Ban The Burka?

Or just hordes of people wearing full body covering which looks like a burka – I wouldn’t want to demonise Muslims for something anybody can do.

Or will they? It may not be hordes, but there’s evidence it’s happening and no suggestion the banks are about to ban it. If it did become more widespread do you think the banks really would ban it just as simply as they banned motorbike helmets?

Given we’re purportedly discussing the burka, is there anything similar to that in what is proscribed for Jewish women, or is there rather less effective difference in what is proscribed for men and women than in Islam?

Junky you are rambling so much I think you must be drunk – no ? Up to your trolling inventing your own pantomime villan to boo and hiss again ? No one of the Jewish or Christian faith is covering their face, man or woman whilst out and about. No matter how orthodox. No one here said Jewish women where being repressed. Remember the Jewish religion predates Islam by 3000 years and its still more enlightened with regards to women and women’s rights. What we are saying is that Islam and in particular more traditional forms of it absolutely do repress women.

Well, for once I find myself agreeing with Jambalaya. I massively dislike the Burqa and suspect that there are far more women either forced or culturally encouraged to wear it than actually choose to wear it.

But the way the French are dealing with Muslim community makes Trump look enlightened.

Whilst we’re not in any doubt that there are factions of Islam that repress women, it’s absolute nonsense to issue a blanket statement..

All muslim families that I’ve met have a very matriarchal set up when at home, although on the surface the family roles appear quite different to our firmly entrenched western views

I think it’s fairly disengenious to argue that Islam doesn’t have a woman problem though….and in fact it does a fairly large diservice to those women trying to escape religiously inspired lunacy.

The west has it issues – spousal murder etc, but there isn’t a cultural acceptance of covering your women head to toe, honour killings and polygamy.

I find the denial these are an issue, so that one can engage in virtue signalling, frankly a bit sickening.

f it did become more widespread do you think the banks really would ban it just as simply as they banned motorbike helmets?

Yes because they take security pretty seriously in banks

is there rather less effective difference in what is proscribed for men and women than in Islam?

Both are restrictive , and more so to women than men
I guess we could discuss which is the most repressive if we want to do
What we cannot do is pretend only one is. well we can but only ifwe dont really care about the facts.
In general I am not sure whether being forced to wear a wig and a hat is more or less repressive than wearing a veil. – do you wish to argue eithersi good ? Either is not “repressive” to women or that either dont have different rules for men as for woemn?

can also appreciate that more “orthodox” Islam operates a far more restrictive dress code for women than it does for men and in that regard there isn’t a freedom of choice

can also appreciate that more “orthodox” Judaism operates a far more restrictive dress code for women than it does for men and in that regard there isn’t a freedom of choice

Bioth are true. Jamby only cares about one of them- what about you?

I’m fairly sure how I feel about that one.

Bioth are true. Jamby only cares about one of them- what about you?

I care about both if it really is true that both are true and equivalent. But it seems that only one proscribes a face covering for women, whilst both proscribe head and body covering for women, and Orthodox Judaism also proscribes head covering and specific clothing for men (I have no idea what is proscribed for men in Orthodox Islam – genuinely interested in being enlightened). ISTM that there is rather less effective difference in the clothing proscribed for men and women in Judaism simply because of the face covering issue. It is after all mainly the face covering which makes quite normal non-bigoted people uncomfortable.

Though I note that from my (limited) understanding of dress codes in Orthodox Judaism that there isn’t actually a huge difference in the level of restriction between the sexes – are you suggesting that the ubiquitous black suit and head covering for men isn’t proscribed, or that what the women have to wear is in some way more restrictive than that. I’ll admit my ignorance of the specifics, but nothing I’ve seen mentioned for women seems vastly more restrictive than that.

I’m certainly no more uncomfortable about proscribed clothing for one religion than I am for any other – simply assessing it based on the specifics. The main issue here is one of face covering, something which appears to be unique to Orhtodox Islam. If there’s another religion which specifies that then I’ll feel just the same about that religion. Though I note that I have no interest in banning any form of clothing (or lack of it) anybody wants to wear.

I dont drink and clealry i cannot compete with that sort of temperate and well constructed logical and robust argument#frowns- why do you keep saying pantomime villain ? no has ever called you this – why have you developed your own meme for yourself. Most odd

No one of the Jewish or Christian faith is covering their face, man or woman whilst out and about.

