Aurevoir Sarkozy

Can someone explain this too me not the right wing left wing part, but the shares part, if someone is voted into power that will look to redistribute wealth away from the minority of rich and back into the hand of the majority of poor people.

Then the shares for that country will drop in value?

How exactly does it work and how have we come to a be in a situation where the banking sector has so much influence and as such control over our lives, especially when that influence is detrimental to our quality of life.

So how does it work and isn’t it the equivalent of coercion / blackmail for countries to only vote in certain parties?

Well indeed, kaesae.

Mind you – I don’t really believe in conventional notions of ‘economy’.

Typical of the bloody frogs to break ranks and act in pure self interest. To quote MacMillan – the French always betray you in the end.

It’ll be intersting to see how long the krauts are willing to bankroll a 25 hour working week and the bon vivant lifestyle, though. We all know where the power lies.

Still, I’ve had a bank holiday treat of croissants and coffee for breakfast and there’s some Kronenbourg chilling in the fridge, so it’s not all bad.

The sharper eyed amongst you will notice that I’ve liberally (no pun intended) peppered this with terms that were very much in vogue in the 1930’s – it’s starting to resemble that decade quite a lot………..

At least we’re not in the Euro – affected by it obviously, but at least some of our monetary policy is our own – the Euro has a long way to fall yet, if it survives at all. The reason we slipped behind the Euro to begin with was simply one of mass and inertia, but now, given time, the true folly of the Euro ‘project’ will be evident.

Wasn’t the euro going OK until the global economy collapsed, very convenient for all those rich individuals, bodies and corporations who want to invest in china, to have a united Europe neutralized?

Like I said I don’t have any clue about politics or policies, however it does seem to me that we are working for nothing except possessions and that quality of life these days is quite low in relation to the amount of resources and facilities we have.

Obviously we need to be realistic about our situation but we also need to start making changes for the future, things cannot go on as they are!

I’m not ashamed of my views. I think they are all a shower of self-serving shysters.

@ CHB

By the way, thanks for nailing that particular ‘easy out’ for people who refuse to debate and just want to draw ‘battle’ lines.

In short – the railways were nationalised out of a point of principle (never a good justification on its own). It was and is impractical to run a system where the constituent parts MUST function together with different interests owning each bit.

However, the Welfare State was set up to temporarily help people who couldn’t help themselves, get them to a point where they were up and running again, then help someone else. It was NOT created to oversee the creation of an entire social group who depend solely upon it, keep them in Sky TV and betting slips and lager. The majority of people on benefits are not like this, but there is a significant number who are.

The NHS was rightly created to equalise the access to medical treatment away from people who could afford it and those who couldn’t, but in the context of inescapable medical problems. It was NOT created as a safety net for people who want to take drugs, start punchups every Saturday night, eat until they are unable to move and all the rest of it. I’d go so far as to say that if I injured myself on my mountain bike (causing myself harm whilst indulging in a leisure activity, then I wouldn’t feel aggrieved at having to contribute something to the system I was using).

I also believe that we should not have unpaid leave for sporting accidents and injury – I have dragged myself into work in a couple of states knowing full well that other people are swinging the lead.

For example, a few years ago after needing 15 stitches in an elbow wound that went down through the fatty stuff to the bone, I went to work basically drugged up to the eyeball on painkillers and got through it without letting anyone down. In another department about 5m away, there was a woman coming up to retirement, who only worked when directly supervised. She took six weeks off for an ingrowing toenail, and did it before she retired so she could have paid leave.

The left a nasty taste to be honest, but at least I’m not a scrounger.

It’s not about left versus right, it’s about being able to go to bed at night knowing that you haven’t let anyone down and you have hopefully given more than you have taken. It’s about the attitude of taking things on the chin (even if they are unfair) and moving on and doing something about it. If I’m really sticking my neck out, it’s about being British (irrespective of race, colour or creed) – I would like to think of Britishness as an attitude rather than a way of defining race – although even this has been hijacked by extremists who can’t be bothered to think.

