Airwolf & Chinese Carbon Frames – Will I lose my teeth?

Hi folks,
I am after a cheap hardtail and came across a company on eBay called Airwolf. They sell a frame similar in appearance and geometry to the Santa Cruz Highball. Has anyone bought a frame from them? Or can anyone recommend any other “brands”?

I was figuring compared to handlebars or forks I am less likely to lose my teeth on a frame.

Thanks!

Cheers, Rich

I’ve no experience of buying cheap Chinese Carbon on eBay / but don’t most carbon frames have a metal insert for the bb to press into? Looking at the pictures of the air wolf hardtail the bottom bracket looks like bare carbon which doesn’t fill me with excitement.

It will *probably* be ok to ride on.

Ordered one on a whim a couple of weeks ago – ticked my boxes for 29er, boost, >30mm seat tube for dropper, reasonable reach and HA, except for BB everything else should transfer from what I have. Missed the On-One Whippet offer earlier in the year (£500 frame + carbon fork), been watching since for a sale but it’s been stuck at £800 frame only.

Hadn’t clocked how similar the geo was to a Highball – I’d put the YFM026 numbers into geometrygeeks a while ago, large looks the same except for a slightly longer chainstay.

As it’s ebay rather than alibaba/aliexpress I figured if it doesn’t turn up or isn’t what they said it’ll be straightforward to get a refund. Don’t think it’s actually been dispatched yet, they emailed to say that China EMS wasn’t accepting large packages (covid, etc) and I could pay extra tor disptach via HK or use DPD. I opted to wait.

I’ve been riding a Carbonda for about 7 months and ~2500kms. I’d recommend them. I Googled Carbonda frame failure before I bought mine and couldn’t find anything that was conclusively a manufacturing fault. I also internally inspected my frame when it arrived and the quality was very good.

I bought a carbon road frame from eBay about 5 year’s ago and it’s still going strong. Built it as a flat bar commuting bike and had zero issues with the frame

Zero AM29 £475.00 (boost)
DMR Trailstar (27.5+/will take a small 29) £285 (142mm)

vs dodgy looking BB and what’s labelled and looks like a brake cable rather than hose.
Doesn’t bode well for the rest of the frame quality.

couldn’t find anything that was conclusively a manufacturing fault.

You won’t, or it’s very rare. Carbon failures due to manufacturing faults usually destroy evidence of the fault when it fails ie turns into a mess of carbon shards in that area. You might get an idea of what caused it by cutting it up to look at other areas for a guide, or looking at a run of frames, but I doubt that happens in forum or blog review cases. There’s going to be a lot of bias in there too – people want to believe in the bargains (they may be right to – I’m just saying buyer beware and beware of bias).

I raced a Chinese cx frame while back for few years no issue. Sold it on its still doing cx races 👍🏻

I also internally inspected my frame when it arrived and the quality was very good.

@daffy just wondering how you did this? Any tips?

Got 6000+ miles on my Chinese road frame which I bought on the basis of it being the cheapest one I could find on Aliexpress, and it’s not missed a beat.

@Damascus – I have an RS Pro Boroscope with a 5.5mm diameter head. I can’t get it into the seatstays, but the chainstays and main tubes were finished well. There was a piece of EPS mandrill in the chainstay, but given the diameter, I thought it was acceptable and easily removed.

Yep the one weak aspect was the BB. PF have to be pretty accurate for pressing in otherwise “crack”. Thanks folks for your thoughts…

@simon_g They tried the DPD $100 on me as well. The person said they would pay taxes and it would arrive 9 days instead of 30 days. I’m waiting to hear about stock before ordering.

Worth a look at this instead?

https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-htc100-carbon-hardtail-frameset/build/#Bike

I haven’t looked at the geo but it’s an xc carbon hardtail frame for £399. U.K. warrantied and reputable company. Frame looks nicer and has a metal insert for the bb.

Ican I believe are a reputable carbon part supplier from China – they also have a cheap carbon hardtail that looks less dubious than the air wolf for a sensible price. Reach is very short though vs seat tube length and it’s got a bare carbon bb shell.

