[Closed] Bearing, bearings, bearings, Who thinks they know the score?

Kevevs - Member
anyone want a Kelloggs nutrigrain morning bar?

Is it virtual?

This is bonkers.

For the record though.. Full compliment in frame and headset bearings, caged everywhere else.
Most headsets take 36x45 degree 1 1/8" ACB's which are available in stainless for about £2.50 from your local bearing factor. Just read them off the numbers from your current bearings and they'll supply.
You can get almost anything that's available on ebay for the same price locally. Strange that, isn't it?

"Chinese bearings"

Take 15 years to arrive, cost $13m and get extremely poor reception when they finally arrive. Also, in the meantime all of the bearings but one will have been replaced with other hired bearings.

james

What kind of frame do you run and what kind of caged bearings. To get at the bearings on a caged bearing the water / dirt needs to get through the cage. Plus enduro max a pregreased bearings, so you would expect them to last longer.

I'm betting you run a frame manufacturer that uses rubbish caged bearings. There is a world of difference between top end bearings and the rubbish that commencal, specialized, giant, etc all run.

SV I got banned from mtbrider.com for winding up SteveL aka BapMan. I think the exact comment was, Point taken I will leave your little kingdom as I found it bapman, in capable hands. That said if he's trying to wind me up I am most certainly winding him up! which is only fair.

http://www.mtbrider.com/search.php?do=process

I don't 'run' a frame, I ride/own/have a frame

How exactly can't mud/water get to the ball bearings because of the presence of a cage? The cage surely seperates the ball bearings, not seal them?

When the cage collapses, the ball bearings end up on one side of the bearing though, something that happens all of a sudden, often mid-ride. At least a full complement will hold itself together when worn, it may have noticable play due to worn ball bearings/races but it'll take more hammer before it fails like a 'caged' will?
IME, the (worn) full complements seize up, with the (worn) 'caged' type, the cage collapses

Not my ****ing rules so I aint playing buy them, as for being an annoying **** to other users. That's the whole point Bapman, your minions wound me up so I wound you up, Savve!!!

Wrong a cheapo bearing of the caged variety will fail sooner not a pregreased performance bearing. The cage surrounds the bearing hence the term cage. dirt and water will therefore find it harder to get at the bearings.

What manufacturer of frame do you have?

Kaesae,

Just for the record, that is me in SFB's pic on the third post. That bike has been ridden through rivers of shite every week for four years and the original bearings are doing just fine 😀

well, I bought a shitload of nutrigrain bars, they are the real deal, from tescos at a bargain price. they are the real shit no doubt, 8 for £3.00 posted. Or I will eat them myself (virtually) and save you postage for £2.00. cheers!

ps. Multiples of 8 only. I bought a shitload.

Marin_Maketh_The_Man

With KP5A aircraft grade bearings made specifically for high and low altitudes, very hot and cold weather and extreme conditions.

I wonder why?

"The cage surrounds the bearing hence the term cage. dirt and water will therefore find it harder to get at the bearings."

I start to wonder if you've ever seen a cage bearing.

It must be difficult "testing" all these bearings when you can't ride...

I start to wonder if you've ever seen a cage bearing.

I start to wonder about the guys sanity!

Kaesae - You either were winding SteveB up or AndyL not SteveL, either way Steve runs a very successful shop (you know a business) and Andy had you nailed on technical questions you never answered and indeed avoided answering.

Got any bearings for an Ifor williams?

Is that a high or low altitude Ifor Williams??

sv only in the mind of a fool could the questions not have been answered. As I said and continue to say.

1) There is a perfomrance gain to be had from performance top end bearings, it's the reason a lot of race teams run them Stendec who do the race tuning for the Intense race team and also Giant and Specialized's race mechanic. All who I have spoken to at length during my research and who have confirmed the fact. If you wish confirmation call them yourself and simply ask. It is also the reason that good quality performance bearings are used by the car industry as the maintenance time offsets any benefit from saving money using cheapo rubbish.

2) It is possible to improve the performance on MTB frames over and above the standard factory spec, That having a rear end action that is stiff but smooth in it's action without any flex is a good thing. Just like running a through axle on your wheels will eliminate flex so running performance bearings will do the same thing, The action will be stiff but smooth.

3) Caged bearings have a good portion of the bearings surface covered by the actual cage and will more likely than not have grease trapped between the cage and bearing surface. I would think just as anyone who has an IQ above that of the average donkey, that this fact will make it harder for the dirt to sit up against the bearing and sieze it, with the cage in the way of the dirt.

4) This isn't actually aimed at you to be honest as I believe that no matter what answers I give you will be man enough to admit when your wrong, or smart enough to know you are. There will be some who have the intellect to understand.

northwind you start to wonder if someone who sells caged bearings for part of their income has ever actually seen a caged bearing? Genius.

