They are two different contexts, this is just a really dumb question.

It’s hard to argue with such a robust, comprehensive and watertight rebuttal. I shall however attempt to respond in kind:

Your mum.

They are two different contexts, this is just a really dumb question.

Which context did Leave mean then? Surely as they brought it up they should have been specific about what exactly it was they were supporting?

Picking up a couple of things from earlier….

Actually mike, it came across a bit more as:

No idea what side of the argument B&D is on, but this is insightful…

…this is precisely the sort of thing that got their goat enough to vote.

In calling big and daft a brexit troll for pointing out problems that might be systemic makes you look as blinkered as a brexit headbanger.

If we are getting onto semantics of this I didn’t call him a troll

No he delivered a perfect Brexit lead troll posting there, was perfect really picked out facts, offered no comparison to make then more or less resonable and then chucked some emotion at it.

What I was commenting on was a well put together post designed to engage people at an emotional level, it used just enough facts – you would be sooo angry if you knew these people were getting a pension – well lots of people get pensions it’s part of a common work place agreement.

It set the tone and was bang on what the brexit campaign did so well take a fact or line out of context or just present it in a slightly different way and trigger a response.

Challenge that and you can’t be disputing the facts – here is a printed version from the EU itself, by the time you have gone around in circles a few times the line is established.

Whether it is factual or not at this stage is unimportant. The question is why people voted the way they did. This is why. This is what they percieve.

inkster

Member
Sorry Mikewsmith, It’s not incumbent on the electorate to understand the system used to elect MEP ‘s. The electorate either get it or they don’t. It’s the point I was trying to make on the thread I started asking “Have you ever voted in a European Parliament election? I haven’t” Where I dared to question their authenticity, relevance and degree to which the EU parliament is responsible for the mess we all find ourselves in.

It’s also not accurate to call it arcane, it’s just not the FPTP system we use and is much hated in the UK at times 🙂 It’s simply different.

Of course somebody jumped on that I’d picked the wrong example of Tory MP to unseat so pick one where they are in a seat so blue they don’t even have to turn up and most will tick the blue box on the ballot regardless, they are best mates with the local party – you have near zero chance of getting them out even if they were found watching porn at work 😉 Those are at the level of Farage etc. in the system – set for life.

We all know people had reasons for voting leave, we also know it’s really hard to admit you were wrong when faced with the evidence hence a lot of the doubling down.

The onus seems to being put on those who voted remain to be accepting and hold out the olive branch to heal a divide. You know what plenty have tried but if you keep on with the same lies and pretence then it’s not going to end well.

Igave my leaver cousin a load of info on the proposed US / UK trade deal showing her what a disaster that would be for the NHS and agriculture. she has gone very quiet. Hopefully to have a wee think about it ‘cos she is not stupid

personally I think voting leave was not a vote “for” something it was a vote against the status quo. As such it should have always been used as a lever to negotiate with the EU rather than a “sign from god” and reinforced by a political consensus that we must go out into the wilderness searching for a promised land. This may have attracted some fall-out but the UK is a parliamentary democracy and as such for all it’s faults parliament should be taking the decisions for good or ill.

But I have no mandate, only one vote, and my views aren’t going to change the current paradigm and the three main options

no deal: the opportunities for a managed no deal Brexit have been pissed up against the wall so unless we revoke, reset, spend 3 years and a lot of money it’s too high a risk for any party as every hiccup will be blamed on the incumbent. EU/UK fudge the NI/Ireland issues for as long as they can. Leavers get blamed for everything including the weather

the deal: is only a two year transition, so we’ll be back into chaos in 2021 when the deadline rushes towards us again. In two years time lots of people will still be wondering why they should care about NI. Businesses still fret about what next.

revoke: buys time, there is a political meltdown internally, no doubt a second referendum will be pointlessly proposed, everyone gets more polarised, Scots scramble for Indy Ref2 whilst still a EU member. There is at least some time to discuss the future of NI/Ireland and life beyond the Good Friday Agreement. Remainers get blamed for usurping the will of the people or some such rubbish

as for Farage’s pension, I think it is a disgrace. The numbers are eye watering, would never survive in a UK political environment and don’t get me onto their expenses https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10777196/MEPs-second-pension-scheme-how-it-works.html

as for Farage’s pension, I think it is a disgrace. The numbers are eye watering, would never survive in a UK political environment and don’t get me onto their expenses

It is but it absolutely does not justify throwing the entire thing out either. We all know there are some very hard conversations to be had but the myths and unicorns need to be stabled first.

Which context did Leave mean then?

In terms of Parliamentary sovereignty, they argued that the UK Parliament should have oversight/voting rights for all laws brought in effect in the UK. This can be contrasted with the present furore which is a question of whether the executive should have the primary right to promulgate laws and determine the legislative timetable.

It is not contradictory to believe in both of these propositions.

No more unelected………

It is not contradictory to believe in both of these propositions.

