I'm not very good at this stuff - fairly new homeowner, have never really done this kind of thing before, but need some work done on the roof. I've got two quotes, vastly different in price. I'm minded to go with the cheaper one, as they appear very similar, and I'm reasonably sure it's a reliable company. But am I missing any obvious pitfalls here? I'll leave the actual prices off for now, but if anyone would like to amuse themselves by guessing the costs in Bristol, I'd be interested to know! I thought the higher one might be a "I don't really want this job" quote, but then he chased me the next day asking if I was going to book it in...
1. Erect scaffolding to gain access to the parapet wall front right side
2. Remove the coping stones/render to the parapet wall up to the chimney stack.
3. Bed on new concrete coping stones.
4. Fit stainless steel bellcast bead.
5. Apply SBR to the parapet wall.
6. Apply x2 coats of render to the parapet wall using a sand and cement mix with a waterproofer additive.
7. All debris to be removed from the site.
==
1) to supply scaffolding for a safe working platform
2) to remove damaged coping stones
3) to remove all render up to chimney stack
4) to supply and install two coats of traditional render
5) to supply and install new coping stones to replace damaged
6) to remove all waste from site
Impossible to guess without more detail.
What is you house built out of.
One is saying cement render and concrete coping, the other traditional render and new stone.
Approx square metreage of render.
Height of scaffold.
I'm guessing the one specifying cement is the cheaper quote
Both quotes on the face of it sound very similar.
Do you know if each company carry out the work directly or if they in turn use a subcontractor ? The scaffold costs can also vary wildly depending on how they go about arranging it.
Once you have ensured both companies have priced for the same works and you are satisfied that the quote meets your brief I'd be more inclined to look at the standard of their previous work and seek out reliable testimony. Please don't rely on social media for reviews...
but then he chased me the next day asking if I was going to book it in…
Unusual for a good builder to be available quickly or to chase jobs. All those I've know are very laid back as they are chocca with work.
To play the cost guestimate game! - £5k +VAT ish!
Are they going to fly-tip any debris in a lane somewhere or provide you with receipts from a council tip?
@jamesy01 oh, thanks, that's a good spot. The house is a brick built Victorian mid terrace, which looks a lot like the one on the right here. Similar amount of render / new coping etc.
You're right in saying the cement one is the cheaper quote. But it's fully 60% cheaper! Which seems like a big difference.
As above, the choice of render jumped out to me, if it should be lime render, then it has to be lime render, Cement will just lead to damp problems as water inevitably gets behind it and it doesn't breathe. .
If the 'traditional' quote is the higher of the two then I'd go back to the concrete guys and ask why they're using concrete, how much for the different materials, do they have the skills / experience with the traditional materials, etc. Otherwise you've actually only got one quote and another for a different job entirely.
My recollection from growing up in old houses is lime render takes ages to go off, so it's a slow process. Might impact the type of scaffolding used (is concrete guy thinking it could be done in a couple of days with a PASMA tower, traditional guy budgeting for a couple of weeks with scafolding hire).
Basically you need to make sure that all the quotes are actually quoting for the same job. Don't just give it to the one who's going to do it the cheapest way, if you were happy with the cheaper method then go back to the expensive one and get them to quote for the cheaper method.
I generally aim to get three quotes, that way you may identify an outlier. If it is possible for you to get a third quote, you may identify if one of the current quotes is far too expensive, or one far too cheap, neither of which is desirable.
More expensive one - 10k
Looking at the two quotes, i would agree re. the cost difference being in the render. Traditional render would suggest it is lime based. This is more expensive as both a material and is more time consuming to apply. I would therefore say quote 2 is the higher one.
Is it a period property with solid walls? The benefit with lime is it is breathable which is important if you have solid walls to avoid issues. Cement based render to solid walls can cause damp issues as it is not breathable.
Unusual for a good builder to be available quickly or to chase jobs. All those I’ve know are very laid back as they are chocca with work.
Yeah, there was a roofer I used a couple of years ago, recommended by a builder mate who uses him as a subcontracter. Sadly he was not only atrocious at the admin side of things anyway, but also just never replies to messages. I've still got some of his tools which he never bothered to come back for!
TINAS - that all sounds probable - I'll give cement guy a shout.
Is it a period property with solid walls? The benefit with lime is it is breathable which is important if you have solid walls to avoid issues. Cement based render to solid walls can cause damp issues as it is not breathable.
Yes it is! Damp issues are exactly why we're getting this work done now...