Sermon over – but if everyone put in 1% more effort every day, I think we would be a far happier country.

Sermon over

Ah no, keep going. It’s brilliant stuff.

Why hasn’t this site got a “like” button for posts like that 🙂

Why hasn’t this site got a “like” button for posts like that

For the same reason it doesn’t have a dislike for most of what you say Zulu.

dannyh – gold. i couldn’t help but think of this guy while i was reading :

trailmonkey

You’ve obviously seen me in the flesh – bugger – cover blown 😕

Still, I bet he shreds it downhill.

dislike all you like darcy – doesn’t make it untrue 😉

I see Golden Dawn’s anti-austerity policies came through as I expected in Greece!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/07/greece-election-farright-idUSL5E8G73PF20120507

But I suppose that takes us back to the dichotomous ‘right wing’ parties with ‘left wing’ economic policies thing again 😈

Well most of what you say is both dislikeable and bollocks Zulu. I was only thinking the other day that I’d started to actually feel a bit sorry for you after reading some of your posts, they’ve been that weak lately. And hey, that’s no state of affairs to be getting into is it? You need a break mate.

Kaesae, I wouldn’t be persuaded by the hyperbole of today’s headlines, including today’s FT which should know better. Ok 24hour news will always sensationalise things, but there has been no violent financial crash overnight merely an utterly predictable weakening in the euro and in equity markets (Greek bank shares aside today). It’s not a tax issue either certainly not in isolation. Recent news has included, weaker growth in most major economies, incumbent political parties taking a hit in various elections and growing arguments against the economic and political orthodoxy being enforced from Europe’s core ie, lots of uncertainty. In the past 24 hours, two elections with the same central theme. A rejection of austerity and the terms of the latest euro fudge package. One is the sickest man of Europe, the other one if it’s leading players who has vowed to take on Frau Merkel and “his enemies” in global finance. So all in all as predictable as the fact that we still have politicians implementing yesterday’s solutions for tomorrow’s problems. Plus ca change, rien n’a change!!!

You need a break mate

should clear me out a bit.

I take it you’re cheering the success of socialists then Darcy? I mean, all socialism is good isn’t it, even the National type…

*like*

Just before I’m caricatured as a blindly obedient Authority lapdog, I’d like to share an example of what I am on about from a ride yesterday in the Peaks.

As I was having a breather at the crossroads at Whinstone Lee Tor, there were quite a few walkers and riders about.

Then down from the top (on a footpath) tore a lad on a Nukeproof Mega – he was really nailing it and my initial reaction was ‘cool’, however, when he went on to jump past two middle aged women at waist height and fly off down another non-bridleway, the rational side of me kicked in.

I know that there a quality tracks that are not strictly legit to ride, and yes, I sometimes ride them myself. But it’s the context of what this guy was doing – his actions could easily cause official complaints to be made – and have this particular track shut down or blocked or whatever. He shouldn’t have done that on a Bank Holiday Sunday in full view of loads of people, no matter how cool he looked. The long-term ramification could be bad for all riders in the area – inidividuals need to exercise responsibility. I really hope it wasn’t this bloke who had to have the Edale Mountain Rescue out – this publicity would not be good.

You don’t have to be a stickler for all the rules, but you need to exercise some common sense – even on a bridleway, you can’t go around terrorising people who have as much right to be there as you – simple really. Let’s all rub along together for a change – obviously whilst stood to rigid attention and saluting. 🙂

Immigration should be limited to need and genuine refugees.

1) why would you exclude the non-British spouses of British citizens?

2) why would you allow refugees to immigrate when the only obligation is to provide safe harbour?

3) how would withdrawing from the EU’s free labour movement provisions affect British citizens in the EU and British business’s ability to hire/continue employing the employees it needs?

4) whose “need”?

ernie_lynch – Member

In 2007 there were 9 left wing governments within the 27 EU countries

So it’s pretty clear who set the EU agenda then……….conservative governments. One has to wonder why the EU is in such an economic mess eh ?

Conservatism doesn’t work, in case anyone hadn’t noticed.

