My whole family is pretty much entirely remainers, most of my friends and colleagues are too.

There are a couple of vocal leavers in the office though who have been gobbing off for over a year about it, crowing as much as anything, in the last few weeks they’ve mysteriously clammed up about Brexit.

Generally I take a conciliatory approach and accept any legitimate points they might make (there are occasionally some), then simply note that the vote is long since done now so debating it further is pointless… Generally that gets me out of Brexit “conversations”…

A good friend of mine is a tory, unionist brexiteer. We have just agreed in a lightherted manner not to discuss politics. We remain friends

I have one mate who is a Brexit voter. We can still talk in a civil manner over it.

Other than that, all my family and friends are remainers. I literally don’t know anyone in my village who voted Leave – I’m sure there must be, but not amongst those I know and talk to.

Some of the above situations sound horrific.

My parents voted Remain, and also voted for Corbyn as Labour leader, which they don’t regret. I find that strange. We haven’t had cross words about it, which has involved some mutual restraint.

I have one Brexiter in my family, the non-blood side of his family are true blue Tories. I spoke to him about it before the ref and he thought we would just be economically more successful outside. I can’t see how he thought that – he’s a PM for a big 6 IT consultancy so he’s not dim and shouldn’t have a provincial outlook. But confirmation bias is a powerful thing. I chatted to him about it a year or so ago just to see what he thought of the implementation phase, and we were able to agree on how badly it had been done.

He’s a decent enough chap, but his dad (married my cousin) is someone who made ooh, a few mil probably growing and then selling his family business. I think this tends to make you Tory, because in his world it’s easy to make money and be successful. He doesn’t know anything else. So anyone who doesn’t is just being lazy. I think this then leads to an attitude of self reliance that downplays the importance of co-operation – “we don’t need anyone else”.

I do have a couple of Trump supporters on the American side though. Some of the stuff they post I can ignore, but the other day they posted something awfully Christian fundamentalist and I had to make a comment. Fortunately, a few hours later when the rest of the US family woke up and checked their FB they all chipped in on my side, and we talked it out.

My parents voted leave – surprised at my Mum, but Dad’s a Daily Mail reader so zero surprise there – and they did have a blazing row with my brother and his wife 2 weeks ago. My SIS is from South Korea, and immediately after the vote has had a lot of racial abuse, including the day after the result a man coming into her work (she works at a large public attraction in London) wearing a Brexit t-shirt shouting at her that we voted leave so she has to “**** off and leave”, cause you know Asia being part of the EU and all that…
They don’t seem to see that the leave vote has allowed all this racism to resurface into the open again, and also don’t seem to understand that they may have jeopardised their granddaughter’s opportunities to work abroad, or at least make it harder.

I do wonder, going forward, if society should actually be split into two.

Plenty of clubs and memberships that could have “which way did you vote” on the application forms.

Dating websites too, I mean who would go through all the trouble of the dating game to find out when you meet that the other person voted opposite to you.

Jobs even. I don’t think there’s anything in Law that says you can’t ask the question (is here? I’m not in HR but then a lot who are in HR are useless) I know here’s plenty backing up Ethnicity/Gender but not political perversion.

Having separate groups would certainly help society out, you lot have this and you lot have that. We are certainly moving towards that world in the UK so why not embrace it now, save all the hassle down the line.

I might propose that to my lazy arsed MP, I mean they’re getting paid to do sod all.

Re dating website. Reminds me of curb your enthusiasm when Larry’s copping off with a co star in her dressing room, things are going well, until he looks over and sees her framed picture of George Bush ” you’re a republican?” Gets coat

My family are remainers but all my in laws (working class backgrounds) are I understand leavers but it’s never reared its head thank god, despite numerous drunken family get togethers since June 2016. I’m always uneasy though as I know it could easily come up and I’m usually the only sober one. I’d have to argue the point but with kids and teenagers being there id probably just walk away and seethe in the kitchen to avoid lasting damage

A lot of the comments in this thread show the reason why politics is getting poisonous, the narrative that if you voted remain you are educated, enlightened, not racist, and generally superior in every way to the lower class of people who voted leave is clearly not going endear one side to the other.

