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[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/may/04/tube-strike-london-may-june ]only 29% of the 1,300 drivers balloted had voted in favour of strike action.[/url]
From what I read, one of the "sacked" drivers turned off the safety system on his train. How can that be allowed?
i heard it was because they dropped below andrex
just get the Have I got News for you where he looked like the idiot he is
If only the ballot had been AV ........... if only
Good on them. Sticking up for one another. Just like the good old days.
.
The two drivers meanwhile are on full pay (~45K / year) at home. Nice [s]work [/s]if you can get it.
That's what union membership gets you.
Did 71% vote against industrial action then? Seems odd that there'd be a strike if that's the case.
Given the 2 to 1 ratio mentioned earlier in the article, this suggests a return rate of about 45%. May I suggest your ire be directed at the 55% who didn't bother to vote, given that of course they all would've voted against strike action...
The RMT's announcement follows a 2-1 vote in favour of industrial action by union members
Why the need to strike, what's wrong with an employment tribunal ?
64% of the electorate at the last general election didn't vote Tory and look how that turned out
If there is anything whatsoever wrong with the ballot, and don't worry management will scrutinise it and go through it with a fine tooth comb, it will be declared illegal by the courts.
I like Bob Crow, in fact he's my hero. Part of the reason I like him is 'cause he tells it as it is. There's no spin from him, he's a Millwall supporter, and he doesn't give a toss what you think of him Flashheart. He's there to fight for his members and his industry. It's because there aren't more people like him that we're in the shit.
From what I read, one of the "sacked" drivers turned off the safety system on his train. How can that be allowed?
Have you ever driven a train flashy? Do you have the faintest idea what you are talking about? No, thought not.
1/10 for such an obvious troll, go back to snorting cocaine out of a champagne filled trough please.
Hmm yes, onions saving the world one strike at a time...
Have you, Yossarian? Assuming you have, please explain how turning off safety systems in public transport is a good thing.
Ernie, I'm sure all those people who can't get to work and earn any money to do things like pay the rent, perhaps feed the family, you know, important stuff, while your troughing hero lords it around will be happy that you support him.
the tube is for suckers anyway
this will just emancipate more commuters from public transport bondage and get them to discover the joys of cycling
go bob !
Kimbers, in that alone I will support him! 🙂
Hopefully they'll all think about joining a union flashy while they're sat at home wondering how to get in to work.
I thought they were going to change the law on this so that the majority of members had to be in favour, not just the majority of voters.
Why can't this be settled in a more dignified rather manner. Seems like they are looking for excuses to strike, maybe they're expecting the nice weather to continue.
Doesn't particularly contribute to this debate but it's a good remake of a popular song...
[url=
Underground Song[/url] (caution - contains very naughty words)
He's there to fight [s]for his members and his industry. [/s]It's because [s]t[/s][b]he[/b][s]re aren't more people like him th[/s][b]a[/b][s]t we're in the[/s] [b]shit[/b].
FTFY
Ernie, I'm sure all those people who can't get to work and earn any money while your troughing hero lords it around will be happy that you support him.
Like Bob Crow, I couldn't give a toss what Evening Standard readers think. Being right is far more important than appeasing the Tory press. I'm perfectly happy to go out on a limb......surely you must have noticed that ?
As a Rail Industry worker, much as though I detest Brother Crow's 1970's rhetoric he is a necessary evil to thwart managements desire to run rough shod over T's & C's and safety.
I pay my RMT dues because should I ever get "stiffed" by mangement after an incident the union lawyers will do their best to keep me in a job and/or get me fair compensation.
but surely if you're incompetent you deserve to get stiffed by management?
or do we live in a world of responsibility without accountability?
Just out of fairness, what is the name of the retarded idiot who manages the underground and decided to abuse his employees rights and cause a strike that will inconvenience so many people?
Im a train driver , not a tube driver but the basics are the same. I cant think of a single reason why a driver would turn off a safety device whether Its the Vigilence pedal , AWS / TPWS or Drivers reminder alarm as there would be no benefit what so ever to doing this. Its a fairly common practice for Employers to find a fault with a Union reps work In order to get rid of them. It happened at my former workplace and a Active Health and Safety rep who did his best for our conditions almost lost his job , pension and livelihood.
Well done RMT members for sticking together In order to save a couple of colleagues jobs.
If the charges are BS then won't the employment tribunal throw them out ?
Crow is a massive arsehole.
An effective, infuriating, pig-headed arsehole.
