Another war in Gaza

Oh i dunno?…..state sponsored/sanctioned war crimes by the usa? – If i was palestinian and spent my entire life suffering under a regime that is directly supported by the usa i guess i’d consider them a legitimate target.

I’ve been stuck in the car on a singletrack road due to a hellish flood for the past 6 hrs, soaking wet and freezing through and i’m finally in the door and about to head back out at 7am to go and do a 12hr shift at my old workplace to help them out with xmas orders so i’m rather pi$$ed off and liable to write what i genuinely believe regarding the israeli/palestine situation so i’d better just walk away from the keyboard before i get banned, or worse/locked up.

And breathe……….

fighting over a bit of land/oil/whatever and killing each other. It’s all about power. We need to grow up as a human species.

we haven’t changed in thousands of years of “civilisation” we wont’t start now. Being aggressive over territory and killing competition is a fundamental hard-wired animal response.

we are just apes in clothes, there are no higher ideals

Maybe if the supplier of rockets to Hamas was stopped then Israel would stop firing their rockets. I remember someone once saying let sleeping dogs lie – keep whacking it with a stick and expect the worse!

But that wouldn’t stop Israel grabbing yet more land and water. No doubt the shares of the US arms companies are doing well anticipating the repeat business and restocking…

Maybe if the supplier of rockets to Hamas was stopped then Israel would stop firing their rockets

Maybe if Israel didn’t operate such aggressive expansion policies (lebensraum?), Hamas wouldn’t feel compelled to act with violence.

How anyone can possible equate the actions ofHamas militants with what the IDF are doing beggars beleif. Keep beleiving the bullshit you’re being fed. Of course Israel are the innocent victims. Of course.

A man is given a home with a garden next to people who have lived there for a very long time.

Man decides to take section of neighbour’s garden.

Neighbours then subjected to campaign of brutality and inhumane treatment lasting decades.

Both sides are clearly as bad as each other and to suggest anything else would be ridiculous.

Ninety-four Palestinians and three Israelis have died since Wednesday.

Maybe if the supplier of rockets to Hamas was stopped then Israel would stop firing their rockets. I remember someone once saying let sleeping dogs lie – keep whacking it with a stick and expect the worse

In what sense are they sleeping – they are still doing land grabs, still keeping them in , stopping them from having medicine etc. Seriously in what sense is Israel just sleeping ?
PS Love thy enemy as thyself and all that eh

I dont get thi sargument

If i want to take a peacful people and turn then in to irrate terrorists who elect extremistst and bomb legitimate sates then what i would suggest to spain, for example, would be to annex Portugal illegally, start land grabs, build on their land, put an economic emabrgo on them and dont give them basics like medicine or water. Obvioulsy when the portugeses get a little upset by this and act as terrorists dont forget to call them names, blame them and then bomb the living shit out of them to keep them in the dark ages.
To create terrorists and discontent amongst the masses all you need to do is to treat the country and people as Israel has treated the Palestinians, israel claims to want peace yet its poilicies ensure it will never ever happen.

Have the Palestinians ever been peaceful?

Has Israel ever been peaceful?

Lovely allusion comparing the israeli government to the nazis there mike. I don’t think we can quite say they’re on a par. Even their most horrific single act (Sabra/Shatila) is not quite on the level of the pogroms committed in Eastern Europe.

I think this thread needs that list of all the UN resolutions of which Israel is in breach. Can anyone on a desktop find it?

Can someone also provide a list of all the terrorist attacks carried out by the Palestinians or organisation aligned with their cause also, just to remain some sort of balance?

Both lists should provide a good example of how pointless this all is and that violence general doesnt resolve anything in the long run.

I dont think anyone is trying to say violence is great however the fact remains that Israel is the single greatest violator of UN resolutions and this ignores the fact that the US vetoes many of those against Israel- it is certainly not something to be proud of and would suggest they are not that nice to the Palestinians.

