Another war in Palestine

As above , I can’t really see how that comment is anti-semetic……………

Yup, not sure how drawing parallels between oppressed Jews and oppressed Palestinians and how those groups might feel about their oppressors is anti-Semitic.

Arguably misguided in the current context, but I see no prejudice in it.

(unless I’ve misinterpreted Alpin’s comment)

The latest Reel Rock films include a film on climbing in Palestine. Obviously produced before recent events, but it was, for me, fascinating for various reasons.
https://youtu.be/VbQ3mOzrxl8?si=ZOcXXYUvQMJmxFWg

The definition of Anti-Semitism includes that to make a comparison of the actions of Israel / IDF to the actions undertaken by the Nazis is deemed to be Anti-Semitic.

Follow the link, as I said. It’s in the UK definition of anti-semitism.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism

“Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.”

But of all the ways to do it, to draw a comparison of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising days after Hamas’ slaughter. It’s unconscionable.

Not necessarily where I expected a voice of reason to come from

@colournoise – if you’ve not seen it then Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland is well worth a viewing

I was quite surprised when Patrick Kielty popped up and I had no idea about his family history or what he himself did. It changed my opinion of him completely. Balls like watermelons that lad, for putting his money where his mouth is and does indeed talk a lot of sense, being eminently qualified to do so.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0ff7cg0/once-upon-a-time-in-northern-ireland

The mods need to take action, and the rest of you need to get a grip.

I liked Aplin’s post he made a very valid point. One of the reasons that so many Jews are opposed to Israeli government treatment of the Palestinians is precisely because they see parallels with Nazis treatment of Jews.

The late Gerald Kaufman is a high profile example of a Jew who went from staunch supporter of Israel to outspoken critic precisely because he believed that the lessons of the Holocaust should never be forgotten.

And as for the link you posted, I don’t need to lectured by a Tory politician about what constitutes racism.

Especially a Tory politician who is Chairman of Conservative Friends of Israel. And who has himself been found guilty of racism against gypsies.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eric-pickles-illegally-discriminating-against-gypsies-and-travellers-the-high-court-rules-9993154.html

Gypsies were of course persecuted by the Nazis, so another parallel there.

I think it speaks volumes that you want the mods to intervene. Israeli supporters like yourself want any criticism of Israel silenced. And to be fair you have been very successful.

But it would be OK (legal) to draw parallels between the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians and the actions of any other right-wing government towards an oppressed minority?

I get the basis for the technicalities of the definition in that case, but given that the Israeli government <> ‘the Jewish people’ I do also get why people might make the comparison.

When people come on here and start wanting to call the shots about who’s allowed to say what and banning etc always reflects a basic weakness in their argument. Who was that Labour politician who said ‘it’s true but you can’t say it’ ?

I do wonder whether the Tories and Labour leadership want to pledge their full support for state terrorism but are more than a little anxiouis about an international  refugee crisis. A couple of million Palestinians needing a refuge would fill them with horror.

@colournoise – if you’ve not seen it then Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland is well worth a viewing

Saw the first couple but then it drifted out of my consciousness. Didn’t see Keilty pop up but was vaguely aware of his personal experience.

Probably ought to go back and watch the rest…

Not exactly very brave of Varadkar to make moderate comments against Israel in a country that is wildly pro-Palestinian (for obvious historical reasons).

I think an issue that is overlooked in the discussion of the military action (ground invasion now?) of Gaza is that of the hostages. It is inconceivable that Israel would allow the hostages to remain in Gaza, especially given the barbarity that has been visited upon them already.

Meanwhile, it might speak to my mealy-mouthed despicable centrism, but the last couple of episodes of The Rest Is Politics podcast have been interesting on this topic. Stewart’s summary if the history may be useful to those looking for a reasonably balanced introduction (although personally I think he would have done better to mention the Jews have been continuously present in Palestine for 2000+ years, albeit in different numbers). And the Yuval Hariri interview was striking for its observation that Palestinians and Israelis alike are in a state of such shock and despair that they are incapable of conceptualising the pain of others.

Hamas seems to be succeeding in one of its goals…

“Until Iran-backed Hamas sparked a war on Oct. 7 by launching a devastating attack on Israel, both Israeli and Saudi leaders had been saying they were moving steadily towards a deal that could have reshaped the Middle East”

Interesting piece in Vanity Fair suggests that, far from harming Saudi, MBS will be ecstatic at this turn of events. He has laundered his Khashoggi reputation by talking about recognition with Israel – and now he doesn’t even have to bother doing it. Back of the (sportswashed) net!
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/10/saudi-israeli-deal-likely-off-mbs

Who was that Labour politician who said ‘it’s true but you can’t say it’ ?