No it doesn’t. That schematic just shows distribution of clearly left wing governments in Europe, over time, it has no indication at all of the strength or weakness of the governments in relation to party. What it does show is that just over 30% of governments were politically on the left, this does not necessarily mean that 70% were right wing. For example, this chart excludes Germany’s “grand coalition” of 2005-09, comprising the centre-right Christian Democrats and the centre-left Social Democrats, one of the biggest and most influential economic engines of Europe.

Why is it that those who are dogmatically wedded to a political faith cannot look at facts without applying a liberal dose of left or right spin to them?

MF – I am with you all the way – stand as an independent, I’d vote for someone who can demonstrate original thought not a myopic party political rant. Just listened to the independent candidate for London Mayor on R4 this morning – she’s brilliant. Perhaps more intelligent independent candidates is what we need?

Wunundred. 😀

What this thread needs is some ill-informed right wing opinion being posted.

Me? I’m of the opinion that all politicians are barstewards.

PJM1974 – Member

What this thread needs is some more ill-informed right wing opinion being posted.

fixed it for you

teamhurtmore – Member

Well said mf, the RW v LW debate is more commonly a tired, outdated and sloppy attempt to classify people

Strange thing for you to say THM, the left-wing and right-wing classification is widely used by politicians and the media beyond STW, there is nothing “outdated” about it. Even your bible the FT, freely uses the terms – I’m surprised to hear you describe the FT as “sloppy”.

The reality is that it’s an excellent means of giving a concise and fairly accurate political analysis in just two words.

The only people who seem to have a problem with the terms are right-wingers such as yourself, who for obvious reasons don’t want to admit to being right-wing. But left-wingers like me are perfectly happy to be labelled as such, even by the FT.

Indeed left-wingers often flaunt the fact that they are left-wing by including the term within their organisation’s name. For example the party which came second in yesterday’s election in Greece is called the Coalition of the Radical Left, and the candidate who came fourth in the French presidential election was from the Left Front.

Right-wingers in contrast, tend to be thoroughly ashamed of the fact that they are right-wing, preferring instead to claim that the term tired, outdated, and sloppy.

Unless of course they are American, in which case it is your patriotic duty to call yourself right-wing.

They have no shame.

Ernie, perhaps it’s people who like to make black and white distinctions, or those whose main merit is simplicity rather than accuracy who like to use them. Journo’s and STW posters being obvious examples. The Economist graph is an excellent example. How many of those parties followed exactly/ broadly the same econ policies over the periods shown?

Perhaps those who object to people classifying them merely know more about themselves than Internet posters who have never met them!

Plus I was referring to the RW v LW “debate” given that the debate between extremes of political and economic orthodoxy have been increasingly blurred. Even my bible (sic, but no apologies for reading it) understands that!

Edit: perhaps that also why folk get bamboozled by the dramatic differences between the far right spending plans of the GO and his brown shirts and those of the redder-that- red extreme marxists of Ed Balls and his team. understanding the current climate and challenges is really helped by presenting the context in RW v LW, isn’t it!?!?! Creates lots of pages on here and lots of noise everywhere , but little if any knowledge

Indeed left-wingers often flaunt the fact that they are left-wing by including the term within their organisation’s name.

<Resists temptation to invoke the wrath of Godwins law>

Plus I was referring to the RW v LW “debate” given that the debate between extremes of political and economic orthodoxy have been increasingly blurred. Even my bible (sic, but no apologies for reading it) understands that!

Even your bible the FT understands that it is perfectly acceptable to describe one side of a political argument as either left-wing or right-wing.

If that’s good enough for a newspaper which claims ‘no FT, no comment’ then I suspect that it is good enough for most people. Except embarrassed right-wingers.

Even I have to accept the label Ernie gave me- what was it again? “Wishy washy pale pink liberal guardianista” or something similar IIRC

this isa part of why I find this so funny. Many of you seem to think I am some sort of rabid socialist when actually I am only leftish. Even Ernie has plenty room to the left of him compared to many folk I know

I would however characterise Blair and his cohorts as centre / centre right.