However wee seem to have descended into a childish well he hit me so I hit him debate neither side is perfect and the issue is what will bring about peace

can we actually try and have an adult conversation where we accept that both sides do bad things and suggest some possibly solutions rather than just blindly supporting one side and blaiming the other?

Again I repeat that what Israel is doing is the perfect way to breed terrorism and extremism would an Isaralie supporter/defende however you wish to be labelled explain to me how it will bring about peace?

Lovely allusion comparing the israeli government to the nazis there mike. I don’t think we can quite say they’re on a par.

i wasn’t suggesting they are. i was merely comparing expansionist policies. Other than the numbers involved and the direct method of removal of people, there is little difference between the two.

And before anyone goes off on one and accuses me of being an anti-semite: ‘lebensraum’ was the exact word used by a Jewish friend thisw weekend, durning a conversation about the situation in Palestine.

Other than the numbers involved and the direct method of removal of people, there is little difference between the two.

So you mean other than the actual details there’s little to choose between them. Fair enough.

If the Israelis were the same as the Nazi-era Germans, they’d have taken ALL of Palestine, purged every single undesirable from the area and effectively enslaved the rest. The rhetoric on this issue is sky-high as it is, not sure exaggeration brings anything to the argument. I’m no supporter of Israel, far from it, but maybe a cut on hyperbole would help the argument a little or at least make it less polarised.

maybe a cut on hyperbole would help the argument a little or at least make it less polarised.

Maybe have a word with this charming character then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effi_Eitam

Eitam has called Israeli Arabs a “cancer”: “[T]he Israeli Arabs are in large measure the ticking bomb beneath the whole democratic Israeli order inside the [1967] Green Line. Even today, in the Galilee and the Negev, a de facto autonomy of theirs is being created, which could in practice turn Israel into the bubble of Metropolitan Tel Aviv .… Therefore, I say that the State of Israel today faces an existential threat that is characterized by being an elusive threat, and elusive threats by their nature resemble cancer. Cancer is a type of illness in which most of the people who die from it die because they were diagnosed too late. By the time you grasp the size of the threat, it is already too late to deal with it.”.[11] Commenting on this, the veteran Israeli journalist, Akiva Eldar, wrote in Haaretz, “The fact that the Nazis were especially fond of this [cancer] metaphor is probably not lost on the general.” [12] In 2004, Eitam called the Palestinians “dark forces” and said “We will have to kill them all” [13]
Eitam has used the concept of Lebensraum as the basis for his arguments that all Arabs and Palestinians should be persuaded or forced to leave Israel and the Palestinian Territories.[14]

^ Graham, Stephen (2004). Cities, War and Terrorism: Towards an Urban Geopolitics (Studies in Urban and Social Change). Wiley-Blackwell. pp. 204. ISBN 1405115750. “Eitam argues that, ultimately, Israel should strive to force or ‘persuade’ all Arabs and Palestinians to leave Israel and the occupied territories — to be accommodated in Jordan and the Sinai (Egypt)…..Eitam has even explicitly used the German concept of Lebensraum (living space) – a cornerstone of the Holocaust — to underpin his arguments.”

Oh come on. If all you did was post quotes from extremist nutters on both sides of the debate you’d be here for weeks posting nothing but bollocks. Plenty of Israelis and Palestinians (and their respective supporters) advocate the absolute destruction of the other in terms that invoke the holocaust. Doesn’t mean you have to.

I can see why folk make comaprisons with the nazis but it is ott

It does seem like they [ humans in general seem guilty of this] have leanrt nothing from history and it is hard to argue that they are not persecuting the palestinians a sthey were for centuries – driven from their homes [1948] and banned etc.

Shameful for humanity whatever the religious view is

I shall leave you to the hyperbole

Mikeoconnor you need to raise your game. you find one quote from a has-been religeious extremist that was once in the knesset, and another from you’re ‘jewish friend’ a that’s how you make your case? Your bringing about as much to this debate as deadlydarcy. You both need to spend more time on your bike imho.

