No he delivered a perfect Brexit lead troll posting there, was perfect really picked out facts, offered no comparison to make then more or less resonable and then chucked some emotion at it.

Actually mike, it came across a bit more as:

No idea what side of the argument B&D is on, but this is insightful…

…this is precisely the sort of thing that got their goat enough to vote.

Whether it is factual or not at this stage is unimportant. The question is why people voted the way they did. This is why. This is what they percieve.

Maybe instead of deriding arguments try and actually listen to the people who are attempting to get you to see things from another perspective. You talk about objectivity as if it’s a one sided process. Outofbreath summed it up perfectly:

If you can’t understand the other guy’s argument you can’t hope to win him round, and once the name calling starts there’s zero hope of anyone changing their mind.

Tick, tock…

Brexit really has opened up a massive chasm in British society. Even on a thread like this where the subject is about ruined family relationships due to the vote, people can’t help themselves and spit poisonous inflammatory comments with no sense of irony.
I do think that we are at peak vitriol at the moment while the government procrastinates over our exit. While Brexit will roll on for years to come I think that it will slowly slide out of the headlines and peoples level of interest and attitudes will soften. Hopefully one day it might even be like 2015 again !
James O Brian though – seriously no one has done more to stoke division than this man that I can recall in my lifetime.

It would be easier to have a discussion about all this if anyone came up with a coherent argument for what will be better if we’re outside the EU.

An overview of the case for and against here:

https://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit-0

Possibly a bit late for you to be thinking about this. Maybe three years ago would have been better!

Brexit really has opened up a massive chasm in British society.

Agree and nobody gave a toss one year before the referendum. It was eighth on voters priority list.

Pity all this great intellect couldn’t get their shit together to prevent this mess. Especially when the “other side” are so stupid.

Because it isn’t our mess. Blaming those who reacted with abject horror at Brexit for it’s subsequent failure misses the mark. Blame those who had no plan, no contingency and no thought for what happens once everything is torched. This failure is on them, along with everyone who still continues to support them.

Pity all this great intellect couldn’t get their shit together to prevent this mess.

We did try, but we weren’t listened to. ‘It’ll be a huge mess’ was one of the arguments IIRC.

The bottom line is that lots of people who don’t really understand what the EU does voted against it without knowing how leaving could be implemented. This doesn’t command respect, does it?

Of course they have legitimate grievances – most of us do about one thing or another – and these things need addressing. I am a leftie as well as a remainer, and that means wanting to provide for the disadvantaged. I just don’t think leaving the EU will achieve this.

If you can’t understand the other guy’s argument you can’t hope to win him round, and once the name calling starts there’s zero hope of anyone changing their mind.

^^This. As the old saying goes “listen twice, speak once”. I’m a remained but have family and friends who are leavers – there’s zero value in deriding or undermining their views or then attacking them & calling them racists/stupid/gammons or whatever. That’s not going to help progress things. We should be listening to and getting under the skin of their concerns, and seeing what we as a society can do to help improve the situation that drives the fear.

Something that nobody in the Remain camp at steering level seems to have done is look at the classic 6 motives that anyone in business knows drive decisions (my feelings are this is because we now have career politicians with no real life experience but that’s another conversation altogether!):

1) Desire for financial gain
2) Fear of financial loss
3) Comfort and convenience
4) Security and protection
5) Pride of ownership
6) Satisfaction of emotion

I’ve actually had some really interesting conversations with pretty vocal leavers and heard some points I simply hadn’t considered because they were outside my sphere of experience. Not all were correct (often perception rather than fact) but they’re rooted in the daily challenges people face, and we should try to understand, respectfully challenge and then assist with these things if we’re to avoid further societal division.

Getting back to the friends and family theme…

I know quite a few guys in other trades that voted for Brexit and some of them are fairly vocal about it. These were plasterers, plumbers, kitchen fitters etc whose details I’d pass to clients when asked for recommendations. I haven’t said anything but nobody that voted Leave gets any business passed from me anymore. It may be that I don’t get anything passed from them either of course. I don’t think anybody is going under because of it, but I’m not sharing the wealth with any of them.

I’m generally in a remain bubble with my peer group. I still hear a bit of English exceptionalism from one or two of the remainers – but I think that characteristic is a bit ingrained – “we should remain but we should always get special treatment when we ask…” – and is regarded as “healthy” euroscepticism. On mrs DD’s side of the family, I suspect a few of them are quiet leavers – and mostly Tories – we just try not to discuss politics with them. I saw quite a bit of Islamophobic memes around the time of Boris’s post-box article going up on social media from a few of the (sadly) younger ones. It would make me a bit sad if I knew how they really felt given that mrs DD is married to an EU immigrant (albeit one with a few more rights than other EU citizens). We just let it go. I don’t think we’ll change any of their minds.

