All those wingeing about public sector workers and pensions

bainbrge – Member
Thanks for the advice CaptJon, but I didn’t have to do a proper analysis, someone else did it for me! Plagiarism is a terrible thing, however all the numbers are from the ONS.

I tried to amend to remove the political BS for you though:

Nice try…

On a serious note, public sector spending increased by more than 50% over the term of the last labour government (£451bn to £688bn at constant 2010-11 prices).

Last term or all three terms of the last Labour govt? And you left out the important caveat that the figures include the stimulus package Darling and Brown instigated to soften the impact of the recession.

In 1999 the government spent £343bn, which would have been £440bn by 2009/10 had it only increased by inflation. Instead it had reached £670bn.

What happened to the £451bn figure? A fuller picture could be had if you included the change in govt receipts and the change in GDP.

The extra spending arguably did nothing to improve the provision or efficiency of public services in general, in fact ONS evidence suggests the opposite.

Not all of it was spent on public services, though, was it?

The extra spending simply expanded the public sector at the expense of everyone else, and was funded through labours profligate borrowing and stealth taxes.

Simply? Come on, you can do better than that.

The spending was done for the sole purpose of buying voters by increasing the size of the labour voting public sector. And because the labour government thought that everyone had entitlements but no obligations.

So was it simply to expand the public sector, or to by votes? Or to spend money on entitlements?

What you want to mention is the changes in receipts and spending in the first term, when the budget was in surplus as Brown kept to Clarke’s spending plans. But then that could be countered by Osborne and Cameron saying they’d would stick to Darling’s. And the fact Osborne praised the model of economic growth Ireland followed… well, until it all went bang. Someone would then probably mention selling gold, TJ or Ernie would counter with not knowing what future prices would do. Someone might then point out all the extra money the 3G licences brought in. And depending on the balance of posters, Brown’s leadership at the height of the credit crunch would be cited – either as a good thing, or as a bad thing.

but then that can be countered

Plagiarism is a terrible thing, however all the numbers are from the ONS.

And your plagiarised article conveniently omitted to mention the absolutely critical and vital fact that the UK was exposed to the worse global recession since the 1930s ?

“In 1999 the government spent £343bn, which would have been £440bn by 2009/10 had it only increased by inflation. Instead it had reached £670bn.”

The difference in 2009/10 was that the UK was desperate to dig itself out of recession – hadn’t you noticed that ?

The private sector was in deep recession so the government pumped money into the public sector, had they not done so, the economy would have been well and truly fecked – for all of us. How do you think unemployment only managed to climb to 2.5 million ?

We signed up to x and have now had it changed to y

Get used to it like everyone else.

You’re not ring-fenced from the crap that your employers created.

STFU

And we are both doing jobs that not one of you private sector people could do

And you have the proof to back this up?

Get used to it like everyone else

Or try to do something about it, it’s better than being ring fenced.

You’re not ring-fenced from the crap that your employers created.

I know some banks are under public ownership, but the banks don’t own the public sector… although having said that…

It’s fundamentally difficult to measure productivity in the public sector

Not really, you can use exactly the same measure as the private sector should be using, how much time are you carrying out value added work vs non-value added work. In NHS terms doing something directly to imropove patient health be that laboratory work, operations, health screening or talking therapies to name a few activities, non value added activities are thing such as moving around, most paperwork, sitting on your backside doing nothing, being off sick a lot. Exactly the same as the private sector.

True efficency is not about cost cutting, it is about cost reduction so that the resources you employ add more value and generete less waste (as in muda not bin bags full of).

Perhaps one of the hard done to strikers can look after my son whilst school is shut yet again

CaptJon I apologise I won’t have time to answer your specific challenges, except to the extent covered in answering Ernie’s challenge below. However there is a useful paper (i.e. one i plagiarised) on this matter at:

http://www.tullettprebon.com/Documents/strategyinsights/Tim_Morgan_Report_007.pdf

I think chapter 4 covers this area and is well worth a skim read (I think so anyway).

Ernie – I think you are conflating a number of different things there, especially in your last paragraph:

1. Are you trying to imply that the public spending increase I highlighted was as a result of the financial crisis, and didn’t occur steadily over the labour government?

2. when you say the government pumped money into the public sector, are you talking about the bail out of the banks or something else? I can’t think of any Keynesian attempt to stimulate the economy with public spending in 2010 at all? Quantitative easing wouldn’t feature in the spending numbers I quoted (it doesn’t increase debt)

3. the (main) reason unemployment didn’t rise was because the private sector sucked down part time working and half weeks to avoid redundancies.

Tazzy – you really do seem rather angry these days – and you claimto be well rounded on another thread. resorting to insults? shows the poverty of your argument

edited out the rest of it

Not really, you can use exactly the same measure as the private sector should be using, how much time are you carrying out value added work vs non-value added work.

But, the public sector has historically not measured these things. From memory of working at a PCT in the early 2000’s, they were only just implementing a methodoloy whereby they calculated the unit cost of hospital treatments.

As TJ implied, a lot of the outputs of the public sector are inherently difficult to attach a number to.