So I've had this exact work done in Bristol. But enough years ago my quote won't be relevant - and we went with a local roofer who's done loads of the roofs near us, and mostly works on reputation, so I've no idea if he's cheap or not.
Anyway just came here to say there are some companies I've heard bad things about, particularly one with initials ES of late so if it's them I'd avoid...
Damp issues are exactly why we’re getting this work done now…
Oh and I wish I knew where all the damp in my mid-terrace was coming from...
Going by that photograph that's stone of some kind with probably brick internal wall but it should be breathable due to the hungry looking joints, water must be pouring in through the gaps
If you're not sure of what your house is constructed with IE brick !! some folk may run circles around you
Repair the parapet wall by all means but that's only a wee part of the problem. Nowadays parapet walls get covered all over with lead to properly seal the parapet wall
There's a chimney looking dodgy in the photo maybe a neighbour and it's been plastered up to hide it but it looks like it may go at some point
Any coping stone up there should be mechanical fixed with stainless brackets rather than relying on a bed of mortar on its own
that photo isn't actually our house, but it's similar and nearby. The houses are all brick - the stone on the front is just cladding. Our chimney is exposed brick too.
Not sure what you mean about 'hungry joints'?
Hungry joints are unfilled joints, I thought only Jack and Vera from Coronation st had that cladding it looks hideous
Sorry for sounding cheeky but planning authority should not allow that to go on
you mean the fake 'mediaevel castle style' stuff all over the front? Almost every house within half a mile has got that! It must have been the fashion in the 1890s - in our area, probably 95% of all the houses, and in inner city East Bristol generally, must be at least 75%....
Why not enjoy a relaxing stroll through one of the neighbourhoods to soak it all in?
Surely that isn't retrofitted stone cladding, it is the outer skin.
Parapet walls do cause all kinds of issues though. One of my neighbours has had the coping stones removed twice in the last 5 years, still got damp inside. They just absorb water. As above, only way to be sure is to cap in lead.
Weve been shocked by prices. Double what I anticipated for a small front porch. The first price was a lot (ex vat) and I thought bes high balling as he didn't want it, turns out he was cheaper than the others.
Don't go cheap, that's just to lure you in, mid job he ll requote and you will have no choice other than pony up the extra. My neighbour fell for it, cost him more than competitor quote in the end. Plus the roofers weren't roofers, they did everything.
The scientist in me says get a third quote.
Victorian Terrace? Add contingency. We've never done a decent sized job that hasn't unearthed a previously unknown issue or unusual challenge.
Tbh i wouldn't go back to the cement quote.
If they don't know their job enough to spec the right material OR they are undercutting to get the work and not giving a shit about their outcome. I would be more concerned about that than their price.
I can't offer any advice, but if you find a good builder OP I wouldn't mind their details. My daughter and her fella have recently moved into a Victorian mid terrace in Bristol (Easton), very similar to the one in your picture. It's mostly sound, as far as I know, but they will be looking to get some work done in due course.
I’d be looking at the flashing between the parapet walls and roof as a possible source of water ingress. While the scaffolding is up I’d also do any decorating that might need a spruce up in the next couple of years.
Both quotes give the high level process. I assume they have provided a lump sum cost I.e. total cost is £xx. putting my project manager head on, I would ask:
Duration of works. Does this match with labourer costs, scaffold hire, skip etc
Sub contractor quotes I..e. from the scaffolder. Does it match the work duration
How much allowed for waste disposal? Cost of one skip (or back van, where you then ask are they licensed waste carriers and ask fir copies of the transfer notes). Street permit costs for skip if applicable.
Cost of materials. I would offer to buy materials to avoid a fee.
Labour costs- how much are the labourers getting.
Contingency/ risk - have 10% set aside but don't tell the contractor.
I would also be asking for references from both and do reach out to people to check. Most happy punters are happy to give feedback.
I would also be asking for references from both and do reach out to people to check. Most happy punters are happy to give feedback.
This. The most important thing is getting the job done, properly, first time. This will be the cheapest option in the long run
Cost of materials. I would offer to buy materials to avoid a fee.
Labour costs- how much are the labourers getting.
Imagine this, you've bought the materials builder calls you up yeah mate 1/2 bag of lime short when will you bring it round need to get this done next hr or so and oh yeah also those coping stones you got they're not wide enough you'll need to get the right size ones, the guys are stood about waiting this will cost you extra.
Not up to you to decide the labourers rates, if you think they're underpaid are you going to offer more money?
As above, the choice of render jumped out to me, if it should be lime render, then it has to be lime render, Cement will just lead to damp problems as water inevitably gets behind it and it doesn’t breathe. .