Since when has the type of discourse we see at the moment changed opinions rather than embedded them and magnified them?

Maybe the clever people should rethink their tactics, because after all they are the clever people with something very easy to sell to their perceived moral inferiors.

You’d think that, but why is it often that when someone gets a university education, they are perceived as “other” or having gained “airs and graces” or having “lost their roots” by their working class fmaily?

That’s as big an issue as the smart people telling them what to do.

I have a small story of hope.

Both my parents voted leave, I was an out and proud Remainer, even had a Remain poster in our window long before the vote. Spent quite a bit of the run-up to the referendum biting my lip so as to not to spoil Sunday dinners. My Dad was an ‘economic’ leaver worried about the Euro crisis, Greece etc.

After the vote I was intensely angry, partly at their shortsightedness, mostly at myself for not having the balls to have it out with them, had a few hundred thousand more of my generation had the gumption to have the same conversations in 2016 we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in now.

Anyway, a few weeks ago whilst we were talking over tea, the conversation slipped into the dangerous waters of Brexit and we finally had ‘the conversation’ we’d both been avoiding for 3 years.

Turns out, that in the past 3 months, he’s slowly changed his own mind. In 2016 he thought he was voting for a sensible, ‘business first’ Brexit with EEA membership and a Norway style end status, he didn’t vote for all the culture war insanity or for economic turmoil, quite the opposite. He still believes that Brexit was the right way to go but now feels bitterly betrayed at the way it’s been hijacked since the vote.

We parted on good terms and with a huge weight off both our shoulders, it can be done, don’t give up on people, especially family.

Both sides of my family are descended from immigrants, however my father (in his eighties) kept emailing me the usual guff about immigrants, muslims, gay people etc. I tried explaining to him that the memes he kept sending me were a) very offensive and b) if you fact checked them you would quickly discover that they were in fact utter lies.

However, when presented with actual evidence he doubled down – he accused me of all sorts of unpleasant things and in doing so broke our already rather fractious relationship beyond repair. He and I no longer speak.

I don’t think there’s anything in Law that says you can’t ask the question (is here?

Specifically, no, but there’s a bunch of stuff which is illegal to ask and this arguably could include political leanings. It’s illegal to ask about memberships and affiliations (unless related to the job), lifestyle choices, religions or beliefs. I’m pretty confident that “how did you vote?” would fall foul of the law under one of those.

The shorthand version is that you’re not allowed to ask any questions which could lead to discrimination, which is ostensibly what you are proposing here.

A lot of the comments in this thread show the reason why politics is getting poisonous, the narrative that if you voted remain you are educated, enlightened, not racist, and generally superior in every way to the lower class of people who voted leave is clearly not going endear one side to the other.

Since when has the type of discourse we see at the moment changed opinions rather than embedded them and magnified them?

Very much this.

Maybe the clever people should rethink their tactics, because after all they are the clever people with something very easy to sell to their perceived moral inferiors.

…and very much this. Calling people stupid racists clearly wasn’t quite as effective a way to win people over as was initially thought.

I think one of the worst aspects of Brexit is (and many posts in this thread typify this) that people seem to have completely forgotten the concept of democracy.

1. Everyone eligible to vote has an equal, democratic right to vote
2. People who vote differently to you may have knowledge which you do not
3. People who vote differently to you may not possess knoledge which you do
4. Even with the same knowledge, people have different value systems

I’ve heard cretinous reasons for voting either way; blind ignorant racism used to justify leaving (not that I do no know racists who voted the other way), and concerns about the annual European holiday as the prime justification for voting remain. however, it does not make voting either way more or less valid.