Kaesae please stop this nonsense. Your claims are exactly that, claims. And they are wrong. You need to think about what you are writing and take a step back.

Shame you felt the need to get personal kaesae - but it's obviously a good way of diverting attention from my (unanswered) point.

I've not stated anything that relies on my experience of bearings and IDGAS what you think of me. If you put yourself forward as someone who knows everything about bearings with stuff like this:

that this fact will make it harder for the dirt to sit up against the bearing and sieze it, with the cage in the way of the dirt.

This sort of reminds me of the bi-polar messianic rantings of a schizophrenic cult leader.

"3) Caged bearings have a good portion of the bearings surface covered by the actual cage and will more likely than not have grease trapped between the cage and bearing surface. I would think just as anyone who has an IQ above that of the average donkey, that this fact will make it harder for the dirt to sit up against the bearing and sieze it, with the cage in the way of the dirt."

Stopped talking about the cage keeping water out? Good show, you're halway through a succesful climbdown, that's a useful skill to learn, keep going.

This is turning into a very amusing thread. Please continue feeding the troll...

: P

I'm just annoyed nobody seemed to get my Guns N Roses joke, it probably just looks like I was babbling like a mental person.

ah, the Chinese bearings one - I get it! Sorry for being so slow. And yes, I did think you were babbling like a mental person. 😉 Mind you, on this thread you wouldn't be the first...

: P

Photo of a caged bearing, the surface of the actual balls is covered to a large extent by the cage and of course the races. For water or dirt to get at the balls it has to get past or through the cage.

Water will cause rust yes but seizing of bearings is far more likely to occur due to dirt sitting up against the actual bearings which of course full compliment bearings are far more susceptible to than caged.
[IMG] [/IMG]

You say insulting I say pointing out the obvious character flaws of STW members.

Here is my point I will make it clear and as accurate as possible.
What I do to these frames and the performance benefits my kits give a bike have been testified to by the riders that use them.

Not only local riders who have had their frames serviced but also riders that buy them through ebay.

If my theory and idea works ladies and gets the job done, How can anyone in their right mind claim that I am wrong.

The riders that use the bikes confirm that what I claim is the case, they are the ones most suited to determine if I am wrong not you.

Get out of that, if you can!!!

what bearings would i need for a giant trance x and what cost?

Kaesae - so you say your customers say you are the best, therefore you are the best?

You should be in politics...

Still not answered my point.

So, just to get this straight, [b]someone who sells caged bearings[/b] is trying to convince us, in purely anecdotal and not particularly verifiable terms, that having small fragments of metal in between the balls (though not completely surrounding the balls) somehow prevents the ingress of dirt and water, and not only that but having fewer balls to share the bearing load is in some way a good thing that increases the life of the bearing?

...

No thanks.

: P

He is almost right, though for the wrong reasons. Caged bearings are a bit better at dealing with contamination than FC bearings. Not because the cages keep out dirt (they only locate the bearings, it's seals you need to keep out dirt) but because the cage and the space between the balls it creates gives the dirt somewhere to sit. In a FC bearing the dirt is more likely to eat away at the bearings/races.

You need to remember though kaesae, there are primarily two types of people on here, engineers and IT folk. This leaves you with two things to consider:

1) Engineers know more about bearings than you do

2) Everyone else (including the IT folk) may or may not know more about bearings than you. They do still know that you come across as a complete tool though, hence no-one really liking you very much.

Well said! And that's starting to make sense. But otherwise, cheap bearings are still cheap bearings, even if they've got more space around them for the cack to hide.

: P

Is SteveL the mutant off spring of SteveB and myself?

[img] [/img]

did you mean...
[img] [/img]?

: P

So have we finished with bearings yet. How about talking about the merits of dustcaps , I prefer a finer quality dustcap not the crappy Taiwanese made or god forbid Chinese, no, much better to nick the German type ones as found on German BMW's with a built in air release mechanism......yadayadabroootdutduuutbryngdingding...........

[b]spaztard [/b]

[b]n.[/b] An individual who possesses the qualities of both a spaz and a tard; [b]one who overreacts in a moronic manner[/b]. Credit belongs to Canadian K. Fellows for coining the term in 2000.

[i]Calm down, you f*cking spaztard![/i]

kenneththecurtain - Member
He is almost right, though for the wrong reasons. Caged bearings are a bit better at dealing with contamination than FC bearings. Not because the cages keep out dirt (they only locate the bearings, it's seals you need to keep out dirt)

when exactly did I say that cages keep out dirt or water?

kaesae i respect your tenacity, i havent read the rest of the thread tbh

i know nothing about bearings.

or bottom brackets for that matter.

i need to replace my bb i run a raceface evolve xc crankset (2008/9 ish) with a self extracting allen bolt set up.

some questions

1) what type of bb do i need? is it mega exo or something, is that a generic name or does each manufacturer havetheir own?

