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Tell Javid that – he has made it clear – Jag or risk lose your job
I don't work for Javid.
And yet no one seems to want to comment or discuss that post. Much better to instead focus on anger-fuelled vindictiveness. Apparently.
Ever considered a career as a tabloid headline writer? You've missed your calling.
Ever considered a career as a tabloid headline writer? You’ve missed your calling.
Interesting comment from someone who exudes so much anger and clearly relishes denigrating those with different opinions.
Anyway, putting personal attacks to one side ..... have you got any opinions concerning the strategy outlined by sparkymcguff cougar?
It sounds very much like the practical, sensible, and reasonable solution, to vaccine hesitancy within the NHS, without the need for interference from politicians and their arbitrary deadlines.
And yet no one seems to want to comment or discuss that post. Much better to instead focus on anger-fuelled vindictiveness. Apparently.
Umm no, I am fully aware of these efforts, thats why we are where we are now. People have had over a year to work this out. The last stragglers, have had all the efforts spent on them. If you put the line in the sand, see if they respond properly, if not, then they need to be redeployed or sacked.
EG look at this. 34 officers out of 10k unvaxxed refused in the end.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/new-york-police-vaccine-mandate-b1949518.html
To be fair another 1000 stayed off work than normal, but probably they were brought round, there are approx 100k employees so 1% refusal at worst.
you put the line in the sand
And yet a very major teaching hospital says that the April 1st deadline will have devastating consequences for them, and therefore presumably patients.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/covid-vaccine-nhs-hospital-staff-b1990111.html
Should we listen to them or the politicians?
Yes but thats the point, the NYC police union said the same thing, when in fact the deadline made little difference. Have you read the article?
On Monday, however, that chaos failed to materialise. Less than three dozen NYPD officers were put on unpaid leave, and the department reported no interruption in service.
“Members of the police department responded to this [vaccine mandate], they came to work as they always do, and there is literally no effect on service at this point,” Mr Shea said on Monday.
From the NYC article.
And in your own link, they expect less disrution than you headline.
Speaking on the BBC’s Sunday Morning show, Clive Kay, the chief executive of King’s College Hospital (KCH), said that 10 per cent of the 14,000 staff are still to receive their first dose of the jab. He added that, as a result, more than 1,000 KCH workers could be lost in an “extreme” scenario, unless vaccine uptake improves.
Have you read the article?
No I haven't. Presumably the hospital management at Kings haven't either.
Have you read this posted earlier by poly?
if people think that refusing will get them redeployed not sacked the motivation to get vaxxed may not be there (or worse – may be higher – if you are in a front line shitty job and there’s an option to refuse vaccination and get moved to a perceived less aggressive role you might even be encouraged to hold off vaccination to get the job move!)
Don't know how much evidence there is of that but an interesting angle when considering whether politicians know best.
Edit : Were NYPD officers offered redeployment? If you insist on making a direct comparison.
No I haven’t. Presumably the hospital management at Kings haven’t either.
I do not think you have read your own link either. The hospital management said 1000 in an extreme scenario, the NYC example shows that given the deadline most staff will comply. Anyone left can be suspended and resources can then be focussed on the alst few persuading them its better idea to take it. Bin the final refusers after a month or so of "duress".
At least the deadline will weed out the refusers.
Make it staged. Deadline = suspension on full pay. xx Days to comply, then suspension on no pay for a period, and then finally bin them.
Yes I read my own link. I very much doubt that Kings are creating a fuss about something which they don't perceive to be much of a problem.
And yes, I fully expect them to give the worse case scenario to make their point. It would be daft not to.
So, this below
And yes, I fully expect them to give the worse case scenario to make their point. It would be daft not to.
Kinda undermines this below right?
And yet a very major teaching hospital says that the April 1st deadline will have devastating consequences for them, and therefore presumably patients.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/covid-vaccine-nhs-hospital-staff-b1990111.html
Should we listen to them or the politicians?
I mean should we believe the Hospital either if they are going to inflate the emergency to make a point?
In fact I think the Hospital have been paraphrased to make a headline.
Worth a read.
Looks like the House of Lords submitted a report back in November 2021 suggesting that there isn't enough evidence to mandate vaccines for NHS workers.
Apologies if it's been posted before.
Kinda undermines this below right?
You obviously think it does. I obviously think it doesn't. I very much doubt that Kings would be concerned about the possible dire consequences of the deadline a few weeks away if there was no reason for them to be concerned, whatever happened with the NYPD.
What makes me particularly concerned is that the whole policy is dictated by politicians, which I remain unconvinced are the best placed to decide.