Junkyard. – you should at least keep up the pretense of being objective. can you really see why ‘folk make the comparisons with nazis’ or are you just being nice to mike? I had a little hope for you, but now am not so sure.

you don’t need to say that israel has a right to exist to satisfy me. Any reasonable person would take that for granted. The point is that Hamas need to think that. Because until they do, there is no one for Israel to talk to vis a viz gaza. Hamas refuse to talk to any representative of Israel, as they simply don’t recognize them.

And its not that Palestine ‘could attack’ – they did attack. the fact is that they blew up an army Jeep on the israel side of the border, and then fired ~50 rockets into israel’s south before Jabri was targeted. Yes, maybe Israel could have ignored those 50 rockets… Well, they ignored the first 10, then the second 10 and so on. in fact, they’ve ignored thousands of them over the past 7 years.. and so? has it bought them closer to peace? – no. they need to talk. But they can’t talk, because Hamas wont talk.

Your historical narrative is flawed, but nevertheless the jist of your argument seems to follow. something like: ‘The Palestinians have been abused since 1948 by Israel, and therefore even though it may not be right, we should expect them to try to blow up Israeli civilians’

I mean correct me if i missed something in all your sarcastic waffle, but isn’t that basically it?
sorry, that’s a sh*t argument.

Here’s mine:
Israel needs to stop building on disputed land. Hamas need to recognize Israel. Fatah and Hamas need to agree on common objections. Israel has a right to try to stop the rockets fire from Gaza taking necessary precautions to protect civilians. Zero rocket fired should be rewarded by appropriate relaxation of security measures. Those are the preconditions for being able to start negotiations.

oh.. and Hamas need to admit that fajr5 is a stupid name for a rocket.

Incidentally, thanks for complementing my put down. i can assure u thats 100% original- post ride creativity i think.

samj – Member
But they can’t talk, because Hamas wont talk.

Wasn’t Ahmed al-Jabari one of Hamas’ negotiators and isn’t it alleged that he had truce papers (for discussion/negotiation?) in his possession at the time of the missile attack?

Genuine question – I don’t know.

JY – I smiled and thought of you when I read this today:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100190366/for-once-there-is-no-ambiguity-the-today-programmes-report-on-gaza-this-morning-was-totally-and-utterly-biased/

I guess if you keep using sticks to poke at the Nile crocodile then the result will be inevitable …

There you go poking at the crocodile …

teamhurtmore,

I think someone posted a link to an article on that above. Clearly no one knows for what he had in his possession. I’m sure that there are also argument that israel had been plotting this in retaliation for Gilat shalit abduction for a while.

The truth is, there have been a number of informal truces between Israel and Hamas which periodically stops the rocket fire (there was one after cast lead, there will surely be one after the current round) – these are generally done via an intermediary.

And while these provide temporary respite, they dont get to the heart of the matter. – which is that the only long term solution is for Hamas to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist..

The following is a quote from Hamas charter for example. (my bold)

..the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion

ie its all or nothing.
Thats the problem. Its at the heart of what they stand for..

Israel needs to stop building on disputed land. Hamas need to recognize Israel. Fatah and Hamas need to agree on common objections. Israel has a right to try to stop the rockets fire from Gaza taking necessary precautions to protect civilians. Zero rocket fired should be rewarded by appropriate relaxation of security measures. Those are the preconditions for being able to start negotiations.

What tactics do you think Hamas/the Palestinians should use in order to stop their land/water supplies being further annexed – and how successful do you think they will be?

What tactics do you think Hamas/the Palestinians should use in order to stop their land/water supplies being further annexed – and how successful do you think they will be?

As i’ve said, and you’ve quoted. Hamas need to recognize Israel, Fatah and Hamas need to agree on common objectives.

