Another war in Palestine

Is reading the definition before commenting too much to ask?

Since you dont seem to have then I am not sure you can really criticise others for doing so.
You are confusing the definition with the examples. The latter of which are controversial when used as part of the definition. From memory even the person who wrote them isnt in favour of them being used as such.

SuperScale20
South Africa was super bad but how the Palestinians are being treated and slaughtered is on another level all on live TV.

THAT was my point.

And really interesting about the National Holocaust Centre…

Quick google, the LP politician was Angela Rayner.

You just need to not compare them to the Nazis. Is that so hard? Can you really not image other ways to criticise them?

I’ve read this entire thread and been following the news on the horrendous acts that both sides have and continue to commit. I feel I now need to post. The above is, quite frankly, horse shit. It is a completely valid comparison. The Israeli government are acting in a way that can very much be compared to the actions of the Nazi’s. That isn’t antisemitism it’s clear for all to see. You’re pretty much a lone voice on this for a reason.

It is an attempt to shut down any valid criticism of what the Israeli government is doing. That’s abhorrent and to hide behind the past and cry foul is despicable to say the least. The wholesale bombing of innocent men, women and children, cutting off power and resources to hospitals. What would you describe that as? Comparing directly to those that committed atrocities against them should make them stop, think and be utterly ashamed of what they are perpetrating. Definitions be damned

When they are behaving like nazis…………….

No, they’re really not.

Not at all- but I never claimed that.  Classic copying of Israeli government propaganda to shut down debate and criticism.

That was Alpin’s comment that got several votes and no criticism (other than mine).

The last dozen or so posts contains wildly antisemitic statements. Absolutely outrageous to invoke Nazism and concentration camps when criticising the recent actions. If the above is allowed to stand this place has lost the plot.

Part of what has outraged Israelis so much is that the systematic house by house extermination of families and communities is, for them, a clear parallel with the atrocities in Europe. They truly believe they are fighting for their survival. Lots of people are going to die and it’s a tragedy.

There is not a moral equivalence between Hamas’ need to exterminate Israel and the Jews and the tragedy  of what’s happening now 

What is Israel’s end game with respect to Gaza?

Not sure, but their plans for the West Bank, which Hamas claim is the reason they launched their attack, appear to be on track.

The eventual annexation of the West Bank and the expulsions of 3 million Palestinians:

“Israeli Settlers Aren’t Pausing the Expulsion and Dispossession in the West Bank.

Israeli security forces neglected the defense of communities near the Gaza Strip because they have been preoccupied with defending the settlers in the West Bank, their land seizures, and their rites of stone and altar worshiping.”

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-12/ty-article/.premium/israeli-settlers-arent-pausing-the-expulsion-and-dispossession-in-the-west-bank/0000018b-205f-d680-af9b-22df9b140000

EDIT. Not helping.

They truly believe they are fighting for their survival.

By trapping a couple of million people in a small area so that they can be indiscriminately bombed? By cutting off power, supply lines and water for the same innocent people? What Hamas did is horrendous and barbaric and is rightly condemned by all. To not do the same for what the Israeali government and military are now doing to the innocents trapped in Gaza is inexcusable. To call out the parallels isn’t antisemitism. It’s just morally right.

Tomd – you’ve literally just compared the the Israeli experience last Saturday to that experienced during WW2.

The last dozen or so posts contains wildly antisemitic statements. Absolutely outrageous to invoke Nazism and concentration camps when criticising the recent actions. If the above is allowed to stand this place has lost the plot.

The comparison that kicked all this off was between the Warsaw ghettos and Gaza.  No one other than people outraged by this comparison have mentioned concentration camps.

@colournoise that was well covered by the Economist article I posted.

edit: I think you removed that comment so this may not make sense now. But I’ll leave it here anyway.

https://web.archive.org/web20230727094205/https://www.economist.com/bagehots-notebook/2016/04/28/guest-post-why-comparing-israel-to-the-nazis-is-always-anti-semitic

“There are three main reasons why introducing Hitler into debates about Israel should be considered anti-Semitic. First, and most obviously, even in the worst possible interpretation of what Israel has done to the Palestinians, it does not remotely resemble what the Nazis did to the Jews. The scale and purpose are incomparably different, in ways so glaring that they ought not to need spelling out. Israel’s abuses against the Palestinians occur within a territorial and political conflict, albeit one in which, unquestionably, great and indefensible wrongs have been done; the Holocaust was an attempt at ethnic annihilation in which 6m people were murdered. I once heard a well-educated man who should have known better lament the fact that, after what happened to them during the second world war, the Jews have gone on more or less to do the same thing to the Palestinians, “only without all the killing.” The industrialised killing, however, was not an incidental part of it. To pretend an equivalence grotesquely exaggerates Israel’s guilt and renders the crimes of Nazism routine.”