Thanks god I never claimed they were and if i did i would be embarrased i got it so wrong

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_burqa_sect

wrong twice, impressive

No matter how orthodox. No one here said Jewish women where being repressed.

I said they were in pretty much the same way as Islamic women were. Its impossible to deny this the best we can do is discuss whose “£repression” is the worst not whether it happens – after all both have a more restrictive dress code for females than men – unless you wish to argue the men must wear wigs. DO you wish to argue this ?why is the islam way repression and the Judaism way not?

What we are saying is that Islam and in particular more traditional forms of it absolutely do repress women.

Thats fine, and i dont disagree as all the abrhamic religions are sexist and patriarchal. All we need now is for you to accept the JUdaism does as well

I can also appreciate that more “orthodox” Islam operates a far more restrictive dress code for women than it does for men and in that regard there isn’t a freedom of choice

the same is true for Judaism – the rest is just the usual STW froth

I think it’s fairly disengenious to argue that Islam doesn’t have a woman problem though.

I think it hard to argue any culture does not have a woman problem be it rape victims, sexual assaults, glass ceilings, lower wages, less freedoms etc. We may be “better” than them but no culture is truly egalitarian.

Off course i think the treatment of woman by the religious is poor. the only point i differ on is that I think that there is very little difference between the orthodox of judaism and Islam. However one lot we demonise and the other lot you are a racist if you criticise them.

I am enjoying some of the worst dressed men in the United Kingdom discuss the rights and wrongs of what someone who has nothing to do with them wears.

Let us not forget why the burka is worn.

Not for anything to do with you, so why care?

it seems that only one proscribes a face covering for women,

No quranic reference for this- Wel mohammed wifes but its different and does not say cover the face it says

to draw their cloaks (veils) over their bodies.

It comes from hadith or practice and the fact it is not universally practiced shows its usage is debatable

whilst both proscribe head and body covering for women, and Orthodox Judaism also proscribes head covering and specific clothing for men (I have no idea what is proscribed for men in Orthodox Islam – genuinely interested in being enlightened)

Dress modestly basically though, like orthodox judaism, its gives different rules/interpretation as to what this means for men as to women

ISTM that there is rather less effective difference in the clothing proscribed for men and women in Judaism simply because of the face covering issue.

possibly and yes they are different but the point is they BOTH have different rules for men as for women. I feel like this is a bit like going who is the most racist is it the EDL or the BNP. Neither Is good is my point though some only want to see one as racist/oppressove.

It is after all mainly the face covering which makes quite normal non-bigoted people uncomfortable.

and quite possibly why racists empathise this point so much
TBH i have no real idea why folk care, It does not bother me in the slightest re face.
Why do you care ? Genuine Q btw why is it so important we all talk here endlessly and no one sees anyones faces. Is this restricting us in some way ?

Sure – that’s another debate though – but it’s certainly something which is part of the culture of Islam but not part of the culture of any other religion (apart from a small sect only found in Israel).

ISTM that there is rather less effective difference in the clothing proscribed for men and women in Judaism simply because of the face covering issue.

possibly and yes they are different but the point is they BOTH have different rules for men as for women. I feel like this is a bit like going who is the most racist is it the EDL or the BNP.[/quote]

<google search for pictures>
Lots of things have different rules for men and women. I’ve done a bit of research and it still seems to me that there’s not a huge effective difference in the requirements for Jewish men and women. I note that there is no requirement for Orthodox women to wear a wig, simply a hair covering and hats, scarves or snoods are all used, whilst men are also required to cover their heads. In fact it appears that in some Conservative synagogues women are requested to wear a head covering simply as a gesture of equality with men who are required to wear a head covering.

If anything here, the question isn’t which is worse, Islam or Judaism, but whether there’s actually a big issue of repression at all in Judaism (any more than there is in any other religion without dress codes or indeed in general society – I’m really struggling to see their dress code as being the big issue). We could of course debate this, but it wouldn’t advance the general point very much.

There is no doubt that in Islam the face covering is something which provides a quite clear difference in the dress codes, something which has a significant effect on the interaction with society. Is there really anything so significant in the Jewish dress code?