This is a pre-requesite for any hope of peaceful success. I think they will be far more successful this way than by armed resistance which hasn’t done them any favors till now and has led to unnecessary loss of civilian lives.

one more for JY et al:
Its on Cast lead, though not much has changed…

Your historical narrative is flawed, but nevertheless the jist of your argument seems to follow. something like: ‘The Palestinians have been abused since 1948 by Israel, and therefore even though it may not be right, we should expect them to try to blow up Israeli civilians’

I mean correct me if i missed something in all your sarcastic waffle, but isn’t that basically it?
sorry, that’s a sh*t argument.

You know you have missed something but if that is what you are going to do and just say bias at me I really dont see the point in debate – would you prefer i call you names and call your view waffle and shit?
Its an emotive issue but I have no desire to add to the collective hate here and start insulting one another so you can have your one sided insults – no doubt you think you are provoked and only being defensive and protecting yourself 😉

PS Is it your view that if a country was treated like this by another – lets use Spain and Portugal as I did earlier – they would not have armed resistance against said country? No resistance movement, no increase in extremism etc
Now that is a shit argument.

JY – I smiled and thought of you when I read this today:

I think it makes a fair point re bias tbh [ i missed the report which is most unlike me – sometimes i forget to switch the radio back on after i have switched it off for thought for the day.
We have to accept that Hamas is attacking Israel in reports – neither side is a pargon here. We also have to accept that Israel attacks are far more deadly than Hamas ones and it will always get more coverage because it is more deadly

I suppose i could have asked if Hamas had paused overnight as it may actually be technically true and then i could be the biased character neutral sanj suggests I am

Been trying to find a table I saw on twitter yesterday that showed major offensives against Gaza and how they coincided with the re-election of the government in Israel. Will try and find it today.

edit:

Mikeoconnor you need to raise your game. you find one quote from a has-been religeious extremist that was once in the knesset, and another from you’re ‘jewish friend’ a that’s how you make your case? Your bringing about as much to this debate as deadlydarcy. You both need to spend more time on your bike imho.

so, because we say things you don’t like, we shouldn’t be part of the discussion then? Why? Do you not like your views being challenged? And why do you put ‘Jewish friend’ in quotes? What are you suggesting?

The sentiments regarding ‘lebensraum’ aren’t exlusive to Effi Eitam. The term has been used by many commentators on the Palestinian situation, as well as other expansionist policies employed by other nations elsewhere. It’s simply a word, and fits this situation extremely well. I could quite easily just speak of expansionism and it would seem less contentious, and perhaps i am being provocative by using such an expression, but the fundamental philosophy remains the same. Israel is invading it’s neighbour and driving the inhabitants out. This is simply a fact.

Much is spoken of the angry and violent rhetoric used by Hamas; not enough is being said about the vitriol being spouted by certain figures in Israel.

Interior Minister Eli Yishai said Operation Pillar of Defense would continue and likely be expanded, a reference to the possibility that a ground offensive has already been given the go-ahead.
The war in Gaza “must be so painful and difficult that the terror groups will not think twice but a hundred times before they fire missiles against Israel again,” it was reported in The Israel National News.
“Destroy and damage infrastructure, public buildings and government buildings. We must make sure that Hamas will be spending many years rebuilding Gaza, and not attacking Israel,” he continued.
A few days ago he said, “The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years.”
His words were relatively mild compared to some of the comments that have been coming out of Israel in recent days.
Journalist, Gilad Sharon, the son of former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, in an editorial in the Jerusalem Post on Sunday called for Gaza to be flattened like the US flattened the Japanese city of Hiroshima in 1945 with an atomic bomb.
“We need to flatten all of Gaza. The American’s didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough – so they hit Nagasaki too. There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire,” ranted Sharon.
As the former Prime Minister’s son publicly urged the military to wipe Gaza off the map, a member of the Knesset and the National Unity Party, Michael Ben-Ari, called for Israeli soldiers to kill Gazans without thought or mercy.
“There are no innocents in Gaza, don’t let any diplomats who want to look good in the world endanger your lives – mow them down!” it was reported on the Hakol HaYehudi website.
He also told soldiers to ignore Goldstone; in reference to the UN commissioned Goldstone report on Israel’s 2008-2009 invasion of Gaza, which found evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Israel Katz, the country’s transport minister, has called “for Gaza to be bombed so hard the population has to flee into Egypt.” While Avi Dichter, the minster of home front defense, has urged the IDF to “reformat” Gaza – to wipe it clean with bombs.