Indeed it does, Ernie, and some of its contributors still refer to monetarism vs keynesian as if they exists in black and white. And they both add similar amounts of value. You have proved the point exactly, especially with last sentence.

“good” is the enemy of “excellent” or should I say “good enough” is the enemy of “precise”?

Not “guardianista” TJ, I don’t use the term……..I find the term “Guardian reader” sufficiently insulting.

Even though I read the Guardian myself 🙂

🙂

But the FT also has some contributors who prefer precision to ease of use:

My main contention remains that the concept of a left-right spectrum, on which any politically interested person can be placed, obscures more than it illuminates. It muffles important issues and erects barriers between those who should be allies.

Samuel Brittan, FT 12/04/2012.

So…Will France be a better place in 2years time?

Well, its all relative isn’t it – I mean, it will still be full of French people 😆

Samuel Brittan, FT 12/04/2012.

So the brother of Margret Thatcher’s Chief Secretary to the Treasury, disciple of Milton Friedman, who in 1981, when 364 leading economists wrote a letter to The Times criticising Margaret Thatcher’s economic policy, was one of the few commentators to openly defend the Conservative government’s policy, doesn’t like the label right-winger ?

Thank you for giving me an example of an ’embarrassed right-winger’. Got anymore ?

So…Will France be a better place in 2years time?

Not if those in the arena of finance can help it. How dare those Frenchies take a democratic decision! Don’t they know we control the world?

How exactly does it work and how have we come to a be in a situation where the banking sector has so much influence and as such control over our lives, especially when that influence is detrimental to our quality of life.

So how does it work and isn’t it the equivalent of coercion / blackmail for countries to only vote in certain parties?

You may not claim to know much Kaesae, but you’ve got this pretty much spot on. The sooner we rid ourselves of the current form of capitalism, it’s worshipers and its “investors”, the better we will be.

Ernie, his actual article is much more informative than Wiki bios but don’t let that get in the way. You might even get his point, rather than superimposing yours on him.

His article clearly defines Hollande as being on the left, before returning to the actual point ie, whether defining the debate in these terms adds value. But don’t let fact get in the way of a good argument, tis not the STW way. 😉

don’t let fact get in the way of a good argument

And yet it is you who is ‘not letting fact get in the way of your argument’.

The fact remains that the terms left-wing and right-wing are used extensively by both the media and politicians, despite your claim that it is “tired, outdated and sloppy”. Even your own newspaper, who’s opinions you apparently value so much, uses the terms. That is the fact.

His article clearly defines Hollande as being on the left, before returning to the actual point ie, whether defining the debate in these terms adds value.

So you’ve found a waffling intellectual who clearly uses the term, and then questions himself whether he should have. Well I hardly feel that lays the basis for not using the term. Still, you could write a letter to the FT pointing out that iyo the terms left-wing and right-wing are “tired, outdated and sloppy”, and ask them to please stop using them.

In the meantime I will maintain the claim that whilst right-wingers are more than happy to label left-wingers as left-wing, they are both embarrassed and reluctant to call themselves right-wing.

Which is hardly surprising really……who in their right mind would be happy to call themselves right-wing.

In the meantime I will maintain the claim that whilst right-wingers are more than happy to label left-wingers as left-wing, they are both embarrassed and reluctant to call themselves right-wing.

Which is hardly surprising really……who in their right mind would be happy to call themselves right-wing.

Agreed

TandemJeremy – Member
Whjy do some of those who commonly espouse right wing ideas deny being right wing? there are a few on here.
POSTED 14 HOURS AGO #

I may be to the right of you, that does not mean I am right wing regardless of what you think.
Proper right wingers would find some of my views left wing. Maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to stereotype. Not all of us fall neatly into a label like you obviously do.

Economically I’m quite happy to be considered right-wing, what I don’t like about the label is the way it’s often associated with conservative (small c) politics, in particular here in Spain that means the reactionary, Catholic, post-Franco wing of the ruling party.