All frontline NHS to be double jabbed to keep a job

So now we are down this particular rabbit hole-

Vital interest in respect to mandatory vaccination… discuss.

Quietly **** to the corner and takes a seat.

To spin it – if an employee doing a physical role had a chronic back problem that stopped them doing their job that could only be possibly resolved with surgery they could currently be quite legally dismissed on grounds of capability. Under your definition of duress if that person could only keep their job if they had that surgery that would constitute duress. And thousands of people annually end their employment like that. I’m not aware of lots of litigation off the back of it (if due process is followed).

An excellent analogy – thank you.

nonsense- not a paralell at all

It’s a hell of a lot more relevant to the discussion than forced sterilization of all males in order to protect the planet – which you thought was bang on, lol.

Like it or not, covid has changed a lot of things for a lot of people. Anyone entering a career as a healthcare professional from this point forwards is going to have to agree to have had their government mandated vaccines. Your point is that those who entered the profession prior to that, cannot lose their jobs because they refuse to get the jab – because that’s duress.

My question is: at what point do “consequences of your actions” become “duress” in your mind? Lets do a quiz….. consequences or duress?. It’s open-book, so everyone should feel free to refer to any lecture notes that they might have.

If I refuse to vaccinate my children, they can’t go to school, and I have to give up work. Duress or consequences?

If I have a back condition requiring surgery, and I’ll lose my job (because I’ll be unable to do it) if I don’t have it, duress or consequences?

Birthday party invitations that my kids are receiving are beginning to specify that only “fully vaccinated” families are welcome. I’m not vaccinated because I’m only 40 and play squash twice a week, so I’m not at risk even if I do catch it. If I don’t get vaccinated, my kids won’t be able to go to any birthday parties and will become social pariahs. Duress or consequences?

I work as a cleaner in an ICU, and I don’t want to have the covid vaccine because Joe Rogan told me I could just have ivermectin instead if I catch it, and anyway, it’s not really approved and it can make your testicles swell up to the size of watermelons. If I don’t have it, I’ll lose my Job, and have to go and clean offices instead. Duress or consequences?

I work as a care home assistant, and come in to contact with lots of people susceptible to covid as part of my job. I don’t want to have the covid vaccine because I’m an evangelical Christian and I believe that covid is a righteous plague sent by god to kill only the non-believers, therefore I will not catch it. If I don’t get the Jab I’ll lose my job, and have to go and work in a profession where the jab isn’t required. Duress or consequences.

I’m a midwife, and I don’t want the vaccine because of unspecified non-medical reasons. If I don’t have the vaccine, then I will have to transfer to a non-front-line role, or if that’s not possible: leave the NHS. I’ll be unable to get a new job in a healthcare setting, because any new employer will require vaccination anyway. So I will have to re-train for another career, or I could take a job in retail or similar, which doesn’t require retraining. Consequences or duress?

I doubt you’ll hear from Stampjumper again.

I imagine he will come up with another excellent username and hop back on after a few weeks. Not sure what he’s getting out of the experience, probably thinks he’s socking it to the sheeple.

Just booked me booster… i is sheeple but i can lick windows reasonably safely in early December..

Remember sheeple covids not just for Christmas…

I do wonder how anti vaxxers fail to see news articles about anti Vaxx protests. It’s a weird algorithm that hides those articles from them and not me

I’m not vaccinated because I’m only 40 and play squash twice a week, so I’m not at risk even if I do catch it.

So many people like this. It’s like they haven’t seen the last two years at all.

But didn’t an expert say only the other day than playing squash gives you immunity?

I was ‘meh’ about the risks of the vaccine(s). Due to previous employment I’ve had much worse injected into me. The exclamation of surprise from OH when I did an immunisation review for my current job still tickles me.

I find it interesting that we’re nine pages in now and despite a degree of righteous outrage no-one has yet come up with a legitimate reason why they’re opposed to vaccinations beyond “HELP HELP I’M BEING OPPRESSED!!”