Sounds like mid-career Ken Livingstone…

And as for the link you posted, I don’t need to lectured by a Tory politician about what constitutes racism.

The definition quoted comes from elsewhere than the Tory party being the EU approved definition formed with input from the IHRA. I am not aware if it is anything other than policy in the UK – is it enshrined in law / tested in prosecutions?

The definition also states, before listing examples “could, taking into account the overall context, include” so one could argue the wider context here allows the criticism – so even the IHRA don’t state they are blanket 100% definitions of anti-semitisn.
A lot of people don’t agree with the definition as they feel it is misused to protect Israel from criticism and there are alternative definitions such as
https://jerusalemdeclaration.org

On a more positive note my cousin who lives in Israel has been contacted by the British embassy so hopefully she, and her two young children, will be able to get out sooner than expected.

You’re arguing with the internationally accepted definition of anti-semitism. But since you need help:

https://web.archive.org/web20230727094205/https://www.economist.com/bagehots-notebook/2016/04/28/guest-post-why-comparing-israel-to-the-nazis-is-always-anti-semitic

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/allegation-israels-actions-against-palestinians-can-be-compared-nazis

Defining Antisemitism

But since you need help

It’s not me that needs help, you chose the link yourself.

I opened the link, saw a photo of a grinning Eric Pickles, and immediately closed it.

Choose your links more carefully. As I said, I don’t need a Tory politician to tell me what racism is. Especially one found guilty of illegal discrimination against gypsies.

You’re arguing with the internationally accepted definition of anti-semitism.

By some, but nevertheless a fair point. However as I said previously, Israel and its supporters have been massively successful in deflecting and suppressing criticism of Israel.

It really is time to fight back. If Israel behaves like a far-right racist government then it should be called out.

it’s on the government website. Here’s another.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/uk-governments-adoption-of-the-ihra-definition-of-antisemitism/

That definition of anti semitism is deliberately drawn so that israeli politicians can call any critism of isreal as anti semitic.   A deliberate attempt to avoid scrutiny.

Any criticism of isreal is automatically labelled anti semitic even if isreal is in breach of international law and un resolutions.

it’s on the government website. Here’s another.

Yes a Tory government website.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Tories should be the judges of what is racist?

What is the Home Secretary’s, Suella Braverman, veiws on racism/anti-semitism? Since apparently they matter.

@benos – I’m not going to be told what I’m allowed to think about the actions of a government on the pretext that if I think that way someone has defined me as an anti-semite.

The IHRA antisemitism definitions are designed to stifle legitimate criticism of a government and I will have no truck with them.

If the government of Israel does stuff that prompts people to make parallel associations with horrendous nazi actions then that’s on Israel.   Coming up with a “rule” that says “you can’t draw that parallel because that makes you antisemitic” is a crock that’s designed to deflect blame from a disgusting state.

If the government of Israel doesn’t want it’s actions compared to the actions of the nazis, then it needs to stop acting like the nazis – and free the two million people it’s locked in a concentration camp.

That’s not antisemitic.  That criticism would apply to any government that acts that way.

Having re-read it, I now understand what you mean. Although I read it as a analogy for uprising in general, rather than considering who was referenced. In the context of the rest of that post I think it was an ill chosen analogy rather than deliberate. I could be wrong of course, which makes it very different.

As for the getting a grip. Insults really help those that are trying to educate themselves.

Will just stay ignorant in future then.

alpin +1

No @tjagain, it’s antisemitic when you compare them to the Nazis. Is reading the definition before commenting too much to ask?

it’s antisemitic when you compare them to the Nazis

Nah it’s really not. But if you want to call it that, go for it.

Having spent a great amount of my time involved in military action the shit they’re doing is immoral and illegal and if me and my colleagues had done similar the comparisons would also be made.

I have read the definition.

Its clearly contrived to make it easy for Israeli politicians to divert criticism as antisemitic indeed its their standard tactic.  Open your eyes man!

Israels treatment of the palestinians is criminal.   Stating that does not make you an antisemite no matter how much the Israeli politicians want to claim that it does

To draw the parallels between the warsaw ghetto and the gazan ghetto does not make you antisemetic.

When you point out the Isrealis are acting like nazis does not make you antisemetic if it is true

Isreali is not a synonym for jewish

There’s probably a thousand different comparisons you could make while legitimately criticising Israel. Throwing the holocaust at them, the industrialised murder of 6 million Jews, really isn’t one of them. 