I think only my father voted to leave, the daily mail reading socialist that he is.(Who would have thought that the left and right would have such common ground)

Purely on immigration, he tries to justify that it wasn’t with “what they did to the greeks” which the Greeks did to themselves, but knowing his background, where he grew up (1950’s race riots around Notting hill), its was only about foreigners.

I have since assertively pointed out that it really isn’t about immigration, but all the things that he as a supposed Socialist should be concerned about, and then pointed out for instance the rise in immigration into this country from outside the EU, he didn’t want to answer that.

I despise racists, so I am being merciless with him.

Both sides of my family are descended from immigrants, however my father (in his eighties) kept emailing me the usual guff about immigrants, muslims, gay people etc. I tried explaining to him that the memes he kept sending me were a) very offensive and b) if you fact checked them you would quickly discover that they were in fact utter lies.

However, when presented with actual evidence he doubled down – he accused me of all sorts of unpleasant things and in doing so broke our already rather fractious relationship beyond repair. He and I no longer speak.

You’ve stopped contact with your Father because he e-mails you unpleasant, bigoted crap. Quite right too. Falling out with him over Brexit wouldn’t be quite so reasonable IMHO.

A lot of the comments in this thread show the reason why politics is getting poisonous, the narrative that if you voted remain you are educated, enlightened, not racist, and generally superior in every way to the lower class of people who voted leave is clearly not going endear one side to the other.

Whilst I agree that it’s not helpful and just drives the wedge deeper, it’s an uncomfortable truth that there was a strong correlation between voter education levels and the way they voted (IIRC it was the second strongest after age, but I’d have to check to be sure).

Even if you don’t believe the post-polls analysis, you only have to spend a few minutes on leave- and remain- forums or Facebook groups to see where all the illiterates, racists and believe-everything-they-readers are congregating.

And it’s hard. You attempt to talk to people with respect and try to word things so that they don’t take offence, then three sentences later they still call you a traitor and a libtard and christ knows what else whilst C&Ping the Lisbon Treaty 2020 meme at you. Calling people names is never going to change minds but my god it’s like trying to educate cheese sometimes. I’ve been trying to have an intelligent conversation with a leaver for three years and outside of STW I’ve managed it precisely twice.

Some men, you just can’t reach.

A lot of the comments in this thread show the reason why politics is getting poisonous, the narrative that if you voted remain you are educated, enlightened, not racist, and generally superior in every way to the lower class of people who voted leave is clearly not going endear one side to the other.

I have yet to see a coherent argument from the other side that would endear them to me, but that is a failing on our part.

We need to educate them.

then pointed out for instance the rise in immigration into this country from outside the EU,

I despise racists,

So one of your arguments for against leaving was that there would be more immigration from outside the EU – ie more immigration of people who aren’t white. On the other hand you despise racists?

Why not welcome everyone equally?

…and very much this. Calling people stupid racists clearly wasn’t quite as effective a way to win people over as was initially thought.

So what do we call stupid racists?

So one of your arguments for against leaving was that there would be more immigration from outside the EU – ie more immigration of people who aren’t white. On the other hand you despise racists?

Do you work for leave means leave? The way you try and fail to twist things makes you look like an idiot.

Idiot.

One of the things that clever remain voters fail to point out is that access to tertiary education has changed significantly in the last 70 years. Many people left school at 14 something incomprehensible to today’s kids.

Ergo higher concentration of tertiary educated millennials as compared to pensioners

Not yet seen any studies stating that intelligence as a population distribution has changed any in the last 70 years, sure someone can find something

But keep going with the narrative of thick and old for leave voters

as for the immigration side, who was Labour supporter Gillian Duffy in Rochdale complaining about in 2010? Commonwealth or European migrants?

Why not welcome everyone equally?

Do you work for leave means leave?