Especially as the policy was only successfully passed because one man made a U-turn.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/labour-opposes-mandatory-jabs-nhs-084018989.html
I'm not sure how qualified Starmer is on these matters.
The policy is also opposed by all the royal colleges and all the unions and many senior managers
It also only applies to England not Scotland and wales.
its just a political stunt. The intent IMO is to try to create another "enemy within" to blame for the tories failures
What makes me particularly concerned is that the whole policy is dictated by politicians, which I remain unconvinced are the best placed to decide.
I can agree on this, I mean its a good way to speed up privatization, put even more stress on the system, however I am not convinced the lords numnbers are accurate, they think 61% of the current unvaxxed will remain refusers.
But I am also fed up with Govian anti science so to me mandatory vaxx are a great idea, **** the stupids. I am happy with your policy to persuade as many as possible, but in the end the diminishing returns should end up with sanctions on the refusers.
Anyway, putting personal attacks to one side ….. have you got any opinions concerning the strategy outlined by sparkymcguff
This is the strategy, but the strategy has a deadline that is approaching.
Think TJ is right on this, we have two opposing views - both with merit - and we're going round in circles. Time to close the thread maybe
"I would have thought that a concerted effort to inform and educate would leave such a small minority unvaccinated that compulsion might not be necessary, and the few remaining could be deployed where they pose no risk."
But Scientists are notoriously bad at explaining stuff to ordinary people. Who are they going to get to do that?
Look at all the self regarding clever clogs on here, including one mod, reduced to shouting at people who don't agree with them...
including one mod, reduced to shouting at people who don’t agree with them…
Errmm -if that is aimed at Drac he has been really quite gentle considering his very strong position and his irritation with me. cougar resigned his modship a while back
I think its been pretty well tempered even tho I have been on the wrong end of the popular vote
This is the strategy, but the strategy has a deadline that is approaching.
The deadline is arbitrary, politically motivated, won’t increase take up and the mandate is too broad. By all means have compulsory vaccination within a tightly defined area of health care. But anything else is over reach and won’t add any meaningful protection to the public. In short it’s not evidenced based.
FYI the apples and bananas comparisons to various occupations earlier in the thread are pointless and add nothing to the conversation. What do they call it around these parts “straw man” arguments?
No, not aimed at Drac, or Cougar...
The mod in question is now an ex mod and his very shiny badge is up for grabs...
I am happy with your policy to persuade as many as possible
Whoa, it's not my policy..... I'm not qualified to have an opinion on the matter. Nor are politicians of course, which is my only point.
It is obvious that there exists a conflict of opinion between the government and hospital/trust managements, otherwise there wouldn't be an issue and the government wouldn't have set the April 1st deadline.
The only opinion I have on the matter is that I don't have more faith in the opinion of the government than I do in the NHS.
It's interesting that on a forum which is so consistently critical of the government, especially of its handling of the current pandemic, and sometimes unfairly imo, so many should be backing the government on this matter.
have you got any opinions concerning the strategy outlined by sparkymcguff
Our trusts I know of have been taking the stance mentioned. After all we’re over a year in for NHS staff being vaccinated. The government have felt the need to step in. Out of those not vaccinated there will be those who are exempt, those who don’t work face to face and some ready to leave. There is going to be a bit of a wave of leavers following the latest pension changes.
It’s interesting that on a forum which is so consistently critical of the government, especially of its handling of the current pandemic, and sometimes unfairly imo, so many should be backing the government on this matter.
This is logically unsound, and a bit ridiculous. I agree with some stuff they do, I don't disagree just cos its the govt. Thats not scientific is it, its just dogma.
I mean Hitler liked dogs, should I hate dogs? if i like dogs does that mean I am a nazi.
It is obvious that there exists a conflict of opinion between the government and hospital/trust managements,
And all the professional bodies and the devolved governments. Its The tories that are the outliers
Interesting comment from someone who exudes so much anger and clearly relishes denigrating those with different opinions.
I was going to say "I'm not angry" but in this case I am. I'm angry with vaccine deniers and I'm getting increasingly cross with people who defend them. You can think the earth is flat or the moon landings were faked and that's (offensive but) harmless so fill your boots. But this shit is dangerous. I tested positive an hour after picking my mum up from hospital after surgery, almost certainly as a result of an interaction with a covid-denier.
Sure, I like a forum debate as much as the next argumentative shitbag who enters into this arena willingly. I've butted heads with you Ernie and with TJ and countless others and it's essentially sport. But please don't see fit to lecture me about "opinions" over what could have been a fatal outcome for the sole family member I still have left. That's too far.
