447/

Wow. Looks like proper war.

“What do you think that would achieve other than a heated argument? “

What’s wrong with heated argument? I see nothing inherently wrong with letting people know you feel strongly about something provided you back it up with constructive and reasoned points. I’m not saying I’d just call them a dick and leave it unexplained.

In my defence I would call someone a dick face-to-face if I was with them and they rode like that.

Maybe you’d end up in the video getting a slap 😉

Wow – what a thread…I kinda got fed up at the sniping by page 3 and jumped to the last page by wanted to add my 2p worth.

I guess those that are anti this caper ALWAYS negotiate all other users in a responsible manner when out for a ride and have NEVER left the marked path – aye right!

I know there are masses of other places to ride but as decent wild riders does the ‘challenge’ of riding up (ahem) and down Britain’s largest mountain have no appeal whatsoever?

Anyway – why do the walkers have right of way over a biker, surely it is common sense and decency to give way to those coming down the hill? Isn’t that normal etiquette for walker versus walker?

I think everyone’s definition of ‘reasonable’ will always be different and unless behaviour is ‘dangerous’ then really we should be able to share the land without the animosity – sheesh.

Don’t get me started on the erosion debate – thousands of walkers versus a handful of bikers and the bikers are the ones that are always lambasted – grrr.

Read the thread- walkers have right of way in Scotland.

… back it up with constructive and reasoned points. I’m not saying I’d just call them a dick and leave it unexplained.

I would say it’s far more effective and polite to avoid the name calling and go with just the constructive and reasoned points. Will have a higher chance in the resulting argument being won.