Aurevoir Sarkozy

Ernie, it is unlike you not to read carefully. Are you swapping you mate’s Edinburgh defence for the even more irritating version, the G Galloway version. I have been clear several times, but let me try again. It’s not the terms RW and LW that I ( or some waffling intellectual – classy that BTW!) are commenting on, it the sloppy use of these terms to phrase the debates of what is going on in European politics at the moment. But if it really is too challenging for you to understand this and if you would rather do a GG and constantly rephrased things to suit, then so be it. As I said, “never….. 😉 ….

P.s plenty of right wingers are very happy with that definition including I imagine the Tory backbenchers who have their knickers in a twist at the moment. So they are probably not the ones objecting to others stereotyping them incorrectly!

I’m quite happy to be considered right-wing, what I don’t like about the label is the way it’s often associated with conservative (small c) politics

That there is the problem, right-wing is often associated with conservative politics, hence the reluctance to accept the label.

In contrast, left-wing is often associated with socialist politics, hence the acceptance of the label.

Are you swapping you mate’s Edinburgh defence for the even more irritating version, the G Galloway version.

More irritating version ? As irritating as G Galloway ?

Aw, shucks…….thanks 8)

Aaw arguing in a friendly way, isn’t that cute!

Zulu-Eleven – Member

I take it you’re cheering the success of socialists then Darcy? I mean, all socialism is good isn’t it, even the National type…

I rate this comment an unprecedented 3 ZOMGs.

That there is the problem, right-wing is often associated with conservative politics, hence the reluctance to accept the label.
In contrast, left-wing is often associated with socialist politics, hence the acceptance of the label.

Depends on the country, of course – socialism is almost a swear word in the States 🙂

And this is why I personally think the labelling is inadequate – both Stalin and Michael Foot were left-wing, for example, yet their politics were hardly identical.

I rate this comment an unprecedented 3 ZOMGs.

😯

Jeebus, I had completely missed it. Thankfully.

So where does a dark green like myself stand then?
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Centre left – pale greens can be of the right tho and often are

socialism is almost a swear word in the States

That’s a good thing though, no?

So where does a dark green like myself stand then?

North of the border in la la land. 😉

So where does a dark green like myself stand then?

With your head in the clouds?

So where does a dark green like myself stand then?

On a four axis spectrum, “authoritarian left”.

Another adjunct, this time for those who are bemoaning the ‘behaviour’ of the ‘markets’ towards the result of the French election. Unfortunately, markets are supposed to be have rationally, but you have to adjust your concept of ‘rationality’ to understand that it’s purpose (and therefore its rational behaviour) is to enhance or protect or mitigate against loss of the general wealth – usually in the short-term.

You really cannot shed any tears for the French comitting an act of national petulance and losing some of their ‘value’. Just look at what has happened to the value of the rand since the end of apartheid. Five rand to the pound in 1995, as low as 14 a little over ten years later. Any sane person would argue that ending apartheid and supporting the resulting state was good, and rational from a human point of view. The markets have no scruples – they are just reactive for their own ends. Unfortuantely, there are actually flesh and blood people behind these markets – and there is the moral issue.

This also brings me (not entirely accidentally) onto an example where socialism is a good thing. Socialism in a developed, industrialised nation like France is just self-indulgence. However, when viewed in the context of post-apartheid South Africa, socialism as social engineering is the best way forward. You don’t need to drive through too many roadworks in South Africa to realise:

a) They probably don’t need doing in the first place

and

b) There are a lot of people employed to wave flags at traffic and generally mooch about.

To criticise this is to miss the point, though. This is how the ANC is trying to complete a slow-motion Robin Hood wealth redistribution. They could not afford to simply tax the hell out of the whites because they would then probably just have taken their money and cleared out. Instead, a gradual process of economic and social reallignment is being carried out. You also have to remember that the ANC had a national (and at times more powerful) rival in Sobukwe’s Pan Africanist Congress (PAC), which advocated ‘driving the white man into the sea’. Black and coloured South Africans ultimately rejected this (obviously very tempting) view in favour of a compratively peaceful solution. They also succeeding in dragging Inkatha kicking and screaming into a tacit understanding (despite the double-dealings of De Klerk and his cronies).

To decry socialism entirely is to be too dogmatic – but I do not believe it has any place in countries where 99.99% of the population have a roof over their head, a car, a TV and running water. It is decadence pure and simple when you consider the living conditions elsewhere in the world for people who work honestly and dilligently.

P.S. to further balance things out, I also think Britain’s attitued to apartheid was pretty shabby, from covert non-interest (Wilson) to overt non-interest (Thatcher). Just goes to show – everyone is in the pockets of the markets to some extent!

However, when viewed in the context of post-apartheid South Africa, socialism as social engineering is the best way forward. You don’t need to drive through too many roadworks in South Africa to realise:

a) They probably don’t need doing in the first place

and

b) There are a lot of people employed to wave flags at traffic and generally mooch about.

To criticise this is to miss the point, though. This is how the ANC is trying to complete a slow-motion Robin Hood wealth redistribution. They could not afford to simply tax the hell out of the whites because they would then probably just have taken their money and cleared out. Instead, a gradual process of economic and social reallignment is being carried out.

I am impressed at how much pish you’ve managed to compress into so few words.

The wealth redistribution the ANC has achieved is not from rich white to poor black, but from corporations to the new elite (by way of BEEs) and from poor black to the new elite (by way of corruption and fraud). A huge chunk of whites (and educated or otherwise mobile South Africans of other races, for that matter) have cleared out and many of those who remain have transferred money overseas. The gradual process of economic and social realignment that takes place when unnecessary and overstaffed projects take place is one of sclerosis and inefficiency. The rand that is pissed away on a boondoggle to employ the mayor/governor/president’s mate’s road construction company is a rand that is spent highly inefficiently and is a rand that is not spent on e.g. healthcare. It is a rand stolen from the poor and given to the rich. Patronage is highly inefficient.