So many people like this. It’s like they haven’t seen the last two hundred years at all.

FTFY.

Why doesn’t STW maintain – and make available – a list of banned posters and their various new user names?
We need to know.

Speaking from the point of view of someone who was a STW moderator for a decade: Spotting returning banned is really easy. Like, far easier than they think, because almost universally they’re abject roasters who perpetually make the same mistake of assuming that we’re daft. Identifying which specific returning banned they are though is considerably trickier, it’s an art (but one we got reasonably proficient at).

Even without access to mod tools I’m fairly confident that I know of at least three RBs right now and I’m maybe 50:50 on who they are. I have every faith that the incumbent moderators are at least of similar mind. The mods may or may not know with certainty who they were but I guarantee they know where they are.

In any case: the point where you “need to know” is beyond they point they will get banned again.

Meanwhile, here in Wales, aka Topsy Turvy Land, you now need a vaccine to go to the cinema, but not to work in healthcare.

I find it interesting that we’re nine pages in now and despite a degree of righteous outrage no-one has yet come up with a legitimate reason why they’re opposed to vaccinations beyond “HELP HELP I’M BEING OPPRESSED!!”

I only fancy doing unknown drugs on my terms 🙂

despite a degree of righteous outrage no-one has yet come up with a legitimate reason why they’re opposed to vaccinations

There is no logical reason

However in law a decision does not need to be logical or even not batshit crazy to be “competent” in law

My concern is not over the vaccinations – I had mine but over the coercion for healthcare workers and what that does to medical ethics

I had mine but over the coercion for healthcare workers and what that does to medical ethics

Blimey I wish I’d know that from the start of this thread. 🙂

But didn’t an expert say only the other day than playing squash gives you immunity?

Yes, I seen that in YouTube too but it was removed got hide the truth.

So many people like this. It’s like they haven’t seen the last two years at all.

They have absolutely no idea how vaccines work and then say we just use herd immunity.

Anyone working in the NHS who doesn’t want a vaccination should pootle off to Austria
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59245018

@Cougar – i shall put my head above the parapet here about the nine pages in and no specific objection being detailed. Well mine are below. If you can discuss it, im more than open to it! There’s no need for anyone to use the word ‘cretin’, there’s no need to claim that i’m a flat earther or anything like that. On a side note, it seems on here that if you have a slightly different opinion than the masses then it’s OK to hurl abuse at people or label them as thick etc…and these same people claim to be liberal and tolerant, when really they are only that as long as everyone agrees with them (and i’m not referring to you Cougar here to be clear)!

1. The government (especially this one) have lied about some monumental things. WHy would they be telling the truth about this? What makes this any different?

2. The stats that Boris et al quote are skewed at best. One i saw a few weeks ago was that x% of patients in hospital haven’t had any vaccination, but when i read the small print the stats were from Feb 2021 when of course far fewer had been vaccinated. Again, not strictly true.

3. The current vaccines have been given a ‘for emergency use only’ so regardless of what anyone says, there just isn’t enough information on any potential side effects. Comparing this to the Hep B vaccine doesn’t stack up because Hep B vaccines have been in use for years whereas these haven’t. You can still catch Covid, still pass it on….so what is the point? I test before i see my parents etc so i can be sure as i can be that i’m not infected.

4. Two years in to this kerfuffle and i still haven’t heard of anyone (customers, friends, friends of friends, acquaintances, the bloke in the pub, neighbours, neighbours friends, colleagues etc) who has actually been ill or knows anyone who has. Everyone seems to have shaken it off in a couple of weeks tops.

I think for the people who fall into the vulnerable categories, i’m all for vaccinating them.

I’m no anti vaxxer at all, but fundamentally i would prefer what i put in my body to be rigorously and sufficiently tested. In the mean time, i will be looking after myself, testing regularly and wearing a mask when in shops etc.

With reference to the profile detailed a couple of pages back regarding your average ‘anti vaxxer’, i’m afraid i do not fit into any of the categories that one or two have mentioned.