Part of what has outraged Israelis so much is that the systematic house by house extermination of families and communities is

I am not sure why you focus on Israeli outrage. Do you think that non-Israelis were not also outraged?

I reckon it is safe to say that the world was outraged.

I think it is also safe to say that the world has been outraged by Israeli bombing, shelling, and missile strikes, on house after house and extermining, as you call it, entire families.

Are you not outraged by Israeli forces committing war crimes such as hitting civilian targets and “collective punishment” (a nazi tactic in occupied territories)?

If not why not?

Just out of interest, is anyone prepared to argue against the conclusion that we are about to see the ethnic cleansing of Northern Gaza?

I really don’t see any Palestinians being allowed to live there again if Israel does successfully take it.

If not why not?

Because the cloak of perma-victim shields them from any self reflection on their behaviour?

I’m all for turning Hamas fighters heads into fruit bowls, but I draw the line at civilians copping the fallout from their regimes behaviour.

The reason Israel continues their chosen COA is they have tacit, and in some cases explicit approval from other nations.

The hypocrisy is that same courtesy would not be extended to other nations though. Anyone mounting a stand of defence for either side is morally bankrupt. They are both acting in an inexcusable manner, but only one is being held accountable.

Israel as a nation is ticking off the ‘how to do a war crimes’ list like a boss and everyone seems okay with it.

What is Israel’s end game with respect to Gaza?

Probably one of two options. 1. they’re going to compact the 2+m residents into a much smaller area, forcing as many as they can to leave due to it being so overcrowded they have no option, or 2. are going to continue to push the population south, then south again and get them over the border into Egypt.

Then fully absorb the Gaza strip into Israel. I believe it is Israel’s goal to completely eradicate the Palestinian population by forcing them out. and as above then call the entire country Israel. Palestine will cease to exist.

.

As to the hostages, I truly don’t think Israel gives a damn if they live or die.

“There are three main reasons why introducing Hitler into debates about Israel should be considered anti-Semitic.

No one has introduced Hitler into the debate, apart from you now.

There are parallels between the tactics that the Nazis used in the occupied territories and the tactics of the Israelis have used in the occupied territories.

Such as collective punishment, forcing an ethnic minority into a ghetto, moving their own civilians into occupied territories, and subjecting the conquered civilians to military law and court marshalls.

Not only that. The innocent people of Palestine are being held accountable for the actions whilst the Israeli government s being more or less given permission by some of the most powerful nations on Earth to do as they please. There are no winners here, just innocent victims and people who can’t learn from their own history on both sides. Two sets of **** nutters with a host of innocents trapped between them.

The comparison that kicked all this off was between the Warsaw ghettos and Gaza.

To be specific, it was the comparison of the Hamas’ attack on civilians with the Warsaw Ghetto uprising against SS soldiers taking Jews to extermination.

alpin’s post is long but I don’t think I misread it

Are you not outraged by Israeli forces committing war crimes such as hitting civilian targets and “collective punishment” (a nazi tactic in occupied territories)?

it’s an absolute horror show and restraint is needed. But I’m under no ilusion that Israel faces an existential threat having had various other countries and regimes try and wipe them off the face of the earth several times. it’s beyond tragic the whole situation but I can’t join in the antisemitic group session that’s kicked off in here, it’s a disgrace. Feels like a Corbyn era labour branch meeting.

Tomd – you claim a load of antisemitic posts.  Please show them and explain why.  There has not been a single one as I can see unless you equate any critism of Isreal as antisemitic

Because the cloak of perma-victim shields them from any self reflection on their behaviour?

Who is “them”? Who are you talking about here?

Just heard from a local British – Israeli local builder my MIL has. He was conscripted into the IDF at 18 and was required to be involved in various ground operations during his service.

He was absolutely seething earlier this morning with Netanyahu in the conversation, completely seething. He said the entire situation leading up to and being undertaken now is Netanyahu’s complete and utter failure to descalate over 15 years.

His son, still in Israel has just been called up to IDF reservists. The dad we know said that should anything happen in Gaza to his son he will hold Netanyuhu entirely culpable.

Its just one voice and perspective but its important to hear a range of Israeli views on this.

@politecameraaction

Both parties.

But in relation to military action, Israel have stepped beyond the line of what I would expect of an organised, disciplined fighting force.

I appreciate the bulk of the responsibility of this falls to their elected leaders and generals.

As to the hostages, I truly don’t think Israel gives a damn if they live or die.

