Bad actors stoking hate again (Southport Stabbings)

I don’t understand why anyone would take the risk of crossing the channel if you could stay in France or one of the other countries along the route.

just to be clear, you not understanding is a you problem not a them problem.

am pretty sure that would shut up the people attacking the plan at the start.

Nice idea. Have you seen the absolute dog’s abuse the coast guard and RNLI get for saving the lives of drowning migrants? The FB memes about machine gunning them? The knuckle draggers aren’t bothered about the stats or a few quid saved, they simply don’t want brown people to come here full stop. The thought of the state enabling that, even if it saved lives and money etc. would cause their tiny racist brains to explode.

I don’t understand why anyone would take the risk of crossing the channel if you could stay in France or one of the other countries along the route

The principle is a simple one; “push” gets people out a war zone, persecution, etc. and “pull” takes migrants to a particular country

A cheap B&B isn’t generally regarded as a “pull” for migrants and so a stay on the Bibby Stockholm isn’t a deterrent. Employment isn’t a “pull” either because migrants aren’t initially allowed into legal employment, so they become vulnerable to criminal exploitation

We find that the strongest pull factor for asylum seekers to a destination is social networks both in terms of previous asylum applicants as well as stock of previous migrants. Our findings also suggest that employment bans are not a strong deterrence for asylum seekers given their modest association to asylum flows. https://docs.iza.org/dp16085.pdf

Politicians either don’t understand or pretend not to understand and make populist but pointless policy decisions. This has been a misunderstanding since the Blair government looked at opening up former military bases in the middle of nowhere and has gathered momentum as migration numbers have become more public

Have you seen the absolute dog’s abuse the coast guard and RNLI get for saving the lives of drowning migrants?

This is both true and very depressing. However it loses sight of the fact that we are talking about a small minority. Again and again this small minority is seen as representing mainstream thinking.

The rioters were only ever small in numbers, the biggest mobs were typically 200-400. Obviously sufficient to cause a huge amount of damage but in the end they were stopped by anti-fascists who were able to mobilise thousands.

An opinion poll showed that only 7% of the public had any sympathy for the rioters and polls now show overwhelming support for the harsh sentences they are recieving, with many people believing that they are not harsh enough.

And don’t forget this:

Donations to RNLI rise 3,000% after Farage’s migrant criticism

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/29/rnli-donations-soar-in-response-to-farages-migrant-criticism

Also don’t forget that despite making “stop the boats” one of the central planks of their election strategy, proudly displaying the slogan wherever they could, the Tories, with a 24%  share of the vote, suffered their worse election result in 200 years last month.

There no evidence that applying humane policies to the issue of refugees carries a heavy electoral cost. Nor am I convinced that educating the wider public that the whole issue of refugees arriving in small boats has been massively exaggerated by right-wingers is.

For years the public have been fed the lie that refugees arriving in small boats are a huge problem which somehow directly affects them. Many won’t buy the lie but it is still time to push back and expose it.

Unfortunately looks like the stabbings in Germany were carried out by a Syrian refugee who arrived in 2022. Islamic state have also stuck their oar in and claimed responsibility. Shall be interesting to see how Germany’s knuckle draggers respond.

Again and again this small minority is seen as representing mainstream thinking.

Ernie I think you may live in a bit of a bubble (you’ve mentioned several times being in Muslim dominate WhatsApp groups), please don’t take that as judgement, it’s not, just an ibservation from your posts. Although a tiny minority go out and riot and are rightly condemened by the vast majority, I think the underlying animosity to anyone a bit different is pretty wide spread in the UK, especially in deprived areas and ironically areas with little to no visible immigration.

I keep and eye on our local town Facebook group, occaissionally its actually useful, but the levels of unchecked racism on there is disgusting and usually when one idiot starts there’s plenty prepared to egg them on. We also live in a pretty multi cultural part of the country in East Lancshire but deprivation and blame every one else for your own misfortunes is pretty rife.

Ernie I think you may live in a bit of a bubble (you’ve mentioned several times being in Muslim dominate WhatsApp groups),

You could not be more wrong with your conclusion. The Muslims which dominate the WhatsApp groups I am on seem mostly convinced that everyone blames and hates Muslims, they presumably base this generalisation on personal experience.

I base my conclusions on things such as w general election result which saw support for the Tories collapse to the lowest level in 200 years despite them making stopping the boats a central election issue. And the 3000% rise in RNLI donations after it was critised for saving the lives of asylum seekers.

A few hundred rioted, polls show that they do not enjoy public sympathy at all, and eventually thousands came out to oppose them.

I do accept that London is different to much of the rest of the country, there were no riots, but it has a population larger than Scotland’s, so hardly a small untypical example.