My firm employ outsource guys from the EU and from India. There really is no difference. They all speak English as well as each other. Technically they’re on a par. There is *literally* nothing wrong with the non-EU guys.

it’s an uncomfortable truth that there was a strong correlation between voter education levels and the way they voted (IIRC it was the second strongest after age, but I’d have to check to be sure).

Age was deifnitely the biggest factor, age and education are correlated anyway – Older people tend to have less education that younger people (a minority of my parents generation went to University whereas 50% of my generation have some higher education). I actually think the 2nd biggest factor was whether or not you were Scottish!

My Dad voted Remain, it was never really in any doubt, when I call him we like to discuss what an utter shit show it all is. My Mother didn’t vote.

I know of one or two aunts and uncles who voted leave but I’ve not had any arguments with any relatives over Brexit

My father reckons everything will be exactly the same after brexshit, but “it will keep all and sundry out” (his words, not mine)

That was after asking how my job will be affected by brexshit (I work in Germany for a German company, contracted to an international organisation providing a service contract to the European Commission).

Parents have read the Daily Express since ever. 50 years this Friday 😉

My mother probably voted remain. Her Father was the top guy in various consulates around Europe.  I do wonder wtaf he would make of all this nonsense.

Cousins are all half Brit – half EEA, and I’m not the only one to live/work around Europe, so naturally they’re all remainers too.

I refuse to discuss politics with most family members. Fortunately parents don’t use Farcebook. Personally I think it has become far to poisonous, and believe that for the first time in a long time people should be lined up and tried for treason.

There is *literally* nothing wrong with the non-EU guys.

Spot on, we have/are/could be at a point where we have an arrangement with 27 other nations to have free movement. We can expand that as much as we want.

BUT

Leave had no intent to increase non eu immigration though did it. If leave proposed that they would extend freedom of movement to the entire world we would obviously look at this differently.

The decision for the UK to leave the European Union was overwhelmingly supported in parts of England with low income and education levels.

“Average educational attainment, median income and social class in English local authorities were the strongest predictors of how residents in that area voted in the referendum”.

More here

There is *literally* nothing wrong with the non-EU guys.

Spot on

Yup, that’s why I said it.

FIL voted leave; 2 degrees, ran his own company for 30 years, clearly not stupid. I think the common thread is people getting their opinions straight from the Media (social or otherwise), letting other people do their thinking for them, that’s exactly what he is doing from the conversations we have had. Just for fun I did the old, tell me one way Brexit will make my life better – Oh dear; apparently we won’t have the Germans telling us what to do and we will make much better trade deals negotiating as a single country. That he actually parroted this Daily Fail shite back to me I found extremely depressing. When challenged he stated that he is entitled to his opinion and flounced off He was, of course, unable to justify the pro-brexit position because it is essentially an emotional response that has no rational basis. Maybe that’s just it; people are just going round emoting about it rather than making a calculation.

Of course he is safely retired and sufficiently well off to allow him the luxury an emotional, rather than rational, response. He will weather any adverse affects nicely.

We haven’t fallen out though; you can’t tell someone ‘I told you so’ if you’re not speaking.

“Average educational attainment, median income and social class in English local authorities were the strongest predictors of how residents in that area voted in the referendum”.

I think older people and tradespeople want to leave because older people are established and don’t want growth because growth = countryside under concrete. Tradesmen don’t like the competition. Plus people at the very bottom of the heap will always vote against the establishment. These three groups are typically less well educated.

Younger people want to remain because for them the advantages of growth outweigh the disadvantages of growth. I see it local to me in terms of housing provision. Younger friends welcome the building because (although they like the outdoors as much as the next man) they will likely want to be buying the homes being built. Older established people object to the building because they don’t gain from it.

So it seems to me that attitude to growth explains the demographics voting each way without needing to consider any nefarious factors at all. Occams razon applies.

Then there’s people in big towns: Townies like growth because they benefit, but don’t get the new buildings/infrastructure built on their open spaces. Nobody’s building new dwellings on Hyde park, for instance.