Come on then, convince me to get a vaccine….give me your best reasons and like i say, i’m open minded enough!

Two years in to this kerfuffle and i still haven’t heard of anyone (customers, friends, friends of friends, acquaintances, the bloke in the pub, neighbours, neighbours friends, colleagues etc) who has actually been ill or knows anyone who has. Everyone seems to have shaken it off in a couple of weeks tops.

I have in fact many, some still suffering yet. We lost a colleague to it and I met with another rushed into hospital, I spent some time with them before leaving them for what looked like the last time anyone who knew them would seem them again. What I do know is out of the same demographic I know no one who has refused the vaccine and not one of them has been unwell for more than 24 hours.

Burn the Troll!

Come on then, convince me to get a vaccine….give me your best reasons and like i say, i’m open minded enough!

107,849,975
That’s the number of doses given in the UK alone. How many people have been made seriously ill from all those doses? A few hundred, if that. Over 140,000 have died from Covid

@lamp – I know you were specifically debating @Cougar but must address some of your points –
3. Hep B has only been in use since the 80’s and the schedule is still being tweaked – recently the change to required 5yr booster – how can you trust them/ it? surely if they are still working on it’s schedule it cant be trustworthy? OR perhaps, like all science/ medicine it is evidence based and the knowledge and practice are constantly updated. You can also be a non-responder to Hep-B vaccine so wouldn’t be so confident, unless specifically tested for antibodies, which isn’t routinely done for travel medicine, then you can have no confidence in it.
4. – I’ll pop upstairs and let my wife know not to worry about her dad in hospital with Covid, as its all ok. She is an ITU doc and been working in horrific conditions and seen things that make me glad I left ITU years ago – but I’m sure she will take the waffling of a random internet expert seriously and just chill out about it all.
Also as an Occ Health nurse, I’ve also dealt with enough people who haven’t ‘shaken it off’ to know this is bullshit also, or maybe I just need to tell them to sort themselves out, it couldn’t possibly be Covid/ long-Covid as a bloke on singletrack hasn’t experienced it?
I’m sure I’m feeding the troll but you’re a muppet if you believe what you’ve written, and like Cougar has commented multiple times, I have no time for your bullshit anecdotal arsehatery.

1. The government (especially this one) have lied about some monumental things. WHy would they be telling the truth about this? What makes this any different?

That is mind-blowing. What a way to live.
“I don’t trust indicators on other people’s cars, because I saw someone use them incorrectly?”
How many times have they told the truth?

What would benefit them by lying about this?

That is mind-blowing. What a way to live.
“I don’t trust indicators on other people’s cars, because I saw someone use them incorrectly?”
How many times have they told the truth?

What would benefit them by lying about this?

And that’s before you remember the uncomfortable truth that this is not a UK thing but a Global thing. If Brexit has taught us anything it’s that our leaders don’t play nice together…..yet they all managed to get together a spin a line about vaccines and keep on message.

Some people’s minds must be pretty messed up to live in.

Two years in to this kerfuffle and i still haven’t heard of anyone (customers, friends, friends of friends, acquaintances, the bloke in the pub, neighbours, neighbours friends, colleagues etc) who has actually been ill or knows anyone who has.

I find that staggering. You don’t anyone who knows someone who has had COVID-19?

Do you live somewhere very remote?

“..yet they all managed to get together a spin a line about vaccines and keep on message.”

Er, no…

The Astra jab was deemed a bit dodgy by some countries, non?

The Astra jab was deemed a bit dodgy by some countries, non?

Which makes it even more amazing a cover up – they managed to have a nuanced disagreement and still keep on a global message about vaccines being a good thing. Apart from Bolsonaro, the snitch. That’s the man I’d be clinging to for sage advice come the end of days.

I’m no anti vaxxer at all, but fundamentally i would prefer what i put in my body to be rigorously and sufficiently tested.