Again and again this small minority is seen as representing mainstream thinking.

It’s well under 52%, that’s for sure.

I base my conclusions on things such as w general election result which saw support for the Tories collapse to the lowest level in 200 years

And Reform getting 15% of the national vote (despite getting bugger all support in London & Scotland).

it has a population larger than Scotland’s, so hardly a small untypical example

The attitude of the populations of both are quite atypical on this issue (and I hope more of the rest of the UK can be moved towards the example they set).

Now what I  don’t understand is why some people create such a fuss about asylum applications from people arriving in small boats when we are in fact talking about such piddling small numbers – 2% of the total immigration into the UK apparently.

I think it’s the optics of a boatload of people turning up on the coast makes for more dramatic visuals for the ‘invasion’ scare mongering.

I’ve noticed the hate factory on Facebook seems to be stepping up a notch with more anti Muslim/immigrant rhetoric.

More ai pictures under the guise of humour.

Also seem to also have a bloke visiting a 5 star asylum hotel and trying to portray it as some £165 a night dream stay  and seems unhappy that they actually feed the residents, considering they aren’t allowed to work and I’m not sure of how many 5 star hotel rooms have a kitchen.

The Muslims which dominate the WhatsApp groups I am on seem mostly convinced that everyone blames and hates Muslims

Not really the point  I was making, in fact that rather illustrates that you may not move in white working class circles, obviously this is the internet so I’m basing this completely on your posts so could be completely wrong.

I think the Tories getting their arse handed to them was much more about the statements economy and people struggling to make ends meet rather than a rejection of Tory anti immigration messaging, which lets be honest wasn’t delivered either. The rise of reform though at 15% was IMO purely down to racial hate and 15% from a standing start is quite frightening.

I think we need to accept there are a lot of rather small minded people out there, the solution though is to make their lives better so they are not so bitter and looking for scape goats.

in fact that rather illustrates that you may not move in white working class circles

I am white working-class. As a carpenter I have worked on building sites most of my life, they tend to be a predominantly white-working class environment. And I fit extremely comfortably into that environment, certainly more comfortably than I do in a middle-class environment where I feel that I have behave and speak in a manner which doesn’t come naturally to me.

Most of my day-to-day contact with the affluent middle-classes is here on stw. I am not as posh as I presumably appear to be:)

All this completely misses the point, my comments regarding public opinions are not based simply on anecdotal evidence,  that would be daft. You shouldn’t either. They are based on provable facts. The Tories tried to save their sorry arses by making “stopping the boats” a central election issue, it failed miserably and a party who did not make stopping the boats a central election issue won a landslide. The Tories completely misjudged the importance of the issue to ordinary working people, a mistake which you appear to be also making.

Sure, it is very important for some people, bigots and racists, but they do not represent the large majority of the population. Same goes for the rioting, the rioters do not represent a significant majority of the population, they were eventually defeated by the decency of the majority, and they are now being condemned and punished with the full backing of the vast majority.

If your anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise I would suggest that you try moving in different circles ;)

If your anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise I would suggest that you try moving in different circles ;)

I live where I live because I like the hills, the locals come with the location, it’s a take it or leave it kind of deal.

Absolutely the Tories failed in their desperate attempts to stoke up hate. That doesn’t mean the people who turned away from them rejected the message they were shouting, the financial pressures were just louder. Even Tory voters can be nuanced. In fact for quite a chunk of the population (15% based on who they voted for) the immigration even topped the financial squeeze.

How integrated are the different ethnic communities in London, up here along the M65 corridor despite being a lot of diversity it’s pretty insular, Burnley being a good (bad) example with different ethnic groups dominating different parts of the town. A lot of money was spent after the minor troubles in 2000 to try and get more integration, particularly through the schools. It was a good idea but failed pretty spectacularly.

The Tories tried to save their sorry arses by making “stopping the boats” a central election issue, it failed miserably and a party who did not make stopping the boats a central election issue won a landslide. The Tories completely misjudged the importance of the issue to ordinary working people, a mistake which you appear to be also making.

If you think that’s why Labour won you are deluded. All that was for was an attempt to lure back the voters they feared they’d lose to Reform.

I am white working-class. As a carpenter I have worked on building sites most of my life

You might identify as working class, but as a (presumably) skilled tradesman you probably earned more than a lot of the people you feel uncomfortable around. The people you take so much pleasure in seeing jailed are not working class, not even close.

The Muslims which dominate the WhatsApp groups I am on

Is this the modern version of ‘some of my best friends are black’?

Is this the modern version of ‘some of my best friends are black’?