TBH i have no real idea why folk care, It does not bother me in the slightest re face.
Why do you care ? Genuine Q btw why is it so important we all talk here endlessly and no one sees anyones faces. Is this restricting us in some way ?

I always imagine your face when I’m typing 😉

Though I possibly phrased that wrong – it doesn’t really bother me at all, but I am bothered by the repression issue and that it certainly is restrictive on those wearing that sort of dress.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/01/muslim-women-veil-integrate-study

Interesting take on it that is counter intuitive

Gotta love science eh for what how it cuts through our prejudice and bias – it surprised me as well so not a dig at anyone but i suspect few of us would think empirical research would show this
Its on the front page of the guardian I was not googling for articles – I make this point only because i moan at others for confirmation bias it was simply serendipitous rather than indicative of any research in my part

A veil is seen as a genuine expression of a woman’s religiosity. Paradoxically, it is the women who are engaging with the modern world who appear to rely on the veil to signal to others that they will not succumb to the temptations of modern urban life,” he added.

Diego Gambetta, the report’s other co-author, agreed. “Contrary to the populist cant that seems now dominant in Europe, veiling could be a sign of more rather than less integration.

“Highly religious women who have more native friends and live in areas dominated by natives use the veil to keep their pious reputation while being integrated,” said Gambetta, a professor of sociology and an official fellow of Nuffield College, University of Oxford. “Banning or shunning veiling would deprive them of a means that allow them more opportunity for integration rather than marking their differences.”

You snipped this rather important bit:

We conjecture

Correlation does not imply causation and all that. All that waffle is simply their interpretation of the reasons and doesn’t appear to be supported at all by the evidence, which is simply evidence of correlation.

Here’s my interpretation:
“highly religious” women are subject to pressure from (male) members of their close social group to wear the veil, which increases with modernising forces. This is part of the repression, not an indication of their freedom to choose.

Of course I have no evidence that is the reason, but it’s just as valid as their interpretation of the data.

Looking at the abstract, I see nothing to support the claims in the headline or sub-headline (though they do of course both include the word “may” – well muslim women may wear the veil because it blocks some of the smell of modern life, who knows?)

I always imagine your face when I’m typing

as you have seen it then surely its remembering 😉
I picture you unicycling typing on a tablet 😛

whether there’s actually a big issue of repression at all in Judaism

I disagree its about which abrhamic faiths oppress women the most
I suspect we would all agree it goes Islam Judaism Christianity with none of them actually achieving equality.
I also think its pretty hard to argue none of them are repressive to women – all the religious leaders are men – though the christians are slowly addressing this and fracturing their church in the process

I just struggle with the folk who think its only ISlam that is shit to women and then ignore other religions that re also discriminatory

You never explained why the face was so important – its a geunine Q

It seems that women – married- have to cover their hair and men wear a hat
you could argue these are similar or different as you see fit
I think its clear the restriction on women is greater though there are restrictions for both so its less of a difference than in Islam- who is the most sexist basically However it is DEFINITELY different rules for women than for men which was the original point way back when this side bar started.

you snipped this rather important bit:

Not deliberately and I do apologise for doing such a small cut and paste job , next time i will add two more paragraphs just to be certain its not out of context 😉

I’m certainly not suggesting that at all, but we were discussing dress codes, and however much you might try and argue it I think most of us agree that in Islam the dress code is far more repressive to women (compared to that for men) than it is in any other religion once face covering comes in (I don’t personally think the hijab is a big deal one way or another or significantly different to other religions).

You never explained why the face was so important – its a geunine Q

In a more general sense? Because it’s a basic part of “face to face” social interaction. Sure there is a lot of non face to face interaction nowadays, but it’s always missing something – you know as well as I do the limits of this place and how easy it is to get into heated pointless arguments because we lack some of the normal social cues 😉 If your face is covered in day to day life then you’re always missing out on that.

It seems that women – married- have to cover their hair and men wear a hat
you could argue these are similar or different as you see fit

Indeed – as I’ve said a few times, I’m really not seeing a huge difference. But the point is it is debatable – is women wearing a veil and men not in any way similar? No it’s not a question of which is more sexist, it’s a question of one being debatably sexist and one being quite clearly sexist.