Ribble isn’t boost and is quite short/high/steep geo. Pretty sure it’s a chinese design that’s been around for quite a few years now.

have an RS Pro Boroscope with a 5.5mm diameter head. I can’t get it into the seatstays, but the chainstays and main tubes were finished well

Fraid this wont tell you anything. You can’t tell wall thickness from that inspection. You can’t tell areas of delimitation or where adequate compaction hasn’t occurred. You can’t tell how well the joints have been bonded and the penetration of the bonds. These are all the defects that will ultimately contribute to the structural integrity of the frame – unfortunately the standard of finish on the internal surfaces of the frame doesn’t tell you a great deal. It might be indicative of the care and attention to detail they’ve taken in the manufacturing process but you could be making false correlations either way. You can pay for a detailed ultrasonic inspection but again this wont tell you the whole story. There are limitations to the type of defects you can pick up with ultrasound.

You’re taking a risk for sure as what do you know about quality control? nothing. At least with a big brand, even if they have not actually manufactured the frame they are in charge of quality control and should have adequate measure to ensure the manufacturing repeatability and quality and conformed to some kind of internationally recognised standards. just because a cheap Chinese frame is manufactured in the same factory as an expensive branded frame doesn’t mean it is manufactured to the same quality or level. The brand will provide the manufacturer with a detailed spec drawn up by their own design engineers and control the QC. That is the difference and one of the reasons for the price difference, as well as massive mark ups on a premium luxury product.

Luescher Teknick did a back to back comparison of a proper Pinarello and a Chinese fake Pinarello. To be fair the fake faired pretty well and in some areas was finished more nicely than the real one – aesthetically at least. However in a couple of critical areas like the head tube junction, there were worrying issues and differences and the problem there is that its a highly stressed part of the frame and a failure in that area would lead to a much more catastrophic failure and in all likelihood big and dangerous accident. The fork was sub standard compared to the proper frame too, again an area you don’t want to be messing about with. So a cheap Chinese frame might be 99% as good as a branded not-so cheap frame, but that 1% difference could be the most important 1%.

Go on, plenty of people riding cheap Chinese frames with no issues so you’ll probably be OK, especially if you’re not doing any particularly gnarly riding. And you might well think that if the frame breaks and you have to replace then you’ve probably still saved money over a branded frame…provided the breakage doesn’t cause a big accident of course. You pays your money and takes your chances. So long as you go into it with your eyes wide open.

Firstly, just avoid anything that’s got fake ‘branded’ stickers.

Second, most bike carbon frames regardless of the paint and stickers are made in China and Taiwan these days, so it doesn’t mean it’s inferior quality.

There are quite a few Chinese manufacturers of open-mould frames – the likes of X-Pace who sell to the likes of Planet-X and Ribble and who will also sell frames to other sellers who sell them unbranded. Lots on eBay/ AliExpress – do some research to find the reputable sellers / frame models.

I treat with scepticism anyone who refers to QC and composite manufacture because that’s not how things are made anymore. The notion that you have one factory making ‘good’ frames and ‘bad’ frames side-by-side in the same factory is laughable – it’s the kind up rubbish made up by bike brands PR departments and lapped-up by bike mag hacks seeking advertising revenue.

wobbliscott

Fraid this wont tell you anything. You can’t tell wall thickness from that inspection. You can’t tell areas of delimitation or where adequate compaction hasn’t occurred. You can’t tell how well the joints have been bonded and the penetration of the bonds. These are all the defects that will ultimately contribute to the structural integrity of the frame – unfortunately the standard of finish on the internal surfaces of the frame doesn’t tell you a great deal. It might be indicative of the care and attention to detail they’ve taken in the manufacturing process but you could be making false correlations either way. You can pay for a detailed ultrasonic inspection but again this wont tell you the whole story. There are limitations to the type of defects you can pick up with ultrasound.

As an aerospace engineer with a background in composite design and manufacturing, I’m fully aware of this, but like I said, I chose the manufacturer of my frame with care. IWhen I asked, they explained why T800 was used in place of T700 in certain areas to increase stiffness and even showed some of the smaller specifically cut pieces of the T800 they used for each frame. Also whilst this frame may look a lot like my UPPER, it’s nowhere near as light. 30% heavier in frame and fork.

I internally inspected the frame when it arrived as I’ve had cheap chinese carbon components installed on bikes I’ve bought second hand and in each there were notable internal defects such as wrinkles in the ply, resin rich pockets where no weave was visible at all and even pits/troughs where the mandrill has obviously gone wrong and produced compressed areas in the layup.

I’m fully aware that I can’t check the wall thickness, or for delamination or voids, but the above gives me some confidence that care has been taken and or QC has been applied.

but don’t most carbon frames have a metal insert for the bb to press into?

None of my pf Scott frames have. They did for threaded BB’s though.

The notion that you have one factory making ‘good’ frames and ‘bad’ frames side-by-side in the same factory is laughable – it’s the kind up rubbish made up by bike brands PR departments and lapped-up by bike mag hacks seeking advertising revenue.