What an idiotic comment – are suggesting that in the same vein as the “some of my best friends are black” I am actually hiding islamophobic sentiments? ffs

It is a simple statement of fact that the local Palestine solidarity movement and the WhatsApp groups associated with it are dominated by Muslims, and some of them are actually Palestinian.

As a consequence I am aware of how at least some Muslims have felt about the recent far-right riots.

you probably earned more than a lot of the people you feel uncomfortable around

No not at all. It is a “cultural” thing anyhow, it has little if anything to do with money. One of my best friends who with his own construction industry company has always earned considerably more than me and yet we are on exactly the same wavelength. I feel much more comfortable in the presence of working-class company than I do in professional middle-class company. There is nothing weird about that and it is perfectly natural imo.

Honestly, this whole working class vs middle class thing is just yet more putting people in groups, i have friends, i don’t care if they’re middle class, working class or upper class, same as i have people i actively avoid, going round sticking labels on people is more pretentious than anything else.

Yup. I certainly didn’t bring it up. But apparently I don’t understand how white working-class people think because I allegedly live in a bubble. Despite being white working-class myself.

I have no idea of the class or racial background of the individual who made the allegation nor do I care.

Sorry for trying to  actually engage in a conversation and learn something. I was only trying to understand why you genuinely believe racism isnt as wide spread in our society as I do. Clearly down to differences in our experiences which I was trying to understand, I wasnt the one who went off on one and started to judge you based on your identification as a white working class man.

If you want an antagonistic row crack on, I can’t be bothered.

Antagonistic?? You suggested that I, quote,  “may not move in white working class circles”. I simply pointed out that I am white working-class myself and yes I do “move in white working-class circles”.

What is the problem……. that I didn’t agree with you? Is that why you think I am being antagonistic?

Some interesting stuff here:

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50375-how-do-britons-feel-the-2024-riots-were-handled

Particularly this:

the number believing the legal system has done a good job dealing with the situation has shot up from just a quarter of Britons (27%) to a clear majority of 57%.

That’s quite a turnaround in just a fortnight. The long custodial sentences appear to be highly popular with the public.

Or maybe they just don’t like racists

More like they don’t like thugs who go around rioting. If they had peacefully protested about too much immigration a lot of those who liked the sentencing would be agreeing with the protesters.

Agree with Stumpjon that racism, or more particularly anti immigration, are very widespread in this (and pretty much any country). That is why the populists know that stirring it up works well for them.

It is always a very fine line between racism and anti-immigration but both are based on ignorance. For example, the 98% of immigration that is not asylum seekers, what would the anti immigration people want down with that – presumably stop it all based on their ignorant bliss of not realising we actually need most of that 98% to either perform jobs that need doing or pay money into economy via things like universities.

 you may not move in white working class circles, obviously this is the internet so I’m basing this completely on your posts so could be completely wrong.

There’s the full quote. Ok so you identify as white working class, and yet you still believe

Again and again this small minority is seen as representing mainstream thinking.

Which makes me think even more you live in some strange parallel universe where anti immigration sentiment is not endemic in our society.

What is the problem……. that I didn’t agree with you?

Not really your clearly wrong and obviously aren’t prepared to consider that fact. You’ve tied yourself up in knots trying to prove your point. Especially behind the public not liking the rioters indicating the public must be anti fascist, it doesnt work like that, not liking people smashing up neighbourhoods and not liking immigrants are not mutually exclusive.

The long custodial sentences appear to be highly popular with the public.

All that shows once again is the public like simple answers to complex problems. These aren’t particularly long sentences, we all know that prison isn’t fit for purpose, it’s a punishment tool but it doesnt deter and without massive funding and a major change in focus it isn’t doing what we really need it to do which is rehabilitate people to be part of society.

Antagonistic?? You suggested that I, quote,  “may not move in white working class circles”. I simply pointed out that I am white working-class myself and yes I do “move in white working-class circles”.

I don’t know how you’re “doing” quotes, but the random text size changes are really irritating.

The long custodial sentences appear to be highly popular with the public

I wonder how Lord James Timson, Minister of State responsible for prison operations, policy and reform (amongst other things) feels?

He’s frequently complained about the public wanting harsher sentencing without understanding the problems caused by that. He thinks that only a third of current prisoners should be incarcerated.

A vote has been proposed in September that will reduce prison sentences from 50% served to 40% for most prisoners.

Meanwhile, innocent people are being held in prisons while awaiting trial and yet others accused of a variety of crimes are still enjoying their freedom because the courts are at capacity

You’ve tied yourself up in knots trying to prove your point.

Eh? It is you who seems totally obsessed about arguing with me about some point or other!