2) do you do external cups in the "hope red" colour?

3) which bearings would i need for high mileage low mud conditions, how much are they and how do i buy them?

cheers

tim

timdrayton@live.co.uk

andyl46 - Member
Is SteveL the mutant off spring of SteveB and myself?

Lets see this hokey cokey then

No SteveL is my pet name for Bapman do you want to hear yours?

3) Caged bearings have a good portion of the bearings surface covered by the actual cage and will more likely than not have grease trapped between the cage and bearing surface. I would think just as anyone who has an IQ above that of the average donkey, that this fact will make it harder for the dirt to sit up against the bearing and sieze it, with the cage in the way of the dirt.

when exactly did I say that cages keep out dirt or water?

There you go. Saved you looking too hard. FAIL.

markd
Sorry can you elaborate I still don't see what on earth you are talking about. The question was when did I say the cages keep out dirt or water?

wgaf

"Photo of a caged bearing, the surface of the actual balls is covered to a large extent by the cage and of course the races. For water or dirt to get at the balls it has to get past or through the cage."

thats where you said it .... im with kenny the curtain on this one ... kaesae is right on some of his points but for the wrong reasons ....and on other points he is just being a complete tool. some of them defy beggars belief as to how he came up with them as being benifits

I'm guessing you've never actually run any top end bearings and you certainly haven't run any of my bearings. Good luck with the cheapo bearings.

Hey Tim.
The answer depends on a few factors. Firstly budget, the best bearings to run in a BB or Hub would be full black silicon nitride with a suitable cage made of a material that is self lubricating. I would also grease the bearings up with the right viscosity grease so that it lubricates them but also seals them from the ingress of water and dirt, whilst not affecting the rotational properties of the bearings.

Same thing for Chromium or Stainless steel bearings, Can you tell me the exact size of bearings you want to run and I'll see what I can do to replace them with something suitable but not too expensive.
Probably better to simply email me, Not sure if you can replace Faceface bearings with off the shelf bearings you might need to get them from the manufacturer.

Hello Stuart nicholson. Got a bit carried away with my gnat swatting.

Why skulk when you can swagger I always say and nothing I have said has been proven wrong yet.

As for me saying you haven't run Fag bearings or SKF in your BB, can you tell me how much they cost in the 6805 sizing?

Last time i bought a quality bearing was a few years back and they set me back (if i remeber rightly) around £12 per 6805. Og course that proves nothing as i could have quite easily got an internet price for the bearings.

And im not talking about skulking...you can be confident and back a product without being arrogent about it...you sound like you think your bearings are better than top quality industry leaders (like SKF).

Anyway,

just wonder how much a set (2) of your 6805 bearings are and how long you expect them to last?

Should add...max bearings are designed for radial loads. They wear under axial loading just as much as caged bearings however, caged bearings have the advantage of placing an equal pressure on all the bearings. For me there is no point in max bearings.

Hello Stuart.
Sorry I just find it funny winding up the handbag squad. A do get a bit carried away sometimes.

BETD/goldtec and the enduro max bearings they sell are good quality bearings and yes they are full compliment , they will by far outlast cheapo jap bearings or most other industry bearings. But they aren't the best by a long shot.

To be fair BETD are a great company and their bearings are far better quality than the junk manufacturers like specialized and most others sell.

I agree though from my research the full compliment bearing idea is fundamentaly flawed.

As for my 6805 2rs bearings you would be looking at about £6 per bearing fully pregreased, if you want SKF about £12 each fully pregreased. As for longevity I would be very surprised if they didn't last a year. However if you are using an external BB and the frames BB mounting shell isn't faced then a lot less than that.

give me a shout via email and I'll see what I can do.

I would only run the cheapo bearings if you can't get quality ones at a good price.

A couple of questions. You say that your BB must be faced. Why, if external BB's come with delrin washers that will take out the majority of the deformity? Why would that be a factor?
Surely any bearings, wether cheap or expensive, rely on the seals stopping water or dirt getting through? If you are removing the seals to add your super duper grease, aren't you interfering with the integrity and fit of the seals? Do you take into account the different temps grease has to work with when installed into a hub?
Have you tried cheap bearings with super duper grease? The only difference I can think of between cheap and expensive bearings are that the tolerances are better on the more expensive bearings.

Curly68 - Member

You madam are a troll!!!

Closer tolerances less ware, less ware they ware less, last longer yes! Savve?

In my opinion, pivot bearings do not need any high quality, tight tolerance bearings. They rotate at low speeds for maybe 30 degrees then back again. Once dirt gets in, it doesn't matter how well machined the bearings are, wear will accelerate rapidly. Seals are therefore most important, and packing the bearing with grease will help keep water out, but once the dirt is in there, the grease and dirt will form a grinding paste.