Not deliberately

I wasn’t accusing you of so doing (apologies if I appeared to be) but it does somewhat change the context of those claims – I think I’ve sufficiently explained why those claims are built on sand. ( 🙂 – in the absence of direct face to face contact that will have to do)

TooTall – Member

Not for anything to do with you, so why care?

Because I care about other people than myself.

It’s a tad ironic that women cyclists fought for the right to wear ‘rational dress’ over 100 years ago and we now have cyclists justifying restrictive and oppressive dress for women. What next, a bikeini?

When I’ve travelled to ME countries I was always amazed by how all these women seem to have made the same choice for themselves.

Who can blame the French really, all those people covering their faces causing trouble

One of the things that seperates the percieved liberal west from the oppressive nations were are complaining about is the freedom to dress how you choose

With regard to the beach those chosing not to sit and burn themselves for the entire afternoon are probably making the right choice with regard to skin cancer.

It’s a tad ironic that women cyclists fought for the right to wear ‘rational dress’ over 100 years ago and we now have cyclists justifying restrictive and oppressive dress for women. What next, a bikeini?

The fight for Rational Dress was a fight for women to be able to wear whatever they like. The fight for burkas etc is equally a fight for women to wear whatever they like.

Sure, in some countries, women are forced to cover themselves up. But in some countries men are forced to grow beards. Does that mean in this country every man growing a beard is oppressing themselves and should be made to shave it off?

Burkini banning is just daft.
Integration both ways is highly preferable and much more likely to work.
The ability to see the face is reassuring to many westerners even if it can be assured it shouldn’t be. It is.
Really tricky issue but ultimately I respect the rules of the countries I visit our I don’t go. Home grown burka wearers are super tricky.

For all I know allan23 has a wealth of experience and knowledge, hence providing him with an opportunity to respond.

Quite a wealth of experience and knowledge thank you.

providing him with an opportunity to respond to the obvious troll.

Fixed it again, you missed some words out.

we now have cyclists justifying restrictive and oppressive dress for women

We have cyclists challenging this ignorant stereotype and suggesting that the solution to this is not for us to impose a restrictive and oppressive dress code for women to free from them from the oppression of a restrictive and oppressive dress code.
No one is justifying it they are saying that women are free to wear what they please and I wont fall into the incredibly lazy and ignorant trope that every single muslim woman who dresses like that has been forced to for she falls under the yoke of a man who oppresses her. Its ignorant nonesese

I wonder how many folk who pontificate on the Burka have ever actually spoken to woman about her choice to wear it ? Have you how extensive is your research?

I am wagering its less than one in a thousand who express this sort of view
This idea that every single Muslim female is a weak willed individual who is utterly under the control of a man is Just ignorant BS- its an acceptable form of racism that Jamby would not accept were Lefties to start saying it about Jews.

If your face is covered in day to day life then you’re always missing out on that

How many interactions do you have with women dressed like this per annum and to what extent were they so detailed that the lack of facial expression left you confused during your interaction
Truthfully has it ever been an actual problem for you in the real world or is it just a hypothetical problem that has never ever occurred

we now have cyclists justifying restrictive and oppressive dress for women

arguing that banning an outfit is a stupid idea =/= justifying opression.
Do you not think the government, in effect, introducing a dress code is repressive in itself?

It’s depressing that women think that they should wear a burka (or maybe in some cases forced or pressurised), it’s 2016 and they’re living in Europe. As said before integration is a two way street. I’m not in agreement with it as I see it as a form of opressive control over women.

Do you not think the government, in effect, introducing a dress code is repressive in itself?

Nah we are making women wear what we want to free them up only Islam is making them wear things to oppress them.
WHat are you some sort of ignorant apologist for terrorism and the oppression of women?

Whenever I see a lady in western society wearing a Burka, I don’t immediately connect it with religious belief and I would never associate it with modesty.

I see someone shouting “look at me, look at me, I’m different!”

People have been dressing to stand out from the crowd since clothes were invented.

Perhaps we should ban clothes?

so that one can engage in virtue signalling, frankly a bit sickening

lolirony

the question is this

are women that cover their faces being forced to do so?