You probably couldn't find a better union rep. I love 'im!!
You probably couldn't find a better union rep. I love 'im!!
I love him because he infuriates right-wing Selfservatives like Flashy who don't really give a toss about worker's rights anyway really.
And Selfservatives like Flashy woon't know anything about sticking up for others. Solidarity is a dirty word to the 'I'm alright Jack' brigade.
but surely if you're incompetent you deserve to get stiffed by management?
Worse still, what if you are competent and still get stiffed by the management? Millions of workers in UK PLC know how this feels.
stanfree - Member
Im a train driver , not a tube driver but the basics are the same. I cant think of a single reason why a driver would turn off a safety device whether Its the Vigilence pedal , AWS / TPWS or Drivers reminder alarm as there would be no benefit what so ever to doing this. Its a fairly common practice for Employers to find a fault with a Union reps work In order to get rid of them. It happened at my former workplace and a Active Health and Safety rep who did his best for our conditions almost lost his job , pension and livelihood.
Well done RMT members for sticking together In order to save a couple of colleagues jobs.Posted 37 minutes ago # Report-Post
According to the rule book of the railways, if AWS is not working the train must be stopped at the next station and taken out of use, remember what happened to the HST at southall, with a driver who had it switched off and couldnt even watch his signals and hit another train, killing a few passengers.
Bob Crow is the best RMT leader in years, more power to his elbow and the more people he upsets the better, +1 for telling it like it really is and sticking up for the members, we need more of that.
Thats speaking as a former RMT member.
Yup Project unless accompanied by a competent person , I know the rules thus why I said It dosent make sense. The only thing I can think of Is he has a had a TPWS activation (Overspeed) and instead of reporting It he has just cancelled the activation and driven on. Believe me train drivers would not purposely drive on unaccompanied with isolated or defective AWS as In the most will do anything for a cancelled service .
+1 for telling it like it really is and sticking up for the members
but at what cost?
are the strikes a proportional reaction to any wrongs that have occurred? I don't use the tubes regularly, I generally cycle or get the bus, but it really p****s me off because strikes mean the roads are awash with more traffic and more lunatic pedestrians stepping out into the road
When I worked in a London bike shop we had various posters tucked away for use whenever there was a Tube strike in the offing - "Beat the strike, buy a bike", that kind of thing. Business usually went up by about 25%.
🙂
but surely if you're incompetent you deserve to get stiffed by management?
or do we live in a world of responsibility without accountability?
I'm not saying that, but every incident I've seen and had the misfortune to be involved in the attitude in our "blame free" culture is to find a suitable minion to take the fall so that cause and fault can be apportioned and corrected. Sometimes it is someones fault for being lazy or incompetant BUT just as often it's a failure of the system and then pressure from on high to get the job done to prevent BACKLOG.
Accountability starts at the top; Captain of the Ship and all that, something our Captain's of Industry quickly forget when they run to the Corporate lawyers when the "get the job done or else" attitude cause injury, death or heaven forbid - POSSESSION OVERRUN!
Yes, I am a bit bias but the sucking-on-lemons-faces I see when pulling a job due to bad/poor safety paperwork, cutting work back because I don't want to risk compromising the morning service or moaning about poor quality project work, go some way to justifying my attitude.
I'm glad I don't live in London anymore - tube strikes have an impact which is totally disproportionate to their starting points IMO.
Whatever the politics, truths, rights and wrongs of this specific situation, I'm not sure why a dispute between 2 employees and their employer means 12 million people end up being inconvenienced and costs London and therefore the country millions in lost business and makes London less attractive for international businesses to come to.
If we make the city's transport unreliable, international visitors will just go elsewhere. We shouldn't underestimate the impact to UK economy of this.
However, the growth in cycling and technological advances making remote working easier are developments which will reduce the impact of tube strikes which is a Good Thing IMO.
2 million people end up being inconvenienced
The strikes will not inconvenience 12 million people. Nowhere near that number. Don't be so dramatic.
And what about the extra revenue through congestion charging, as more people will drive in, taxis, private cabs, etc?
and all the wages that will be saved by staff not turning up for work, and all the new jobs that will be created when the old staff are sacked by Borris, then theres the cost of power that want be used,sad about all the congestion on the new blue bike lanes though.
You're right, my figures are unproveable, I don't know how you do measure the social and economic impact of a tube strike but still, how can a dispute between 2, TWO! men and their employer lead to millions of people not being able to get around our most economically valuable city for a day....