Obviously you have never used recreational drugs purchased from your local dealer/ mate/ random in a club…….

The Astra jab was deemed a bit dodgy by some countries, non?

I don’t think any country claimed it was dodgy. Some, possibly for political reasons, questioned it’s effectiveness. Some questioned the level of risk it might be associated with. Both considerations could apply to any vaccine.

No country claimed that it contained a microchip so that Bill Gates could keep an eye on your daily movements. That would be dodgy, if you were bothered about Bill Gates knowing your movements.

fundamentally i would prefer what i put in my body to be rigorously and sufficiently tested.

I’ll pick this one as no one else has.

Probably the most extensively tested vaccine brought in to use. The whole world practically stopped what it was doing and focused all its time, effort and brain power on getting it developed and tested. Same volume of work and testing, just concentrated in time as everything else got put to one side.

I personally know no one who’s reacted to the vaccine worse than my daughter with a 4 day headache. I know two people who died of covid and only one of whom would be considered “vulnerable”.

Come on then, convince me to get a vaccine….give me your best reasons and like i say, i’m open minded enough!

I doubt some gob on a web forum can allay the irrational fears that you hold despite the insurmountable evidence provided by the scientific community over the previous 18months so I’ll pass

Come on then, convince me to get a vaccine….give me your best reasons and like i say, i’m open minded enough!

How about you provide more insight into the ‘majority of NHS staff’ claim?

It’s the village that’s missing its idiot that I’m concerned about….

@lamp you really want a sensible debate on your points?

1. The government (especially this one) have lied about some monumental things. WHy would they be telling the truth about this? What makes this any different?

Governments don’t approve medicines, independent regulators do. In my experience everyone in those regulatory is absolutely robust in their independence and if there was any serious concern that either a manufacturer or a government was trying to influence a safety decision they would whistleblow. Its conceivable that one or two country’s regulators might succumb to political pressure – but given so many have approved so many vaccines I think you are showing some unnecessary concern, after all, what does any individual government gain from its regulator approving a product that others do not? And think your logic through for that – because its likely to at least make one of your other 3 points seem crazy.

2. The stats that Boris et al quote are skewed at best. One i saw a few weeks ago was that x% of patients in hospital haven’t had any vaccination, but when i read the small print the stats were from Feb 2021 when of course far fewer had been vaccinated. Again, not strictly true.

OK anyone who makes their decisions either for or against something because that bumbling buffoon said something is clearly deluded.

Latest data from ONS covering a six month period:

In England, between 2 January and 2 July 2021, there were 51,281 deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19); 640 occurred in people who were fully vaccinated, which includes people who had been infected before they were vaccinated. (Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/deathsinvolvingcovid19byvaccinationstatusengland/deathsoccurringbetween2januaryand2july2021)

but the stats don’t initially look so good the longer it goes on I hear you cry; well, read and digest this article by David Spiegelhalter, a highly renowned statistician who is frequently quite critical of government misuse of stats and clearly isn’t in the Johnson fan club:

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/jun/27/why-most-people-who-now-die-with-covid-have-been-vaccinated

3. The current vaccines have been given a ‘for emergency use only’ so regardless of what anyone says, there just isn’t enough information on any potential side effects. Comparing this to the Hep B vaccine doesn’t stack up because Hep B vaccines have been in use for years whereas these haven’t. You can still catch Covid, still pass it on….so what is the point? I test before i see my parents etc so i can be sure as i can be that i’m not infected.

You have a misnomer (or two!) on there. Firstly the Pfizer and Astrazeneca vaccines aren’t “for emergency use” in the UK they have “Temporary Authorisation”, I presume you’ve picked up on some US terminology (where they talk about Emergency Use Authorisation) – but even then its not “for emergency use”. The Moderna and Janssen vaccines have conditional authorisation. There’s subtle differences between the two – but its wrong to call either emergency use only. There’s probably more data on the side effects of all 4 of these vaccines than virtually any other new drug put on the market. What is missing is long term efficacy data – ie. how long before you need a booster (especially for different age groups etc). How many people need to have been given the vaccine and survived unscathed before you will accept that they are safe given you obviously don’t trust the experienced statisticians at the MHRA and other global regulators to make that assessment?