so, it’s not just ‘has been religious extremeists’ who are spouting such bile, but some very powerful and dangerous figures.

http://rt.com/news/israel-gaza-hamas-war-103/

But of course; it’s Hamas who are the agressors, against a nation with massive military superiority and nuclear (as well as chemical and biological) weapons capability. Obviously.

The war in Gaza “must be so painful and difficult that the terror groups will not think twice but a hundred times before they fire missiles against Israel again,” it was reported in The Israel National News.
“Destroy and damage infrastructure, public buildings and government buildings. We must make sure that Hamas will be spending many years rebuilding Gaza, and not attacking Israel,” he continued.
A few days ago he said, “The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years.”

It is terrible to see the most persecuted race in history [ well probably] get a state and then become the most persecuting state in recent history[ probably]

It says something trully terrible about the human condition and this saddens me.

To be fair samj, you read just like I’d expect a Zionist to read. You have a certain point of view based on your view that Israel is merely defending itself, and you appear to discount (just two examples) land grabbing and disproportionate “retaliation” (inverted commas there because let’s face it, though of course you won’t, a lot of Israel’s actions aren’t retaliative at all) as beside the point, like somehow they don’t matter…and that Israel’s right to exist must be paramount and recognised by whoever is under their jackboot.

No matter what point of view is put to you, you come back to the same set of Zionistic principles. So I dunno fella…what’s the point in “debating” with you at all? You blindly support a nation which is in breach of god knows how many UN resolutions and acts as the neighbourhood bully by dint of its unstinting support by the US, who surprisingly don’t appear to pay much attention to the UN either.

I am perfectly aware of the differences between “Jewishness”, “Zionism” and “Israel”, but how a country that is supposedly a haven from persecution, then persecutes those who it doesn’t see as fitting in with its expansionist policies is beyond my understanding. The comparisons to Naziism and the Holocaust are of course hyperbolic – but that they’re used at all should make Israelis and Zionists both wake up a bit.

Sorry if my thorough distaste for you and your type is “not bringing much to the debate”, but there you go. Most of the world hates what Israel is doing. And for good reason. But of course, they’re all naive and uninformed aren’t they?

how a country that is supposedly a haven from persecution, then persecutes those who it doesn’t see as fitting in with its expansionist policies is beyond my understanding.

The abused go on to become the abuser – sadly pretty common.

You blindly support a nation which is in breach of god knows how many UN resolutions and acts as the neighbourhood bully by dint of its unstinting support by the US, who surprisingly don’t appear to pay much attention to the UN either.

Ah yes but the UN resolutions are all part of an anti-semitic conspiracy within the UN, apparently. Because as we know anyone who ever criticises anything to do with Israel is a rabid anti-semite.

The abused go on to become the abuser – sadly pretty common.

Aye, too true grummybear, but in this case, it really takes that statement to a new level.

Most of the world hates what Israel is doing. And for good reason. But of course, they’re all naive and uninformed aren’t they?