You'd better ask the management that.
It's not between 2 men and their employer, it's between a trade union and TFL.
TBH I can't see the point of one day strikes, which have became very fashionable in recent years - with everyone concerned with minimising the disruptions. Until the men are reinstated there should be no return to work. If you're going to go on strike, then what's the point of returning to work when the dispute hasn't been resolved ?
did they get a majority of the those who voted?
What a glib way of venting your anti union spleen. Do you want to force people to vote?I doubt any of use are excited about low turnouts in elections but they occur in all elections except for those ones on the tv where you phone in.
Being a union member (FBU) and having in the past withdrawn my labour, i can assure you that what ever is published in the papers will most certainly be inaccurate and misleading. There is always two sides to a story, why don't you go down to one of the picket lines and talk to the strikers and hear their side of the story? You might just be surprised if you bother.
If we make the city's transport unreliable, international visitors will just go elsewhere. We shouldn't underestimate the impact to UK economy of this.
Shame they didn't think of that when it all got privatised, and is now one of the most expensive transport networks in the world to travel on.
You might just be surprised if you bother.
They are not interested in the other side of the story.
ernie_lynch - Member[s]I like [/s]Bob Crow, [s]in fact he's my hero. Part of the reason I like him is 'cause he[/s] tells it as it is[s]. There's no spin from him, he's a Millwall supporter, [/s]and he doesn't give a toss[s] what you think of him Flashheart[/s]. He's there to fight [s]for his members and his industry[/s]. It's because there [b]are[/b][s]n't more[/s] people like him that we're in the shit.
FTFY. Bob Crow is a thug and a relic of (failed) 80s unionism. Even other unions have been distancing themselves from him for years. He refuses negotiation and withdraws labour at the drop of a hat.
I can see why the STW socialists would be drawn to him as the last bastion of their beliefs.
Both members of staff are off on paid indefinite leave, but would like to return to work. One of them argued with a manager on a picket line, which resulted in a campaign against him that led to where we are now. I believe (and I accept there is a chance this might be a 'simple' explanation) that Bob Crow and the union has accepted that both employees should face some form of disciplinary action, but that the current situation is wholly disproportional. The members would like to continue their work, rather that languish at home on full pay.
In the interests of fairness, Crow did get bitch-whipped a little bit on LBC yesterday morning. I was a bit disappointed...
What the RMT, not the media, say is the reason for the strike:
TUBE UNION RMT announced today that members have voted by almost two to one for strike action in a ballot of all train operator and instructor operator members in the on-going disputes over the victimisation of union activists including two driver members - Eamon Lynch and Arwyn Thomas - over their trade union activities. RMT will now consider the appropriate course of action.Â
Eamon Lynch, RMT Bakerloo Line drivers' health and safety rep, has been sacked by LU and although he remains on full pay following the union's victory on Eamon's behalf at an "interim relief" Employment Tribunal hearing the company has shown total contempt for the Tribunal process and have upheld his sacking. Interim relief is only ever granted by the Employment Tribunal where there is the clearest possible evidence that an employee has been dismissed on the grounds of their trade union activities. RMT is currently awaiting the outcome of Eamon's full tribunal hearing.
Â
Arwyn Thomas, a long-standing RMT activist and driver at Morden has been sacked on trumped-up disciplinary charges following unproven allegations made against him by strike breakers. Arwyn has been an RMT/NUR member for over 29 years and has held various positions in the union. Arwyn has also won an interim relief hearing at the Employment Tribunal on the grounds of his victimisation as an RMT activist and has been put back on full pay as a result.
Â
RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said:
Â
"This massive vote for action by tube drivers shows that they are well aware of the consequences of allowing our activists and safety reps to be picked off while we hear daily reports of breakdowns and failures on the network as a direct result of the very cuts that our members have been fighting.
Â
"The attack on Eamon Lynch and Arwyn Thomas is the clearest cut case of victimisation on the grounds of trade union activities that you will ever see and it's no wonder that the Employment Tribunal was swift to see through the management lies and grant both these members "Interim Relief" - an award which requires the strongest possible proof that their sackings were down to their union activities.
Â
"Eamon and Arwyn have been victimised for fighting cuts to jobs and services that would turn the tube into a death trap. This vote for action sends out the clearest signal that workers who stand up for tube safety will get the full support of RMT members.
TooTall iin TryingTooHard shocka!