But very rare for anyone to express it like that…. it normally sounds like whine whine whine I’m not allowed to be _____ist

I’ve only read the first page of this thread, and up until now I have not commented on any Brexit threads.
There are a lot of accusations coming from leave voters of vitriol and stupidity from the leave side, but in this particular STW bubble the vitriol and insults seem to be overwhelmingly coming from the remainers.
I voted remain and was very disappointed with the referendum result, I’m sure that some leave voters are racist and generally horrible, I’m also sure that plenty of leave voters are self-righteous morons too. Barbara Castle, a politician in my opinion worthy of admiration, was against joining the EEC, as it was then called, saying something like “Why should I give preferential treatment to a German or Italian over an Indian?” so a non-racist internationalist who opposed the joining the EEC/EU.
One of the brightest people I know voted leave, his rationale being that Europe is in relative long term economic decline and that Britain needs to adopt a truly internationalist outlook, I’m sceptical that this will happen and would rather the UK remained in the EU and pressed for reforms, but his is a reasoned, considered opinion.
Of course there are extremes of behaviour from some leave voters, but the general feeling on this forum that all leave voters are racist, stupid bigots is itself extremely narrow-minded, bigoted and stupid.
I don’t think I’ll be posting again on any Brexit threads so please feel free to flame away.

Leave means leave.

the general feeling on this forum that all leave voters are racist, stupid bigots

If you’ve read much of the discourse, you’d know that that’s not what the majority of remainers on STW are saying. We’ve discussed this time and again. It’s what leavers claim we are saying, but like most leave claims it’s detached from reality.

We’ve discussed this time and again. It’s what leavers claim we are saying, but like most leave claims it’s detached from reality.

It helps to keep the narrative going, it’s important to keep the divide going. Got to wonder where the strings are being pulled sometime, just who profits most from this?

Who profits – the rich tories – they will be able to continue with their tax avoidence ( new EU regs on this coming) They will make money from shuffling money around – rees mogg etc and of course they have to give something to their paymasters – US agribuisness and healthcare business as well as Murdoch who lets not forget bribe many of our MPs

look beyond that TJ it’s not really the tories it’s those who pay both sides. Ideology is powering this but some of those at the middle have very little

If you’ve read much of the discourse, you’d know that that’s not what the majority of remainers on STW

Given he’s read one page of this and not engaged with any of the other threads then I’ll bet on not having read much of the discourse

Of course there are extremes of behaviour from some leave voters, but the general feeling on this forum that all leave voters are racist, stupid bigots is itself extremely narrow-minded, bigoted and stupid.

An excellent summary.

I refer you to my previous reply.

I agree totally that suggesting “all leave voters are racist, stupid bigots is itself extremely narrow-minded, bigoted and stupid.” But that’s not what most people are suggesting. And to claim otherwise is, well, very meta.

An excellent summary.

Confirmation bias?

It’s not like this thread has described a lot of difficult situations people have felt when they have to confront the fact close members of their family are racist and more.

If you’ve read much of the discourse, you’d know that that’s not what the majority of remainers on STW are saying. We’ve discussed this time and again. It’s what leavers claim we are saying, but like most leave claims it’s detached from reality.
[/Quote]
Hmmmmm……

Even if you don’t believe the post-polls analysis, you only have to spend a few minutes on leave- and remain- forums or Facebook groups to see where all the illiterates, racists and believe-everything-they-readers are congregating.

All haddock are fish, that doesn’t mean that all fish are haddock.

tell you what lets hold off any more tales of shit days until a leaver posts a really good plan to leave? Or should we keep posting until somebody posts one??

TBH, with my <mod> hat on for a moment, the thread probably needs to get back on topic or be closed. I’ll say nothing further to compound the drift.

I refer you to my previous reply.

Which has the fundamental flaw that you assume that there are some leavers posting on the subject on this forum.

Who profits – the rich tories – they will be able to continue with their tax avoidence ( new EU regs on this coming) They will make money from shuffling money around – rees mogg etc and of course they have to give something to their paymasters – US agribuisness and healthcare business as well as Murdoch who lets not forget bribe many of our MPs

To be fair, the real benefactors sit above party politics. We’re talking the hedge funds that bet against currencies, industries and major players in those industries – macro level rather than micro. Those big funds will invest into whoever (party/business/industry) will yield a profit – and “invest in” can mean backing activity that destabilises the currency you’re betting against so you win big when the house of cards burns down.

Watch “The Big Short” to get a better illustration. Absolutely mental stuff.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Short_(film)

Which has the fundamental flaw that you assume that there are some leavers posting on the subject on this forum.

Well where are they? this is their moment, they can unveil the grand plan and lead us to the promised land. I’d be marching in the street right now if I was one of them, making my banners and preparing for the moment all these years of planning comes true!!

So long as they keep telling us lots of truth about life outside of the EU I can’t see where the problem is.

Well where are they?

Probably living more fulfilling lives.

and you??

Procrastinating, much to my shame.

I thought you were here just to try and comically defend the tories one last time 🙂

What’s your excuse then?

Nice quiet night and shit tv 🙂 Still at least we can all agree once this is cancelled we can just get back to a better life

Is now the appropriate time to sum this up with a German Eurodance, STW hero weekend wear (mmmmmm chain mail) musicz video mashup?