Traditional is sand and cement not lime.
It’s applied in multiple layers and I see top quote mentions 2x coats so the two quotes look very similar to me in approach, Answer is to get a third quote but check cheap quote isn’t to keep up cash flow for the builder as a job may have been delayed or fallen through.
Builders have big overheads so downtime can be very expensive.
@bruneep I'm not suggesting deciding rates have I? But I would like to know who and what I'm paying. If you think that as the client it's un reasonable then you don't need to ask.
As far as materials, the contractor identifies in his BOQ /quote need for xx bags, he will have a trade account and i would pay the invoice. the customer shouldn't have to pay more than what the materials cost.
the customer shouldn’t have to pay more than what the materials cost.
Lol.
When those materials magically order them selves and turn up on site by teleportation then maybe.
Infact reading your post further up.
Your what's known as. "Decline to quote"
If you work(ed)in building - I suspect it's in corporate /scheme projects. With a QS rather than local extension builders with limited resources.
In what line of business does the customer only pay whatever the cost of the materials are to the supplier?
Going back to a parapet wall coating why do so many folk think it has to be a lime mix when it is exposed to all the weather rather than a sand and cement based coating?
Most houses in Scotland are harled to keep the rain out with sand ,cement and waterproofer/retarder chucked in
the customer shouldn’t have to pay more than what the materials cost.
Genuine lol at that ^^
Have you tried that approach in Tesco/Waitrose/Sainsbury's or where ever you get your shopping or your local Pub/restaurant. Or your own customers do you charge them your paid hourly rate?
But I would like to know who and what I’m paying
You’re paying the builder. End of. Whatever he’s paying and to who is non of your business.
As far as materials, the contractor identifies in his BOQ /quote need for xx bags, he will have a trade account and i would pay the invoice. the customer shouldn’t have to pay more than what the materials cost.
If you’re expecting anyone to do any leg work, calculations, ordering etc. why would you not expect to pay a mark up for their time/experience/risk?
Wow. Lot of push back against my advice. Yep, I'm a PM, worked on big schemes with QS etc. But also had work done at home ranging from 900 garden work to 13k garden room. I've always asked for a breakdown of the costs and have been provided. If you don't like it, maybe tell the post owner to ignore me. Don't chew my butt off.
As mentioned by someone above the best approach is to cover parapet wall in lead. Cement Render and under sized coping stones is a short lived solution. Cracks form in cement render trapping moisture that soaks the wall.
So the expensive 'traditional' render is a sand, cement and lime render mix. So that tallies with what people suggested above, that it might require longer to go off and be more expensive as a result.
The other one seems to just be cement but he didn't really give any details when i queried it, just said it's what he recommends.
The houses are all brick – the stone on the front is just cladding
Not so. Classic Bristol Victorian/Edwardian style. Proper stone with bath/Portland stone sills and bays. Solid wall with a brick inner leaf and all resting on sweet FA. I lived in one for 20 years.
Nothing wrong with the sand and cement on the parapet wall. The problem happens at the gutter where they often fitted a dressed bath stone to keep the front elevation looking nice. Roofers run angle bead and bell cast, plus render to dress it up and it blows apart after a few years - been there got the Tee shirt.
If the bath stone is painted on yours, get a mason in and get the paint off pronto. Take a look around and you'll soon spot the smart ones with the original bath stone.
The expensive quote render is much the same as the other sand and cement mortar but using lime to make it workable rather than waterproofer/retarder pink or green snot looking stuff the cheaper guy will be using or if he is a right cheapskate squeezy liquid instead of plasticiser to make it workable
You need to get someone who gets repeat work in your street or close neighbouring streets as there are so many vans with ladders on the roofs . A lot of them used to lay tar back in the day nudge nudge wink wink
Slight hijack, but I'd be interested in roofer recommendations in Bristol. Had the lead flashing redone on the chimney last year but still having water leak down the stack in the loft, soaking some timber beams.
After someone to take a look and give an honest view/quote on repair or new roof. I may as well be going off Amazon reviews based on the varying opinions of sites like TrustMark, Checkatrade, Nextdoor etc.
Our lead was redone badly, it still leaked. Mistake was doing it in 1 piece in the valleys, apparently temp swings winter and summer cause movement so it leaked. Roofer redid it in several overlapping strips and all now fine. Lead flashing on flat roof adjoining house/garage has always leaked despite numerous repairs, solution is a pitched roof.
Main problem is rain blowing across rather than straight down.