As far as my side of the family is concerned, well, they’re all Irish so, at times, can’t understand what the bloody hell is going on – although I’ve noticed a bit of hardening of attitudes after the ignorance spouted by many of the mainstream Brexiteers about the GFA, peace process, (Anglo-)Irish history and their rights to an Irish passport. I’ve had to read a lot of that here too from some of the Leavers and the quitlings. :o) I’ve found myself at times explaining how the referendum went the way it did i.e. trying to articulate why Leavers voted to leave – but it’s difficult when despite a bit of cynicism towards the UK, most of them believed that common sense would always prevail when the Brits had a big decision to make – until June 2016. Now they just think the whole country’s gone a bit mad.

Blame those who had no plan, no contingency and no thought for what happens once everything is torched.

The lack of plan/contingency/thought *was* the remainers, David Cameron was responsible for the drafting of the question which gave no detail whatsoever about what ‘leave’ actually meant. The remainers were certain they’d win and saw no need to provide any detail on what leaving might mean.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum/eu-referendum-question-assessment

https://www.ft.com/content/b56b2b36-1835-37c6-8152-b175cf077ae8

nobody that voted Leave gets any business passed from me anymore.

Well obviously not, tradesmen who vote leave will most likely be British & nobody has recommended a British tradesman since about 2007… You wouldn’t give work to a British agricultural worker either.

That’s not politics, it’s just you running an efficient business.

The lack of plan/contingency/thought *was* the remainers, David Cameron was responsible for the drafting of the question which gave no detail whatsoever about what ‘leave’ actually meant. The remainers were certain they’d win and saw no need to provide any detail on what leaving might mean.

Blimey. There’s some proper contortions going on here.

Blimey. There’s some proper contortions going on here.

This, but no need for the “blimey”.

Blimey. There’s some proper contortions going on here.

This

I think lack of detail of what ‘Leave’ actually meant was a bad thing. I’m not alone in that. We can’t blame anyone in the Leave Campaign for that, they didn’t draft the question.

I’m more than happy to hear an alternative viewpoint if you’re able to provide one.

James O Brian though – seriously no one has done more to stoke division than this man that I can recall in my lifetime.

Really?, all he’s done is call out lies and shysters, but I figure that’s why it’s hit a nerve with you

The lack of plan/contingency/thought *was* the remainers

You seem to be confusing Cameron with “remainers” in general.
Yes he did make several mistakes but those were mostly underestimating the sheer levels of dishonesty from the leave campaigns.

The lack of plan/contingency/thought *was* the remainers, David Cameron was responsible for the drafting of the question which gave no detail whatsoever about what ‘leave’ actually meant. The remainers were certain they’d win and saw no need to provide any detail on what leaving might mean.

You seem to be confusing Cameron with “remainers” in general.

I’m saying he wasn’t in the Leave campaign. Ergo leavers didn’t write the question, ergo they can’t be blamed for the woeful lack of detail in the question. I should have been much clearer about that, sorry.

Having said that Cameron was quite a high profile figure in the Remain campaign, by no means a leaver.

Lol at big n daft and Stewart. First up if you don’t understand the system used to elect mep’s just look it up. For contrast how easy is it to remove a Rees mogg from a safe tory seat

Both Farage and Hannan are top of their respective party’s lists so based on the 2014 elections is would require a collapse in their party’s share of more than 20% to get rid of them. Jacob Rees-Mogg’s constituency was regarded as a tight marginal before 2010, he won by just under 10% in 2010 but has increased his lead to just under 19%. On this basis, Rees Mogg would be easier to get rid of that the aforementioned MEPs.

I’m more than happy to hear an alternative viewpoint if you’re able to provide one.

Why would remain plan to leave? There would have been plenty of time after the referendum to plan to leave and then activate article 50.

Instead article 50 was activated far too hastily, which has left us where we are now.

Alternative enough for you?

Why would remain plan to leave? There would have been plenty of time after the referendum to plan to leave and then activate article 50.

I think that the question should have been posed with enough detail that people knew what they were voting for. We still don’t know what “leave” meant. I’m not alone in that view.

Instead article 50 was activated far too hastily, which has left us where we are now.

…by a remainer.