Yes you can still catch covid, yes you can still pass it on. But all the clinical evidence suggests you are MUCH less likely to get severely ill and MUCH less likely to die (regardless of your age or other conditions) if you are fully vaccinated – that is the point. Yes its possible that without being vaccinated you will get very ill or die anyway, but that’s a roll of the dice. There is some evidence that suggest you may be less likely to pass it on after vaccination, but there is some data that question that for new variants (although its difficult to define control groups as social behaviours etc constantly change).

Your assumption is that you don’t have the virus so won’t pass it to your parents or other people because you are regularly testing, is flawed. No test is 100% reliable and self test for covid at home are certainly not. If it spots 70% of cases that’s good enough to be useful to help stop the spread but it means there’s a real risk that people like you are “hugging their grannies” in the false belief that they almost certainly don’t have covid when they may do. If you have been double vaccinated AND tested negative then baysian statistics would suggest it is then less likely to be a false negative and you would be protecting others even more.

4. Two years in to this kerfuffle and i still haven’t heard of anyone (customers, friends, friends of friends, acquaintances, the bloke in the pub, neighbours, neighbours friends, colleagues etc) who has actually been ill or knows anyone who has. Everyone seems to have shaken it off in a couple of weeks tops.

That seems strange to me. You’ve used two different phrases which is either tricking yourself or being intentionally obtuse. Either you don’t know anyone who has actually been ill or people have shaken it off – it can’t be both. I think what you are trying to say is you don’t know anyone who has been very ill – because the alternative is almost impossible. That’s a bit surprising to me, whilst most people I’ve met or heard of who have been ill have recovered within 2 to 3 weeks and describe it as being like a nasty flu (which don’t forget kills many people every year and is a part of another mass vaccination program) but I personally know: 2 people who died from covid (both over 65 but not people you’d have expected to die this year anyway), indirectly know about 3 or 4 others, and an elderly neighbour who nobody expected to come home form the hospital after 3 months but has done but has gone from being a fairly active octogenarian to being bedbound. I also know someone in their 40s who spent three nights in hospital and someone in their 50s who spent 3 weeks in ITU, and someone who is normally a very fit athlete in her 50s who is still suffering long covid now from the first wave – it took her 9 months to be able to run again and she’s only now getting back close to the form she was on before but reports being constantly tired. And during the summer I bumped into a friend (he’s 39) who can usually run a 5k in half my time walking with sticks ~8 weeks after a covid infection. He was due to get his first dose of the vaccine the week he got sick. My brother, who works in a hospital, got it in the first wave and describes it as the sickest he’s ever been: normally fit and well in his early 40’s: was back at work after 2-3 weeks but was still coughing and wheezing walking up stairs for another 2-3.

You may not be anti-vax but your final point sure sounds like you are a covid denier. Are you one of the people who believes hospitals weren’t really overrun, operations didn’t need to be cancelled and NHS staff were sitting around empty wards waiting for the surge that never came?

I think if you want to seem credible in arguing against a vaccine you probably need to pick one main argument and stick to it rather than flipping between 4 – because that seems like you’ve made a decision and will then use any glimmer of an argument to back it up.

Personally I’ve no issue if you just don’t want a vaccine, I don’t even need you to justify it to me. It’s your choice, as TJ says you have the right to consent or not no matter how irrational your argument might be. Where it becomes more concerning is when you start preaching those reasons, because it becomes a mechanism (even if unintended) for recruiting others to join your arguments.

Now if you are an NHS England employee (I assume you are not if you don’t think people actually get very sick with Covid) in a patient-facing role, it may be (if this becomes reality) that you will have to change job or quite possibly find yourself leaving the NHS because of your convictions. That’s when it becomes a test of how seriously do you believe your arguments and how much are you just being difficult.