I like also that Bob Crow has annoyed Tootall. 🙂
I can see why the STW socialists would be drawn to him as the last bastion of their beliefs.
Ooh, isn't it Socialist ideologies that have brought us free healthcare, education and stuff like that? Cos they weren't Selfservative ideas, were they? Hmm? No, they weren't.
Why don't you just go and live in America?
No wonder the country is a trllion pounds in debt when we have a system that allows two train drivers and a union rep to hold the Capital to ransome. 🙄
No wonder the country is a trllion pounds in debt when we have a system that allows two train drivers and a union rep to hold the Capital to ransome.
Have you been reading the Standard again?
The capital will get on with business for the days of the strikes. Yes, people will be inconvenienced, but "ransom"? What bollocks right wing rhetoric!
why not rejoice in the death throes of socialism too tall?
PS You may wish to wait till Thatcher has died to measure the extent of socialism in the UK
Goes off to prepare patriotic bunting
[img] http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSNTvO1jNP6FR2sop6wd28JCnzPARAirO93WPo6Gjbve5azWQ7d [/img]
I knew i could get DD to bite from a one liner, good old Londonderry boys.
I knew i could get DD to bite from a one liner, good old Londonderry boys.
Ah right, fair enough. In your hurry to get me to bite, you just wrote a load of bollocks. That's good.
I have no idea what you're going on about with the "londonderry" thing though...or are you just talking bollocks again?
Ho hum and London is such a happy place
Withdrawing your labour is a fundamental right otherwise we will become a 3rd world country
Ops might have missed the last couple of decades long hours poor pay high cost of living for the masses
Can someone explain this please:
"The RMT's announcement follows a 2-1 vote in favour of industrial action by union members in protest at the dismissal of a Northern line driver"
"only 29% of the 1,300 drivers balloted had voted in favour of strike action"
???
"The RMT's announcement follows a 2-1 vote in favour of industrial action by union members in protest at the dismissal of a Northern line driver""only 29% of the 1,300 drivers balloted had voted in favour of strike action"
Maybe lots of people didn't respond (as opposed to voting against the action) and they have not included those people in your first quotation?
Though I'm not a huge fan of Bob Crowe (ironic understatement), I do find it laughable that MP's who are elected with the active participation of roughly 30% of the voting population, are demanding that 100% of Trade Unionists turn out for strike ballots...
CPt knows the answer a low turnout like in all elections hence he was able to misrepreprsent the reality of the vote to fuel his anti union stance
For example the London mayoral election got a turnout of 48% which was the highest turnout so far but still less than 50% of the electorate with boris winning with less that the headline figure quoted here by Flashy. It did not make flashy oppose this result nor stop Boris suggesting that Unions should not strike without 50% of the electorate saying yes.
Spinning like this is one of the reasons peole do not enegage iwth politics and it is bad enought o se eit in career politicians without seeing it on a forum as well from the politically interested members of STW ...shamefulll and piss porr and it tirns manty peoel away from politics and acting which is a far biige rissue/problem.
As I said low turnouts is an issue in all politics and too use it to make a political point is glib and shortsighted as it can be used in all directions against all outcomes.
In this case of those who expressed an opinion they voted 2:1 in favour of action but with a low turnout.
TooTall - Memberernie_lynch - Member
[s] I like[/s] Bob Crow, [s]in fact he's my hero. Part of the reason I like him is 'cause he[/s] tells it as it is. [s]There's no spin from him, he's a Millwall supporter,[/s] and he doesn't give a toss [s]what you think of him Flashheart[/s]. He's there to fight [s]for his members and his industry[/s]. It's because there are[s]n't more[/s] people like him that we're in the shit.
FTFY. Bob Crow is a thug and a relic of (failed) 80s unionism. Even other unions have been distancing themselves from him for years. He refuses negotiation and withdraws labour at the drop of a hat.
I can see why the STW socialists would be drawn to him as the last bastion of their beliefs.
Posted 5 hours ago # Report-Post
Well TooTall you're the second person on this thread who wants to tell me how I think, but I'll stick with my original statement. Mind you, your post did make me smile and amused me, so thanks for that 8)
I particularly like the claim that Britain is in the shit because of people like Bob Crow.........so nothing to do with greedy incompetent bankers then ? 😀 And btw, how many people like Bob Crow do you know ?
I also found your reference to 'failed trade unionism' highly amusing. RMT membership increased by more than a third in the first five years of Bob Crow's leadership. Pretty impressive stuff by any standard, and it reflects his popularity based on the fact that he delivers.