Sorry Mikewsmith, It’s not incumbent on the electorate to understand the system used to elect MEP ‘s. The electorate either get it or they don’t. It’s the point I was trying to make on the thread I started asking “Have you ever voted in a European Parliament election? I haven’t” Where I dared to question their authenticity, relevance and degree to which the EU parliament is responsible for the mess we all find ourselves in.

It’s beyond Brexit, look at the problems every European country is facing, they could all ask the similar questions relating to the way the European parliament is elected and functions and how it relates to the national predicaments they find themselves in.

In calling big and daft a brexit troll for pointing out problems that might be systemic makes you look as blinkered as a brexit headbanger.

I think that the question should have been posed with enough detail that people knew what they were voting for. We still don’t know what “leave” meant. I’m not alone in that view.

The result should have gone back to Parliament and discussed until a consensus had been reached. Instead, you had a Government that tried to keep Parliament out of it, and a new PM whose modus operandi was the same as it was at the Home Office. You also have to consider the personnel that she surrounded herself with. Speaking of which:

…by a remainer.

OOB you are so predictable. Do you still believe that with what has happened in the last three years?

My parents voted the opposite way from their children and grandchildren in both the recent referendums. It hasn’t been a problem we still talk politics just don’t allow the conversation to drag on too long.
In my own experience the Brexit referendum didn’t have the same heat in Scotland. A dull and low key remain campaign still easily beating leave.

No he delivered a perfect Brexit lead troll posting there, was perfect really picked out facts, offered no comparison to make then more or less resonable and then chucked some emotion at it.

I don’t agree. I think he was bang on the money in articulating what leave voters think and where their concerns lie.

I mean, it has absolutely zero bearing on reality, of course. But it’s a good example of what they believe to be true.

We did try, but we weren’t listened to. ‘It’ll be a huge mess’ was one of the arguments IIRC.

“Project fear.”

If anyone is genuinely, seriously going to stand there at the eleventh hour and 59 minutes going “why did no-one warn us?” I’ll be very torn between laughing in their face and slapping it really hard.

there’s zero value in deriding or undermining their views or then attacking them & calling them racists/stupid/gammons or whatever. That’s not going to help progress things. We should be listening to and getting under the skin of their concerns, and seeing what we as a society can do to help improve the situation that drives the fear.

Couldn’t agree more with that.

We still don’t know what “leave” meant. I’m not alone in that view.

So you would want a fully fleshed out leave proposition which would require the negotiations to be done before holding it? Its up to people, as the electorate, to look at what was being proposed as potential leave options and decide which if any they should be associated with.

It’s not incumbent on the electorate to understand the system used to elect MEP ‘s

ermm yes it is if they want to whinge about it and blame the **** EU for a UK (or more specifically Great Britain) choice of voting systems.

there’s zero value in deriding or undermining their views or then attacking them & calling them racists/stupid/gammons or whatever. That’s not going to help progress things. We should be listening to and getting under the skin of their concerns, and seeing what we as a society can do to help improve the situation that drives the fear.

Couldn’t agree more with that.

Whilst me heart agrees, my head says **** em

Why bother? They’ve wanted to split the country in half, happy to pick fights with remainers and what were we called a year or so ago? Oh yeah snowflakes.

Well the winter of discontent has certainly ruffled your pasty cheeks.

I say keep the divide now. It’s what they all wanted, they’ve got it.

🤷‍♂️

Are we arguing again? Cool.

Fortunately I not longer have to bear my ex-wife’s side of the family (they all voted leave). Not that I mind that they voted leave particularly. It’s more that they are all, to a man and woman, the worst type of bigoted, racist, self serving and entitled bunch of cluster****s you could possibly imagine. Reading their hilarious attempts to now apply reasoning to their decisions on Facebook is somewhat akin to watching a small monkey trying to shag a football.

In my own experience the Brexit referendum didn’t have the same heat in Scotland. A dull and low key remain campaign still easily beating leave.

Interesting parallel. I currently live in England but my mother lives in Scotland and reports the same. Scotland is far more united on brexit than they were on independence and it is a better place for it than the rest of the UK. As someone who voted against independence (though since Brexit has changed her stance somewhat) she experienced quite a lot of animosity. The independent supporters in Scotland and the Brexit supports in England do have loosely similar socio-economic make up. In both situations the more middle class anti brexit and anti independence supporters could rightly be accused of being a bit high minded and the brexit and independence supporter more emotive, heart led and maybe irrational.