If they are choosing to cover their faces then we would be oppressing them by removing that freedom of choice
so before we ban anything we should be answering the first question

if you can’t see this then you are as messed up as any other misogynist of any other faith

Please also remember that we have only given our own women liberty within the last century, and we did not give them liberty by removing rights

Are burka wearers also banned from wearing brown shoes? Or is that form of oppression restricted to “merchant bankers”?

When I see someone in a burka I sing the song from Mos Eisley Cantina in my head and get on with my day.

see a lady in western society wearing a Burka, I don’t immediately connect it with religious belief

yes and when i see someone dressed like a nun or as a priest i dont associate that with religious belief either

there is literally no connection between their religious views and their attire 😕
The same is true of all the muslims you see dressed like Muslims

Tom_W1987 – Member

I find the denial these are an issue, so that one can engage in virtue signalling

You seem like one of the good guys so I think it’s only fair to tell you, it’s completely impossible to use the term “virtue signalling” without having everyone who sees it think you’re a ****. It is an immutable law.

reading with interest some of the comments on this issue.
seems to be a misunderstanding over what a hijab/burka/niqab are:
this is a hijab

this is a burka

this is a niqab

as a muslim i dont agree with the niqab and i never will….but thats down to my interpretation on how a muslim woman should dress.
there is no text in the quran that instructs a woman to cover her face but the guidelines are for her to =dress with modesty and to cover her “adornments” to protect her modesty

And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, their brothers’ sons, their sisters’ sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.

it all boils down to how an individual interprets what those guidelines mean.
my wife wears a hijab and has a couple of burkas that he soemtimes wears….but i wouldnt be happy if she started wearing a niqab. she knows that but her interpretation is the same as mine and she also doesnt agree with the niqab
but if a muslim woman wants to wear a niqab through her own choice then fair enough but the problem is that its a very grey area as many feel they are doing it through free choice but really that choice is based on a misunderstood guideline
how a muslim woman dresses is no different to how a jewish woman dresses…it all depends on how moderate or orthodox you are in your religious practices and how you interpret the religious guidelines

dress with modesty and to cover her “adornments” to protect her modesty

That’s one of my issues with all religions, how come women have to protect their modesty, but men don’t?

It’s almost as if they were all written by men to keep women in their ‘place’.

allan23 – Member

Quite a wealth of experience and knowledge thank you.

Which bizarrely you are choosing to keep to yourself. 😆
Would you care to discuss the reasoning behind the burka allan?
Maybe you can teach me something. 🙂

Gonzy isnt a burqa the full face veil with a grill that covers the eyes as well?

both judaism and Islam expect the men to dress modestly as well – we have covered this in the thread

sobriety – Member

That’s one of my issues with all religions, how come women have to protect their modesty, but men don’t?

Because the devil only works through the woman to tempt the man, not the other way around.
Don’t blame religion, it’s that naughty misogynist devil!

monde – your picture is semi accurate. the abaya, chador, dupata and hijab are all head scarfs.
the abaya is one piece that has a single hole for the face…you can get it in varying lengths but it is usually worn with a burka gown.
the chador is actually a shawl and women tend to use a safety pin to secure it under the chin.
the dupata is actually a loosely worn variant of the hijab.
as for the burka…it is a long gown that is work=n to cover a womans body and is worn in addition to a headscarf…usually a chador, abaya or hijab.
the niqab is just the face veil. women who tend to wear the niqab also wear the burka and the common mistake is to assume the burka and niqab are the same thing.

both judaism and Islam expect the men to dress modestly as well – we have covered this in the thread

true

Gonzy all the definitions I had seen (and my understanding) is that a burka covers the face with just a slit for the eyes or even less showing a mesh.

Where are the photos of the Jewish people taken ? The only places I have ever heard of Jewish women being dressed like that is in very strict Muslim countries where all women of any faith are required to be covered. I can show you millions of images of women in Israel dressed as Western women would dress. One of the advocay groups was circulating photos of Musim women in Burkinis on the beech in Tel Aviv last week. It’s their choice to wear them and it’s permitted.

I have arranged a business trip to Saudi where I was told a female colleague would have to wear a burka in the street and have her hair covered at all times. That’s a rule of the country for religious reasons amd applied to all visitors irrespective of faith. Not surprisingly she decided not to join us