No, not uninformed. Misinformed, and Naive -Yes, because it’s easy to feel good with yourselves about sympathizing with the palestinian’s plight than to engage your mind and think beyond ‘the nasty aggressive Israel and the poor helpless Palestinians’

Because as we know anyone who ever criticises anything to do with Israel is a rabid anti-semite

not necessarily. but do you seriously think this problem would get as much attention if Gaza was full of Sunni Arabs, and Israel full of Shias?
Do you even have an opinion on the situation in Syria? where are all the emotive forum arguments on that?! Daily summary executions, certain army attacks on civilians and a death toll of what? 15,000+ .. Arabs killing Arabs. very sad, but jews killing arabs.. an outrage! always a headline… its the ‘persecuted doing the persecuting’…its ‘nazism’! Yes all very proportional.

so, it’s not just ‘has been religious extremists’ who are spouting such bile, but some very powerful and dangerous figures.

Yes, you are right. but they are still the minority. However hawkish some of those comments, the government was not elected on a platform to flatten Gaza, and the overwhelming majority of israelis dont want that. Hamas on the other hand has the destruction of Israel and the reclamation of all land from Jordan to the Mediterranean as its founding principle.

JY – fair play to your debating point above. you have your opinion, and it certainly seems to have more support than mine here at any rate! I agree that no side is a paragon, but i don’t agree in your historical analysis, and i do think the vast majority of the blame for the current situation lies with the PA / Arab leagues mismanagement of the situation.

This guy sums it up quite well from my pov.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1N1zhUm84w

but of course, you all knew what ‘my type’ had to say about that already…
🙂

not necessarily. but do you seriously think this problem would get as much attention if Gaza was full of Sunni Arabs, and Israel full of Shias?
Do you even have an opinion on the situation in Syria? where are all the emotive forum arguments on that?! Daily summary executions, certain army attacks on civilians and a death toll of what? 15,000+ .. Arabs killing Arabs. very sad, but jews killing arabs.. an outrage! always a headline… its the ‘persecuted doing the persecuting’…its ‘nazism’! Yes all very proportional.

Yes I think what is happening in Syria is awful, but it had plenty of media attention in the early stages, sadly it seems the news organisations got bored. Anything seen as ‘internal’ or civil war seems to get less attention. There has been plenty of discussion of it on here btw.

The other main difference is that Syria isn’t a close ally of the west that receives millions and millions of dollars in military aid (AFAIK?), and Syria isn’t constantly and loudly claiming to be an enlightened, modern democratic state that values the principles of human rights.

Has Syria ever invaded and occupied foreign territory? Do they have a ‘secret’ nuclear bomb, while vociferously arguing against anyone else in the region being allowed them, while also going around murdering foreign scientists? Does Syria shamelessly invoke a past atrocity to justify their current illegal and immoral behaviour, and accuse anyone that criticises them of being racists? Does Syria have extremely powerful and well funded lobbyists exerting their influence on western governments?

You might find some of those are reasons why Israel gets more attention than Syria.

Thanks for your posts on this samj. Nice to read a different point of view rather than the usual attention seekers. Good work fella.

🙄

Misinformed, and Naive -Yes, because it’s easy to feel good with yourselves about sympathizing with the palestinian’s plight than to engage your mind and think beyond ‘the nasty aggressive Israel and the poor helpless Palestinians’

Normally, I’d say this was staggering in its presumptuousness, but I’m not surprised at all.

And as for bloodynora’s post, wot richc said.

Thank you bloodynora.

grum: exactly. Israel has a ‘secret’ nuclear bomb. On the other hand (the making of) Iran’s bomb is not so secret as they have already publicly threatened several times to ‘wipe israel of the face of the map’ with it!
Are you surprised they argue vociferously against it? Is that your moral equality? The fact the equivalent of the entire jewish population of israel had been wiped out just 3 generations ago is, i think , a justified reason to be concerned, and not some ‘shameless’ excuse to act in a certain way.

and about those well funded lobbyists.. you think the 1.5 billion Arabs that are sitting on most of the world’s oil supplies pushing the Arab league agenda don’t have any power?

Or is it possible that some people in western administrations have come to similar conclusions without being bought out?