So my conclusion would be buy cheap bearings, pre grease them with good quality grease and replace them when done.

Just a quick question Kael, if using high quality bearings is so important then why do you even sell lesser versions?

Hey Andy.

Come on sunshine lighten up. oh hokey hokey cokey, oh hokey hokey cokey oh hokey hokey cokey knees bent arms stretched ra ra ra! My version of that old classic.

Bikers ask for stuff I get it for them, me I prefer working on bikes servicing and the like, but hey I dare to dream and chase one even now!

The frames pay for or did pay for my research and tooling. They also paid for the budget bearing range, which in turn paid for the performance range.

Not everyone can afford expensive bearings and I like to give bikers choices. The whole point of KaTec is to get resources and benefits into the lives of those involved.

The simple fact is the budget and performance ranges are still in their infancy, in terms of development.

Loose tolerances will cause accelerated ware, each individual bump will damage the races and actual balls. Although the amount of damage is miniscule it is accumulative, is it not andyl?

All my pivots have bushings

:finger:

ChunkyMTB

up your @SS

The bearing will be destroyed due to dirt ingress long before the wear caused by the rotation has any effect. Hence the tolerances make no real difference. Simple as that.

Think I might squirt some nice fresh grease into me zerks just for shits and giggles, it's been a while. Who needs bearing sellers eh?

Chunky... you mean I don't have to take out all those horrid bushes and replace them with performance bearings?

Phew...

;o)

😀

andyl46 - Member
The bearing will be destroyed due to dirt ingress long before the wear caused by the rotation has any effect. Hence the tolerances make no real difference. Simple as that.

Not rotation, haven't you been paying attention? the small impacts cause play in the bearings over time, which is part of the argument for full compliment bearings. Dirt ingress causes the bearing to seize and rust to collapse, However actual ware/damage to the balls/races causes play to the bearings.

As I said the loose tolerances on the budget bearings causes them to burn out quicker. As soon as there is a small amount of play the races and actual ball bearings will see accelerated damage or ware occur, will they not?

That's "wear".

loose tolerances? is that when bearings get the shits?

ballsofcottonwool

for a brain?

MEEHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA MEEHAHA laughs at own joke.

Translation into scottish please!

Come on Kael - bed time now.

If a bearing firm choose to use certain percentage of grease to each bearing for whatever reasons, why do you pop them open and over fill them? why not replace the seals with better quality ones?

MR mills NO not for me sunshine. Unless you're a good looking bird with an idiotic an taste in user names.
Try singlespeedstu, he might be interestd in the hard option and a bit of extra hairy @rse action.

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/does-anyone-on-here-have-any-damaged-frames-lying-around-they-would-like-to-sell#post-1352929

martinxyz why not simply have them made with the right grease fill and seals in the fasctory?

😉 's @ mr_mills

No thanks!! I prefer gingers. Like Kael 😀

It was worth a shot. 😆

Kaesae - I think we've exhausted this topic now. Will you start another thread please?

(And this time make it wacky will yer?)

So the bearings now fail from impact damage on the races? Fine, use full complement bearings to spread the loads over a larger area and minimise this wear.

But you dont do you?

So they fail from another mode of failure, which in every bearing I've seen is down to the grease being displaced, corrosion occuring on the balls and races so the bearings become gritty or seize. High tolerence bearings will have no effect on this mode of failure. High tolerance bearings are only really needed in high load or high rotation speed applications, and mountainbike pivots are neither.

balls to this
cant believe so much cr@p can be spouted about greasy balls

did you do all your research on the internetz ....

and FWIW I've used these guys a few times and found their bearings great:
[url] http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/ [/url]

: P

That's a lot of tags.

I honestly have no idea what bearings I use. They all seem to be hidden in the bike somewhere. Everything runs smoothly with no problems, so I guess they're quite happy. Threads like this make me worry about some people.

Threads like this make me worry about some people.

given the way I treat my bike I have to replace bearings quite often, so I'm interested. I'd be more worried about people who coddle their bikes for fear of wearing something out 🙂
Not coddling:
[url= http://www.bogtrotters.org/rides/2008/11oct/DSC_0962.jp g" target="_blank">http://www.bogtrotters.org/rides/2008/11oct/DSC_0962.jp g"/> [/img][/url] (that's a bridleway BTW)

Mr barns that is yet another superb photo and the focused but grinning face captures the whole essence of the biking spirit.

Do you do threads with reviews that show people where the best ride spots are including maps and travel info etc.

Will you do a couple Simon? show us where the ride spots are you go to, on the map and tell us what they're like?

hello Pierre.

What kind of bearings do you prefer also which manufacturer and how do you get the seals out and back in. Can you also tell me how you remove the old grease and install the new grease and what kind of grease you use?

Look forward to hearing from you or not!