Or try to do something about it

Yeah like strike and screw the country even more, great idea. Well done, they should make you a moderator you’re so clever.

Tazzy – you really do seem rather angry these days – and you claimto be well rounded on another thread. resorting to insults? shows the poverty of your argument
edited out the rest of it

So that’ll be no proof then

£35 per hour!

M6ttf

Do you know any private sector skilled experienced dementia care specialist nurses on this forum? or legal qualified welfare counsellors with up to date knowledge of the benefits system?

not some cosseted little fluffy bunny world of easy rides like you tossbags have had

STFU

Well done, they should make you a moderator you’re so clever.

Some of these public sector bashers obviously attended Swiss finishing school…..right little charmers.

Possibly a yes to the 2nd one TJ 🙂

You’re definitely underpaid for that level of expertise. I earn more than that and don’t even have a degree, no pension though 😉

Yeah like strike and screw the country even more, great idea. Well done, they should make you a moderator you’re so clever.

Ah good come back. So looks like you begrudge people fighting for something, you must let your employer walk all over you.

bainbrge – Member
CaptJon I apologise I won’t have time to answer your specific challenges, except to the extent covered in answering Ernie’s challenge below. However there is a useful paper (i.e. one i plagiarised) on this matter at:

http://www.tullettprebon.com/Documents/strategyinsights/Tim_Morgan_Report_007.pdf

I think chapter 4 covers this area and is well worth a skim read (I think so anyway).

Thanks for the link. I started reading chapter 4, but i started feeling nauseous. For someone who insists on using a Dr prefix, he doesn’t right very academically, nor does he back up many of his assertions (that i could make out from a brief look): far too many uses words like ‘bungled’ for my taste.

Here’s a nice picture:

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4038/4571396810_7b0bd091c9_b.jpg

Why is this so bickery? If you’re in the private sector and public sector want to strike, then fine deal with it! I just don’t get it?

Are we jealous?

Maybe People are just too selfish, we value our own convinience over others welfare?

( can I exclude tube drivers who are a set of profiteering wazzock pants! )

Maybe People are just too selfish, we value our own convinience over others welfare?

Bingo. 😀

just had a rite arguement with my missus ( well i say missus, she just asked me to leave !!) about this.

i agree with poster on this one.

i agree with poster on this one.

Which one? I will not rest until I know which one!! Damn you!

And which one did your missus agree with ?

And which one did your missus agree with ?

I hope it was me, is she fit?

she is a nurse !! and her family work for the council

and i PAY the mortgage, so im staying

i PAY the mortgage, so im staying

I admire your confidence 😉

For someone who insists on using a Dr prefix, he doesn’t right very academically

Thankyou, that made me smile 🙂

STFU

😆

Thats a cheap shot. or is it cheep. 😉

or legal qualified welfare counsellors with up to date knowledge of the benefits system?

So, if we simplify the benefits system, she could be out of a job, yes?

I really can’t understand why some private sector workers want to see public sector workers get shafted just like “we” have over the last 30 years.

I really can’t understand why some private sector workers want to see public sector workers get shafted just like “we” have over the last 30 years.

Nail on the head, there couldn’t possibly be any other reason in this overly complicated discussion, could there?

Zulu-Eleven – have you found any evidence to back your claim that :

“a number of areas of civil service & local government recruitment has shown that the chief factor in selection was not quality, but ability to tick a minority box”

or are you still looking ?

CaptJon I apologise I won’t have time to answer your specific challenges, except to the extent covered in answering Ernie’s challenge below. However there is a useful paper (i.e. one i plagiarised) on this matter at:
http://www.tullettprebon.com/Documents/strategyinsights/Tim_Morgan_Report_007.pdf

I think chapter 4 covers this area and is well worth a skim read (I think so anyway).

Of course, Tullet-Prebon, being one if the world’s largest money exchangers (i.e. bank), would have an entirely unbiased opinion on these matters. I would tend not to skim read such articles and question their credibilty before using it as a quote. It’s basically utter buncum that seeks to divert attention from the out and out greed in global banking. Greed that has created the global recession, and not the pension schemes of a few public sector workers.

Ernie – to quote TJ:

So if we know its there but can’t prove it it didn’t happen 🙄

😉

Crikey. 😆

So you couldn’t find any then ?

Fair enough…….no surprise there.

Ernie

Thats not the point – you are claiming as we cannot show a direct casual link then it didn’t happen.

We cannot show a direct casual link between an individuals lung cancer and their smoking – however we know its there.

😆

I hated my time in public sector. I didn’t get the job based on skills, passing the silly exams did the job. When I was there there was the status quo and nobody would change that. Everyone was grey. Everyone was very dull.

There were some very bright people there and no mistake, some real geniouses and there were the odd characters who had a bit more panaz, I’m friends with a few still but generally nipping down the paper shop on a Sunday was the height of excitement for them.

One guy told me he used to be into cycling but then one day he was riding up a hill and thought, ‘sod that, it’s too much like hard work’ and never rode a bike again. Which pretty much summed up my experiences in the public sector.

(Obviously this only applies to the little part I had contact with)