@lamp –

if you have a slightly different opinion than the masses then it’s OK to hurl abuse at people or label them as thick etc…

Whilst it’s a fun game to be special, actual lives are at stake and people are dying. Neither I nor the virus cares about anyone’s “opinion” I’m afraid.

1. The government (especially this one) have lied about some monumental things. WHy would they be telling the truth about this? What makes this any different?

Yes they have, you’re quite correct. I wouldn’t trust “the government (especially this one)” to tell me whether it was raining or not. But what is the “this” that they’d be lying about and what would they hope to gain from doing so in the midst of a global pandemic?

2. The stats that Boris et al quote are skewed at best.

This is a variation of 1. You may well be right. So what?

3. The current vaccines have been given a ‘for emergency use only’

No they haven’t. And even if they were, well, this is an emergency. Fire extinguishers are for emergency use only, that doesn’t make them bottles of petrol.

so regardless of what anyone says, there just isn’t enough information on any potential side effects.

This is flat out nonsense I’m afraid. We have two centuries’ worth of data on vaccination. Know many people with Polio, do you?

Even if we didn’t, where’s your information on potential side effects from contracting SARS-Coronvirus-2? Why do you think that coming down with Covid is preferable to a vaccine?

You can still catch Covid, still pass it on….so what is the point?

The point is…

4. Two years in to this kerfuffle and i still haven’t heard of anyone (customers, friends, friends of friends, acquaintances, the bloke in the pub, neighbours, neighbours friends, colleagues etc) who has actually been ill or knows anyone who has. Everyone seems to have shaken it off in a couple of weeks tops.

So you do, in fact, know people who have been ill then?

In reply to your previous “what’s the point?” question: were the ones you know who got better vaccinated?

I think for the people who fall into the vulnerable categories, i’m all for vaccinating them.

Many of the people who fall into the vulnerable categories cannot be vaccinated, precisely because they’re vulnerable. That is, again, the point.

I’m no anti vaxxer at all

Sure you aren’t.

but fundamentally i would prefer what i put in my body to be rigorously and sufficiently tested.

It is.

convince me to get a vaccine….give me your best reasons and like i say, i’m open minded enough!

Are you? Are you really? Is there anything I or anyone else could say that would convince you?

You demonstrably, fundamentally don’t understand how vaccination works. Which is fine, you don’t need to, life hopefully goes on. But that being the case you either need to learn about it or you need to accept that cleverer people than you (and I) know more about it. If you reject both of those positions then I’m sorry but position number three involves the words you were railing against at the start of your post.

I personally know no one who’s reacted to the vaccine worse than my daughter with a 4 day headache.

I do. Me. It put me on my back for 12 hours and I was off work for two days. I was shivering one minute, sweating bullets the next, shaking like a shitting dog and felt like I’d fallen down the stairs. It was bloody horrible.

I have (amongst many) a team mate who caught CV2. Where I was off work for two days, he came down with Covid and was off for two months and still isn’t particularly grand several months later.

He has – sorry, had – an uncle who wasn’t that lucky. “Long-term side effects” anyone? Well, you might have a long term in which to get side effects.

Get vaccinated, it’s better than the potential alternatives.

ok then @lamp….. here we go. Just to be clear: I’m not calling you a cretin, but I will say that all of your points have been discussed (and answered in multiple ways) ad infinitum both on here and in the national media, both in the UK and in almost every other country around the world. If you still have genuine questions about this stuff I would be surprised. But as I said, here we go:

1. The government (especially this one) have lied about some monumental things. WHy would they be telling the truth about this? What makes this any different?

What specifically do you think they are lying about? Whatever it is, fine, don’t listen to the government: listen to the doctors, the nurses, the public health experts, both in the UK, or in any other country. Read an article in Nature, the New Scientist, the BMJ – or do you think everyone is lying? (FYI: that would put you firmly in the cretin category)

2. The stats that Boris et al quote are skewed at best. One i saw a few weeks ago was that x% of patients in hospital haven’t had any vaccination, but when i read the small print the stats were from Feb 2021 when of course far fewer had been vaccinated. Again, not strictly true.