Exceptionally poor take. Israel works on a “no man left behind” principle, my friend has been on the front line attempting to rescue them. Dealing with booby-trapped houses whilst under live fire, eventually getting into them only to witness the unfathomable atrocities committed inside those houses is not the action of a state that doesn’t care about hostages. And my friend is not going to come out of this the same person, if he comes out at all.

Its just one voice and perspective but its important to hear a range of Israeli views on this.

It is the overriding view of the Israelis I spoke to, both called up and those still at home. The feeling is that Netanyahu should be finished after this.

@TheFlyingOx I have a family member who was one those “no man left behind”, rescued at great risk.

It is the overriding view of the Israelis I spoke to, both called up and those still at home. The feeling is that Netanyahu should be finished after this.

This is the feeling in my family too. They’re terrified and appalled.

TJ you want me to explain to you why repeated and casual references to Nazism in this context are antisemitic? You’re having a laugh right? Nazism is such a loaded term that involves the systematic manufacturing of grievances against the Jews right through to the attempt at industrialised eradication. There are some attempts above to salami slice out particular elements and apply those to this situation but that’s a ridiculous thing to do with a term that’s so loaded in this context.

Casual antisemitism might be normal for you in your circle but I know it when I see it.

Are you not outraged by Israeli forces committing war crimes such as hitting civilian targets and “collective punishment” (a nazi tactic in occupied territories)?

it’s an absolute horror show and restraint is needed. But I’m under no ilusion that Israel faces an existential threat having …..

So basically you are justifying it.

People who are accused of supporting/carrying out atrocities usually try to justify it.

The idea that one of the most powerful nations on earth is facing an “existential threat” from the mostly unarmed people of Gaza, whose water, electricity, food, and all other supplies, Israel totally controls, is obviously total nonsense.

Israel is not committing war crimes in Gaza because it needs to for its very survival. It is doing so because it wants to.

Anyone suitably outraged by what they’ve read here reported anything to the mods? That would seem the fairest way in the context of STW to determine what is or isn’t OK?

I’m sure Mark and the crew would not tolerate STW appearing to condone anti-semitism on the forum.

It’s outrageous tbh but I’m not surprised it’s fashionable and normal in certain groups, particularly up here.

Casual antisemitism might be normal for you in your circle but I know it when I see it.

to question the actions of the Israeli government is not antisemitism, casual or otherwise. They attempt to hide behind it to excuse their actions.

It’s outrageous tbh but I’m not surprised it’s fashionable and normal in certain groups, particularly up here.

What on Earth are you going on about? Where’s up here? Go ahead and quote a single post that is antisemtic.

thoguhtful and articulate guy – also laying the blame at Netanyahu’s feet for a) dividing Israel, b) spending 14 years escalating the situation

to question the actions of the Israeli government is not antisemitism, casual or otherwise. They attempt to hide behind it to excuse their actions.

Agreed,  although if you’re trying to do it do you think it would be possible to find an analogy from 10,000+ years of human history that wasn’t that one?

Given Russia has just levelled several cities in Ukraine, would that not seem like a better analogy? Or Syria over the past few years? Why go for that one?

Casual antisemitism might be normal for you in your circle but I know it when I see it.

Like it or not, the Israeli governments actions towards the Palestinians do have parallels with various acts of ethnic cleansing and genocide.  Pointing out parallels is how we avoid the same situations arising again and again.

Alpin’s post might not have been appropriate for various reasons.  Pointing out those reasons and why you don’t think the parallel is valid is absolutely fine.  Shutting down the debate by saying, ‘Antisemitic!’ just makes it sound like you don’t want the actions of the Israeli government questioned. Which, given the fact they are currently murdering civilians by the hundreds and seem to be about the ethnically cleanse Gaza isn’t really OK.

Someone saying, ‘Israelis are Nazis’ would be quite rightly called antisemitic.  There’s no attempt to draw a parallel, it’s just abuse.

a couple of the most egregious ones but tbh I think it’s normal sadly. 

@benos – I’m sorry to read that a family member of yours was taken as part of the hostage crisis. Wishing them the best recovery from what I can’t begin to imagine.

Given Russia has just levelled several cities in Ukraine, would that not seem like a better analogy? Or Syria over the past few years? Why go for that one?

because you would like to think that one, from all of them, would make those in power feel ashamed of their actions. There are parallels whether you like it or not. Outlining the fact is valid. To claim otherwise and call foul is rather pathetic. This isn’t about Jewish people, it’s about the Israeli government and military. They aren’t the same thing.

Weird.

Mods. Have I had a post deleted? Or did I just not manage to click ‘submit’?

(was nothing inflammatory at all – just asking tomd whether he’d reported any posts)

Thank you @bennyboy1, but it was actually many years ago now. I should’ve made that clear given the current situation.

I was just echoing TheFlyingOx’s comment about the “no man left behind” principle.