Whilst education clearly does not give you intelligence does the experience of it give you better resilience to debate? I would suggest the thing my degree taught me beyond everything else was an ability to perceive nuance, to doubt and health check source material and to debate without seeing it as a personal attack. In my wife’s family at least it is the brexit voting family members that left school at 16 that can’t be mature about it in their dealing with those that have differing opinions. Sure, it is easy to find examples in both camps that have behaved very badly (I’ve done it myself plenty) but speaking in generalities that’s what I’m seeing.

ermm yes it is if they want to whinge about it and blame the **** EU for a UK (or more specifically Great Britain) choice of voting systems.

We can only choose the system to an extent, it has to be a form of proportional representation. We couldn’t have FPTP, but we could have STV like in Northern Ireland.

So you would want a fully fleshed out leave proposition which would require the negotiations to be done before holding it? Its up to people, as the electorate, to look at what was being proposed as potential leave options and decide which if any they should be associated with.

No, what I think should have happened is nothing, until an existing or future party campaigned in a GE on a Leave ticket and (if they win a sufficient majority) pull us out. They propose it, they win a majority to do it, and they carry it out and take responsibility for it. That’s how representative democracy works.

However, if you think a referendum on this was a good idea then I think that the question should have been posed with enough detail that people knew what they were voting for. (Which is exactly what I said.)

Its up to people, as the electorate, to look at what was being proposed as potential leave options and decide which if any they should be associated with.

No it’s not. And the perpetuation of this myth is what has brought us to this point.

It’s up parliament, as the electorate’s representatives, to look at what was being proposed as potential leave options and decide which if any they should be associated with.

This is, quite literally, their job. It’s not our responsibility at all, if it were then we could all look forward to enjoying the ‘brexit dividend’ we’d save by disbanding parliament and turning Westminster into affordable housing.

James O Brian though – seriously no one has done more to stoke division than this man that I can recall in my lifetime.

Really? Just really? More than Farage and Tommy Robinson?

O’Brien has simply given the country a much needed slap round the face.

I couldn’t give a shit about any Brexit supporter whining about division, leavers are the people who created that division, they can **** well find their own way to put the lid back on.

No it’s not. And the perpetuation of this myth is what has brought us to this point.

It’s up parliament … This is, quite literally, their job.

+1.

And the perpetuation of this myth is what has brought us to this point.

Sorry but it isnt a myth. Once the decision was given to people to vote it was up to them to look at what was being proposed and decide which, if any, they wanted and how much they trusted the brexit elite to deliver.

Sorry but it isnt a myth. Once the decision was given to people to vote it was up to them to look at what was being proposed and decide which, if any, they wanted and how much they trusted the brexit elite to deliver.

Nope. Even after the referendum the responsibility and the decision still lay with Parliament, and as we have seen Parliament can do whatever they think it best, including remaining or kicking it into the long grass which is obviously what they’re going to do. (One or other.)

The referendum was/is purely advisory, a poll, an indication.

Once the decision was given to people to vote it was up to them to look at what was being proposed

Oh, sure, if you’re simply talking about casting a vote. That’s how votes work, it’s the responsibility of the electorate to vote according to their best judgements of course.

But with an advisory referendum it’s still not their place to then mandate or demand anything though, that responsibility lies with parliament. Something something sovereignty something, remember? We had a court case and everything.

We’re living in a time where people can scream about sovereignty and democracy, and in the next breath demand the will of the people be carried out irrespective of the wishes of parliament whilst simultaneously shouting down the notion of a people’s vote to confirm what the will of the people actually is. You couldn’t make it up, this country truly has lost it’s ****ing mind.

Putting that another way, consider the question:

Are you in favour of parliamentary sovereignty [yes|no]?

If yes, then the “will of the people” is an irrelevance, parliament makes decisions in the best interests of the country. That is literally what sovereignty means.

If you believe that the will of the people must be obeyed at all costs then parliament is no longer sovereign. “Sovereignty is the full right and power of a governing body over itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies.” You can’t have it both ways as these two things are mutually exclusive. Why do you hate sovereignty, traitor?

there’s zero value in deriding or undermining their views or then attacking them & calling them racists/stupid/gammons or whatever. That’s not going to help progress things.

Not sure what there is to “progress”? I’m not calling leavers ignorant, racist gammons because I imagine I’m changing their minds or turning them into caring lovely people 🙂

I’m not calling leavers ignorant, racist gammons

I’m not calling leavers ignorant, racist gammons. Just the ones who are. (-:

Are you in favour of parliamentary sovereignty [yes|no]?

They are two different contexts, this is just a really dumb question.