There are lots of sources of information available – some more reliable than others. If you found one which you identified as being misleading – just look at any number of other ones. For example, googling “% of UK hospital admissions vaccinated” brings this back as the first hit:

link

Pretty clear explanation. If you don’t believe the BMJ, then refer to my answer to question #1

3. The current vaccines have been given a ‘for emergency use only’ so regardless of what anyone says, there just isn’t enough information on any potential side effects. Comparing this to the Hep B vaccine doesn’t stack up because Hep B vaccines have been in use for years whereas these haven’t. You can still catch Covid, still pass it on….so what is the point? I test before i see my parents etc so i can be sure as i can be that i’m not infected.

There is a lot to unpack in that lot. Yes, it’s been given emergency approval (or each countries equivalent)….. because the COVID-19 pandemic is an emergency. However that does not mean there is “not enough information on side effects” – it’s just how the approval process works. Pretty much every covid vaccine is under “emergency use authorization” in pretty much every country, despite 7.3 BILLION doses being given to date a huge number of trials having reported data, and a massive amount of scrutiny being given to any and every emerging trend. There is nowhere to go on this subject really: you either believe what all of these doctors, experts, scientists etc are telling you, have published and has been scruitinised…. and found to be safe and effective, or you don’t. If you don’t, then refer to answer #1.

4. Two years in to this kerfuffle and i still haven’t heard of anyone (customers, friends, friends of friends, acquaintances, the bloke in the pub, neighbours, neighbours friends, colleagues etc) who has actually been ill or knows anyone who has. Everyone seems to have shaken it off in a couple of weeks tops.

Is this some kind of dog whistle to the fact you think this is a conspiracy? Do you doubt the fact that 142,000 people in the UK have died of COVID (probably significantly more actually) and over 5,000,000 people have died worldwide (again, probably significantly more)? If so, see #1.

“i still haven’t heard of” is not the same as something not happening (I think that’s obvious, but maybe it’s not?). Maybe you only have 3 friends and they are all hermits? Two of my relatives have died of it, and I know a few people with long covid – there are many people who I have spoken to with the same experience. I believe there is a whole thread on here about people’s own covid experience.

I actually don’t think that what you are saying here is true, but even if it was…. and you really don’t know anyone who-knows-anyone who’s been significantly impacted by Covid, is your position really that: despite all of the information that you have about COVID, you still don’t really understand quite how dangerous/serious it is because you don’t personally know anyone who has died/has been seriously ill? Do you look both ways when crossing the road? Does your house have a smoke alarm?

So I guess where I have ended up is…… you might not be a cretin (and I’m not calling you a cretin), but your reasons given for not being vaccinated are the same as those of a cretin.

Probably the most extensively tested vaccine brought in to use. The whole world practically stopped what it was doing and focused all its time, effort and brain power on getting it developed and tested. Same volume of work and testing, just concentrated in time as everything else got put to one side.

The short term effects have been rxamined in great detail but the medium and long term is still very much a mystery.
It is only recently becoming apparent that booster jabs are necessary. The full and comprehensive testing didn’t reveal that little nugget of wisdom. What else is there to discover?
Granted, Covid also holds long term mysteries, but which holds the most risk is up for me to decide, not you!

Some very good replies for you there lamp. Being open minded, looking at research/expert advice from medical side rather than government I imagine you are now booking your vaccine?

By the way, I live in a small village (no the punchline is not about village idiots) and three people have died (died, not been slightly ill) from Covid and my wife was in hospital wth it.

Granted, Covid also holds long term mysteries, but which holds the most risk is up for me to decide, not you!

That’s fine. Please quote the scientific papers and sources you are using to make your informed choice.

“That’s fine. Please quote the scientific papers and sources you are using to make your informed choice.”

Duh?