As a graduate, I think I can poke a few holes in the education aspect, without hypocrisy. First of “graduate” in what and from where? Secondly, education does not and never has equated to either success or intelligence.

Ludwig von Mises

Many who are self-taught far excel the doctors, masters, and bachelors of the most renowned universities

Maybe the clever people should rethink their tactics, because after all they are the clever people with something very easy to sell to their perceived moral inferiors

Remove all tax on booze and cigerrettes, make smack legal, free johhny machines on every corner, legalise food additives that ‘accidentally’ sterilise them, make child care as expensive as possible with tax breaks and incentives if you are university educated. Death sentences for wearing Burberry, north face or addidas. Give all coppers guns, then legalise fake knock off toy firearms again and widely distributed them on council estates.

As a graduate, I think I can poke a few holes in the education aspect, without hypocrisy. First of “graduate” in what and from where? Secondly, education does not and never has equated to either success or intelligence.

I could not argue with any of that. However in my wife’s family and as I understand it nationally, experience of post 16 levels of education is a clear divider in opinions on Brexit. You don’t have to legitimise one side over the other to recognise that it has deepened divides and loathing, even within families.

Overnight my wife took the decision to just unfriend all her family on Fb. That way if she was to ever post anything political (very rare) it will not rile her relatives and similarly she won’t see what they post either. It was very clear that in the echo chamber of her 400 odd friends on FB her family were the exception and she stood out like a sore thumb on theirs. The fact that the two tribes are increasingly separating with both receiving confirmation on a daily basis of the correctness of their opinion is not healthy imo. I do wonder how much of where we have got to has been caused by social media and also the fact that for a significant proportion of the population news is not something that you get from a national broadcaster any more but through the edit of social media share of people very much minded the same as you.

The only upside I can see personally is I have now got a clear and legitimate ticket to never attend a social function involving her relatives ever again.

No issues at all in my family but then we recognise it is only politics and there is a lot more to life than that.

The two most ardent Brexit supporters are my cousin, who has spent her adult life in mainland Europe (and as a result didn’t have a vote). She is a historian and so it is a question of the importance of sovereignty; the other is my brother in law who is a peripatetic IT consultant who has spent most of the last 20 years doing short term projects all over the place. He has the advantage of speaking three languages fluently and also can get by in a few more. Some of his work has been at EU institutions and he has just come to the conclusion that the project is moribund. He recognises he may have to confront more bureaucracy but that is a price he is happy to pay.

My brother and I both voted remain but are relaxed about it, in 15 years time we will wonder what all the fuss was about. Likewise my sister who lives in Italy is pretty relaxed and much more concerned about the state of the Italian economy.

As far as a local pub is concerned, I have only heard remainers ranting, although I do live in a very heavily remain area. The Brexiters I encounter generally understand their arguments better, some are globalist and regard Europe as parochial and a busted flush, some who run successful medium sized businesses want to see reform as they argue the regulatory environment favours established players and is a disincentive to innovation, and others look at it from a sovereignty point of view.

A lot of the comments in this thread show the reason why politics is getting poisonous, the narrative that if you voted remain you are educated, enlightened, not racist, and generally superior in every way to the lower class of people who voted leave is clearly not going endear one side to the other.
Since when has the type of discourse we see at the moment changed opinions rather than embedded them and magnified them?
Maybe the clever people should rethink their tactics, because after all they are the clever people with something very easy to sell to their perceived moral inferiors.

^^This^^ absolutely!!!