Just heard an interview with an Israeli nutter saying that the solution for Gaza civilians is a tent city in the Sinai desert. Really, when you get to this level of depravity all hope is lost.

No @tjagain, it’s antisemitic when you compare them to the Nazis. 

As pointed out the definition  states, before listing examples, “could, taking into account the overall context, include” so one could argue the wider context of Israeli military action against civilians here allows the criticism – so even the IHRA don’t state they are blanket 100% definitions of anti-semitisn. Is reading the definition before commenting too much to ask?

Its clearly contrived to make it easy for Israeli politicians to divert criticism as antisemitic indeed its their standard tactic.  Open your eyes man!

You just need to not compare them to the Nazis. Is that so hard? Can you really not image other ways to criticise them?

Are you quite sure it’s ok to compare Hamas’ slaughter of Jews on Saturday to the Warsaw Ghetto Jews trying to avoid the gas chambers?

there are quite a few parallels with the ANC’s attitude and actions in South Africa during the 1960s and 70s. The fact that Israel chooses not to notice this is baffling to me. If it does notice it and yet continues along its path then more fool then.

All fixed… And SUCH a better reflection on the current Israeli government…

(Interestingly, searching up ANC action under Apartheid also returned quite a few hits directly about the current Gaza situation)

@colournoise Thank you. So easy! Simply anything but those who tried to exterminate them. 

Possibly you missed my point…

Posted without comment.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67108364?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=652a703d8ae7803bb68432ef%26Children%20among%20dead%20after%20Palestinian%20convoy%20hit%20while%20fleeing%20northern%20Gaza%262023-10-14T11%3A02%3A19.393Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:1d4fb74f-960b-4625-b118-c6518e438173&pinned_post_asset_id=652a703d8ae7803bb68432ef&pinned_post_type=share

There’s probably a thousand different comparisons you could make while legitimately criticising Israel.

You know a thousand different examples of an occupying army forcing an ethnic group to live in a ghetto?

Can you name 3 or 4?

I was just reading this after viewing this thread –  Benos your one angry person wow.

Possibly you missed my point…

No, you missed mine. Your comparison isn’t antisemitic and has merit too. 

Posted without comment.

Seems to me there is no PID of targets going on.

Are there even targeting parameters that attempt to differentiate between legitimate targets and civilians?

I know Hamas gave no **** in this regard, but as an organised, disciplined military force you don’t get to play by the same rules.

You just need to not compare them to the Nazis. Is that so hard? Can you really not image other ways to criticise them?

When they are behaving like nazis…………….  ‘anyway its not the only thing in that definition that they claim is antisemitism and there is no doubt at all the isreali government are fascists

Are you quite sure it’s ok to compare Hamas’ slaughter of Jews on Saturday to the Warsaw Ghetto Jews trying to avoid the gas chambers?

Not at all- but I never claimed that.  Classic copying of Israeli government propaganda to shut down debate and criticism.

Yes parallels with apartheid South africa are also legitimate.

What is Israel’s end game with respect to Gaza?

They are clearly planning to force the Palestinian population into an even smaller area but then what happens to the North?  Is it simply absorbed into Israel (once the ruble has been cleared away)?  Surely they won’t say, ‘OK, Hamas is all dead. You can all come back now.’

What happens if Israel is successful in clearing the North of Palestinians?  Does the entire Gaza population now have to make do with an even smaller prison than they had before?  It hardly seems possible.

Or is the plan to create a humanitarian emergency on such a scale that the international community is forced to open the Egyptian border and then deal with the refugees however they see fit?  Then Israel closes the border and Gaza simply becomes part of Israel (once the rubble is cleared).

I’m genuinely struggling to see what Israel are trying to accomplish other than either partial or complete ethnic cleansing of Gaza.

I’m taking a group of local young people to the National Holocaust Centre next month in response to this past week. I want to provide them with skills and knowledge to assist their debating the current issue.

As part of the young people’s learning the Holocaust Centre facilitators will help lead a discussion on conditions for genocide and use several examples. This will include examples of the Nazis and compare those to others including Cambodia, Rwanda, and Israel – Palestine.

On that basis, contextually I’m presuming that there can be discussions assessing the historical and current similarities / differences. Otherwise by the literal definition that’d mean the amazing work of the UK Holocaust Centre would be anti-semitic which would clearly be a ludicrous accusation.

South Africa was super bad but how the Palestinians are being treated and slaughtered is on another level all on live TV.