I am not even sure what we are supposed to be disagreeing over, and that is a long post from someone who claims they can’t be “bothered” because apparently, ironically, I am being antagonistic.

If you believe that the rioters enjoy widespread public support/sympathy that’s up to you. I disagree, just try to accept that I have a different opinion.

If it’s not that that we disagree over then I don’t know what it is.

Btw I also disagree with your claim that the rioters are not receiving particularly long sentences. It has nothing to do with being “antagonistic”, as you no doubt believe. In fact it is you who appears to be antagonist – the sentences being passed by the courts are widely seen as being quite severe.

I don’t know how you’re “doing” quotes, but the random text size changes are really irritating.

Ernie has his faults, but I don’t think we can blame him for the site’s duff formatting functionality :-)

I wonder how Lord James Timson, Minister of State responsible for prison operations, policy and reform (amongst other things) feels?

Maybe the long custodial sentences  currently being imposed by the courts are not popular with the government. Maybe the long custodial sentences are not the answer. But what appears to be clear is that they are apparently popular with the wider public. There is certainly no evidence that they are not.

I presume we will all be please to see swift justice and long sentences for those causing violence and stabbings at the nothing hill carnival. I read it is upto its usual standards of 3 stabbings at the family day and need 7,000 police to control

I presume we will all be please to see swift justice and long sentences for those causing violence and stabbings at the nothing hill carnival.

Why wouldn’t we all be?

If you believe that the rioters enjoy widespread public support/sympathy that’s up to you.

Absolutely no one is saying that. Just so we can be clear what I’m disagreeing with, I’ll post your statement for the third time.

Again and again this small minority is seen as representing mainstream thinking.

It’s clear from other responses on here that we do generally believe the rioters were representing main stream thinking, people may not be very happy with the actions but the anti immigrent (and not just recent immigrants) sentiment is wide spread in the UK, something the Torys knew well and played it for all it was worth as that was all they had left. Unfortunately for them it wasn’t enough as fiscal concerns trumped the inherent racism.

You seem desperate to equate the public’s response to the actions of the rioters with a rejection  of racist belief and it’s just not real.

You seem desperate to equate…..

No I am not desperate to equate anything. It makes no odds to me what you believe, why would it? However I don’t think that the wider public are quite as racist as stw generally seems to believe they are. STW has a long record of making imo exaggerated claims about the racist views of the public,

I am quite used to that and I certainly don’t expect it to change anytime soon. But I will give examples when and where I think it is useful to challenge that mindset. It is a forum after all despite the apparent desire of some for it to be no more than an echo chamber.

STW has a long record of making imo exaggerated claims about the racist views of the public,

So not just me you disagree with then. That’s nice to know.

However I don’t think that the wider public are quite as racist as stw generally seems to believe they are.

Again, a very fine line between racism and anti-immigration. How many of the wider public do you think are anti-immigration – especially those ‘bad” immigrants coming across in boats?

Speaking to working class people (yes I am one too) I would say vast majority don’t want any ore immigration.
When probed on it they clearly haven’t got a clue about very much but they see it as something that should be reduced anyway.

So not just me you disagree with then

Oh no not at all, of course not. There is definitely a “stw culture” which is based on the perceptions of the affluent middle-classes represented on here. It stretches across a whole range of topics from how to make a cup of coffee to who to vote for, with the occasional discussion about pasties to provide an element of street cred.

There are undoubtedly a lot of people on stw who don’t fit into this tight political/social demographics but they tend not to be as vocal. I think it is probably fair to say that I buck the trend  ;-)

I presume we will all be please to see swift justice and long sentences for those causing violence and stabbings at the nothing hill carnival.

Why wouldn’t we all be?

The absence of multipage threads on the topic would be seem to be a good indicator and before you suggest I start my own, I think we all know how it would go.

I presume we will all be please to see swift justice and long sentences for those causing violence and stabbings at the nothing hill carnival.

Of course.

I dare say those doing the stabbings at the carnival will more than likely be wrong uns anyway, so like the right wingers getting sentenced, will have previous and be dealt with accordingly, they’ll more than likely also be folk just looking for trouble, like the rioters, hence why they’re carrying knives.

As for racism in the UK, of course it’s still everywhere, every generation it reduces a little due to increases in diversity, and reduction in old thinking, but it’ll still be about for a long time, i grew up in the 80s and you were fed racism through TV shows, through parents/grandparents and so on, it doesn’t just disappear overnight.

The absence of multipage threads on the topic would be seem to be a good indicator

Not really, stabbings in London are a daily occurrence, why should the latest one deserve a multi-page thread? Any particular reason?

A daily occurrence? You don’t think that deserves a thread? Wow! I would have thought you’d be all over that.