It’s part of the reason I shy away from arguements with leavers in general, I’m pretty middleclass, it can’t be helped. I’m the lefty, university educated child, of lefty university educated parents, with a relatively comfortable white collar job and no real hardships to speak of. The last thing I want is to start seeming condescending or like I’m talking down to people who don’t have my relatively advantaged background and don’t share my, oh so enlightened, views..
So when it does crop up I do make a concious effort to listen to and aknowledge some of the points that are made by leavers, The EU is certainly not perfect, not every argument for leaving is without merit or racist…

It’s worth noting that quite apart from the ardent brexiteers a lot of people voted leave as a protest related to various other aligned topics”, based more on a general feeling of disengagement with politics and the “political classes” reflecting current UK social problems the impact of austerity, etc, etc…
These people who you might have called “casual Brexiteers” back in 2016 have probably hardenened in their views/feelings since. They’ve seen the unexpected sucess of their leave vote, undermined by the failure of the same politicians they were protesting. Pretty much the narrative the champions of Brexit sought to push. And the issues they were originally concerned about have been swept aside by two years of aimless Brexit banter… Their anger is quite frankly justified, but they are being channeled and whipped up to a palpable rage by various influencers. While those of us who were angry remainers/remoaners have similarly been worked on to keep the angst and fear up. Everyone is being nudged towards conflict, why? Because ‘Likes’ and because we’ve become a social media test lab for US Alt-right think tanks and Russian hackers… but cogent debate and sensible compromise suffers.

The thing is now that both positions are more entrenched today than they were in 2016, so seeking compromise in a climate of increasingly heavy rhetoric is only going to get more dificult.

If we do have another referendum, I’d not expect the outcome to be a massive swing to remain or leave, it could perhaps be a few points to one side or the other, it’s too close to call. And I think we’d still have a very divided society afterwards… Even as a keen remainer I’m not sure I want a 2nd referendum right now…

There’s a couple of my friends on FB – one in particular – who are quite vocal leavers.

This particular guy posted a comment under a news story about how Brexit had split a certain region with him saying that there should be a law against people opposing a democratic vote.

I couldn’t believe the stupidity of it – that’s the very opposite of democracy! As Cougar mentions above, the chances of having a civil conversation in person or online with a Leaver is very small, it rapidly falls into shouts of “we won, you lost, get over it”, “traitor” and “remoaner”.

when asked what it is exactly that they have won, what things can they do once we leave the EU that they’re unable to do now because of EU rules, they go very quiet before once again reverting to “levae means leave, we should just leave” and occasional references to the war. “My grandfather didn’t need a visa when he stormed the beaches” so therefore we’ll be fine.

🙄

It’s genuinely terrifying how split down the middle this country has now become, how Brexit has emboldendd casual racism and completely ruined what little trust there was in politics.

I have an elderly aunt who gets all of her information from the Daily Mail, and whom isn’t aware that there’s anything wrong with it.

She also states quite openly that “there was no point in winning the war if we’re just going to let the Germans tell us what to day anyway”

We don’t see a lot of each other . . . .

I don’t think its Brexit as such thats been so divisive, as the other stuff thats gone along with this twitch of illiberalism. Mainly the whole racist rhetoric

My family are all liberal, pinko Guardian readers, but I’ve been quite surprised to see how some of my old mates, who’s political opinions I hadn’t really known, or thought about have, since the referendum, gone full Tommy Robinson/EDL on Social Meedja, posting up Britain First nonsense. Its been an eye-opener

There are a few people I thought were alright who I now know are actually really, really racist and hold some pretty unpleasant opinions.

I like to keep them all added on Friendface as its an interesting portal into the opinions of leavers

A lot of the comments in this thread show the reason why politics is getting poisonous, the narrative that if you voted remain you are educated, enlightened, not racist, and generally superior in every way to the lower class of people who voted leave is clearly not going endear one side to the other.

Since when has the type of discourse we see at the moment changed opinions rather than embedded them and magnified them?

Maybe the clever people should rethink their tactics, because after all they are the clever people with something very easy to sell to their perceived moral inferiors.

Well said big_n_daft. Frankly if my children had posted some of the vitriol I’ve seen on here I’d be disowning them. Sort yourselves out people.