Anyway, putting personal attacks to one side ….. have you got any opinions concerning the strategy outlined by sparkymcguff cougar?
Must've missed that, sorry.
No, not aimed at Drac, or Cougar…
The mod in question is now an ex mod and his very shiny badge is up for grabs…
Errrrr!
almost certainly as a result of an interaction with a covid-denier.
What absolute bollocks , you could have got it anywhere from anyone, jabbed or not
But this shit is dangerous. I tested positive an hour after picking my mum up from hospital after surgery
You expect to test positive an an hour after coming in contact with the virus? I can't think of any other reason for you making that comment.
I'm certainly no expert but I can't help thinking that you haven't fully understood the science behind the pandemic. Which under the circumstances is somewhat ironic.
It’s interesting that on a forum which is so consistently critical of the government, especially of its handling of the current pandemic, and sometimes unfairly imo, so many should be backing the government on this matter.
Even stopped clocks are right twice a day.
And also interesting that even those of us with a blind hatred of the Tories, especially their handling of the pandemic, don't see this as a party political issue.
You mean like this :
And all the professional bodies and the devolved governments. Its The tories that are the outliers
Even stopped clocks are right twice a day.
It's not simply whether the government is right that is the issue, it's whether senior healthcare professionals are wrong.
"It’s not simply whether the government is right that is the issue, it’s whether senior healthcare professionals are wrong."
It may depend on who pays them...
More cash - its very much a party political issue. its a purely political ploy. Starmer was trapped into voting for it
You expect to test positive an an hour after coming in contact with the virus?
They did not say that. Just that they (unknowingly) put their relative and others at the hospital at risk after being (unknowingly) infected themselves. Which must have felt horrible. And you can see why that would get them angry.
its a purely political ploy
Why? I get the feeling this government would run a mile from “mandating” anything if they thought they could. What “ploy” do they have when it comes to how they get the last vaccine hold outs in care and health services to get jabbed? What is in it for them politically?
No, being angry because you have tested covid positive seems like a strange emotion.
I didn't feel in the least angry about testing positive.
Edit : Obviously I wasn't too happy about it buggering up Christmas plans at the last minute. But I wasn't seeking revenge against the person who gave it to me.
Try some empathy.
Try some empathy.
Well yes. He should have done the test an hour before seeing a vulnerable person, not an hour afterwards, it's what the government advises.
"No, being angry because you have tested covid positive seems like a strange emotion."
Really? I'd be effin' fuming! Stuff to do... not just fill me face with turkey 'n pud!
Why?
Its about creating an "enemy within" to blame for their failures. I think they hoped that the royal colleges would be even stronger in their opposition so they could be labeled "part of the problem" and it lets folk think they are doing something significant whereas it will make very little difference across the english NHS part from making staff shortages worse
"look we are doing everything we can but these pesky doctors and nurse are stopping us doing this"
Its been one of their key tactics from the beginning - finding scapegoats to blame and creating diversions to avoid their actions being placed under scrutiny
“look we are doing everything we can but these pesky doctors and nurse are stopping us doing this”
Plausible. I don’t buy it yet, but it’s possible.
Friends and family I know (including pesky doctors and nurses) in the NHS are behind vaccinations being mandated. If it wasn’t for this thread, and one outspoken anaesthetist who won’t get off my radio, I wouldn’t be aware of any kick back.
Just as well yo have been enlightened then...
Friends and family I know (including pesky doctors and nurses) in the NHS are behind vaccinations being mandated. If it wasn’t for this thread, and one outspoken anaesthetist who won’t get off my radio, I wouldn’t be aware of any kick back.
I don't know ANYONE that supports mandatory vaccinations. Not one single person.
And the current situation with Omicron makes mandating even less credible
I was referring to NHS staff. Those I know support all NHS staff being vaccinated if dealing with patients. Do you know many who don’t? Not sure it’s really a necessary move myself, but they all seem to just want to crack on with everyone vaccinated. I wasn’t referring to the general population outside social care and health workers.
"I was referring to NHS staff. All those I know support all NHS staff being vaccinated if dealing with patients."
I don't! But then I'm not an NHS staff, just a possible patient, grateful to get fixed, maybe, but would like it if you were to wear a mask...
I couldn't give a 5hit if you're vaccinated or not! just don't breathe all over me...
TJ’s point was that the government were setting up a situation where they could benefit politically from NHS staff kicking back against vaccination rules for NHS staff. I was referring to that, and talking explicitly about the attitudes of NHS staff that I know (who aren’t against what the government are doing on this specific point). I wasn’t referring to the attitudes of patients or the wider public.