And of course Bob Crow's detractors like yourself are the first to whinge and complain about the favourable wages and conditions which RMT members enjoy......now there's [i]failure[/i] for you ! 😀
And as for claim that he's a "thug", really, look into those baby-blue eyes and say that again
[img] 
?w=276&h=183[/img]
The more Bob Crow is despised by greedy selfish money-grabbing Tories who want to shaft and stitch up British workers, and the Tory press, the more I love the guy.
Conshystertives don't like people like Bob Crow cos strong unions mean businesses might actually have to pay workers decent wages and ensure safe working conditions and have proper workers rights and things like that.
I'm sure the likes of Flashy and Tootall would be only too happy if their employers started cutting their wages, increasing their hours, giving them poor working conditions etc...
As usual, we've got a couple of ignorant blinkered right-wingers who don't actually have any idea of the working conditions and situation of the people they feel so vitriolic towards. Because unless something affects them personally, like not being able to get to work on time, they really don't give a stuff about what affects others. Pure selfishness and a complete lack of empathy.
Ironic though how both of them enjoy many rights in their jobs because of the work done by UK trade unions though, innit?
this is why I HATE politics.
even those who talk about politics just act like politicians throwing petty insults at each other and repeating what everyone else has said.
I'd take an interest in these political threads if they didn't just end up with the same people attacking each other, trolling and winding each other up.
Surely Elfin these days workers rights and safe working environments are just as much protected by legislation as the unions.
[b][i]"Britain will remain with the most restrictive trade union laws anywhere in the western world"[/i][/b]
- Tony Blair 1997
Trade unions are the first line of defence against attacks on the rights of workers.
Surely Elfin these days workers rights and safe working environments are just as much protected by legislation as the unions.
Only brought about - by Labour governments, the Tories never have - because of collective union representation
To idly stand by and let it look after itself would be folly
Well, as Labour was in power for a number of years, the volume of health and safety legislation was obviously going to increase, as before with the Tories and some rather important landmark legislation during their stay in office.
Its also interesting that the level and quality of health and safety enforcement fell during Labour's latest stay in office.
Perhaps you'd like to let us know what piece of landmark social legislation the Tories have ever brought in?
clue, it's a very short list indeed
Perhaps you'd like to let us know what piece of landmark social legislation the Tories have ever brought in
the Poll tax?
I was specifically talking about health and safety legislation, but never mind.
Many argue that Crow is a failed relic of militant unionism. Yet he has presided over a significant growth in membership, and has been highly effective in protecting the terms and conditions of his members. Like him or not, that is what he is paid and elected to do.
Its also interesting that the level and quality of health and safety enforcement fell during Labour's latest stay in office.
yes it is an interestng assertion that you have made there. Do you feel like adding any evidence to the assertion or is just saying it enough for you? You have offered nothing to convince me of the merits of your point of view.
or do we live in a world of responsibility without accountability?
Judging by the number of senior staff in the banking sector who are still in jobs despite having presided over the wrecking of the global economy, I'd say the evidence pointed strongly to the answer being [i]"yes"[/i]
Junkyard - no FACTS at my fingertips i'm afraid, just ancedotal evidence from myself and my H&S colleagues over the last 20 years.
Yes scamper, as a health and safety professional I'd be VERY interested to hear your opinion.
Go on then
piss porr and it tirns manty peoel
Junkyard, when you go off on one you start speaking lolcat! Awesome!
Train drivers earn £10k on average more than a nurse. Nursing must be a doddle. I suppose that is why they don't strike all the time, too scared of losing their cushy number.
Train drivers earn £10k on average more than a nurse. Nursing must be a doddle. I suppose that is why they don't strike all the time, too scared of losing their cushy number.
I think nurses [u]should[/u] have more militant representation. Politicians are more than happy to pander to public opinion by saying what a marvellous job nurses do and how vital they are - perhaps they should be made to back it up with more cash?
Doesn't mean the train drivers are worth less though.
Actually, as token right winger nutter here - I have no problem at all with RMT's actions in this case - in fact I think that protecting their members statutory employment rights and backing them to the hilt if an employer is breaking those rules (whilst themselves also sticking to the rules) is more than fair, and 100% what a Union should be doing, I'll defend that to the death.
Thats entirely different from a union playing politics and trying to usurp the role of democratically elected governments by militant action, and trying to hold the nation hostage over payrises.