I don’t think your view of it is any more representative either though, with respect. Not saying I know any better though. I’ve had some good and bad experience with carbon factories, but there are 100s of factories making these things and it’s a process with so much room for error. Would I buy or ride an unknown-source carbon bar, frame or fork? No, not at any speed or level of commitment.

@Daffy, apologies for any patronising you could read into my reply about failures – you’ll have more experience than me. Or maybe not, since carbon things break in the bike world far more often than they do in aerospace! One I expect has really stringent QC, the other is too often driven by price eg these £120 Airwolf frames.

Anyone else worried about the vast number of carbon products that are being produced that can’t be recycled? Most of the failures are dumped into landfill.

At least metal is recycled.

Just my ten pence.

Given the choice of an unbranded carbon frame or a cheap but slightly more expensive carbon frame from planet x, ribble, merlin, crc etc with warranty, replacement and insurance and a British standard certificate I’m not sure why you’d consider it?

I’d rather have an decent alloy frame than a cheap unbranded untested carbon frame.

I had an Ican Cx frame for about 7 months. I had a altercation with a car which resulted in the bike basically doing the best impression of an accordion I’ve ever seen – snapped both top and bottom tube, one seatstay and one chainstay. Now, I’ve no imperical evidence a better bike would have fared better but it was t a big crash and this thing disintegrated.

I’ve seen high end evil and Santa Cruze frames fail, I seen cheap carbon frames not have any issues (as well as some that do). For me personally buy the best you can with the best warranty available. If the worst should happen at least you can get a replacement.

Hi I have that Frame I got it in February and it’s been great,the only crap bit is the gear and rear brake hose rattle inside the frame,for the BB I used one of these https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/mobile/sram-pressfit-30-to-bsa-adaptor-kit/rp-prod71306?gs=1&sku=sku271762&istCompanyId=8d42cf00-fc35-44ce-8770-97ae3ffd4c16&istFeedId=c759ee22-6d7f-4501-bd00-f1af47c60490&istItemId=iwxtwaaai&istBid=t&pgrid=60711843258&ptaid=pla-425608046094&utm_source=google&utm_term=&utm_campaign=PLA+All+Products&utm_medium=base&utm_content=mkwid%7CskAPE1iDb_dm%7Cpcrid%7C309840119912%7Cpkw%7C%7Cpmt%7C%7Cprd%7C271762UK&gclid=CjwKCAjwiOv7BRBREiwAXHbv3H3b4EHUaM0t4siTXFmZQU_JxX4GZZxgxOXlmHW8a5W8XVIchmGJFxoCqJEQAvD_BwE

You can buy 6mm ID 14mm OD pipe insulation/ cladding to fix the rattle.

NZCol
Free Member

I had an Ican Cx frame for about 7 months. I had a altercation with a car which resulted in the bike basically doing the best impression of an accordion I’ve ever seen – snapped both top and bottom tube, one seatstay and one chainstay. Now, I’ve no imperical evidence a better bike would haven’t fared better but it was t a big crash and this thing disintegrated.

@nzcol – Unfortunately the more we optimise these things for running loads in order to get weight and cost down, the more likely they are to catastrophicly fail when they get a load outside that window. We face the same dilemma in aerospace…are we sure we have ALL of the possible loads?

@NZCol were the breaks on the frame clean? I concern I have is if for example the frame snapped cleanly at the head tube joint to the top and down tubes then you might be going OTB.

@intothehills curious how heavy you are / what sort of riding you do on it. I am 85 kg and pure CX. No jumps, nothing too steep or rough on the planned bike.

Same 85kg don’t do any jumps mainly xc stuff it’s been to Afan and the peaks been riding China frames for around 10 years never had any problems

Currently building up one of these https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33052451791.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.268b4c4dbbXdmW

Its my 2nd ican frame – the first been a xc hardtail which is still awsome and going strong for 5 years.

I would definatly buy a frame from a company and not some random re-branded thing

Currently building up one of these https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33052451791.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.268b4c4dbbXdmW

Its my 2nd ican frame – the first been a xc hardtail which is still awsome and going strong for 5 years.

I would definatly buy a frame from a company and not some random re-branded thing

Has that got full mudguard mounts? Looks like some kind of bolt holes by the rear dropouts but the pictures don’t show what’s at the top.

I’ve got a Cannondale Caad12 and I find having to use clip on mudguards a bit of a pain. Only issue is whether my crankset would swap into something like this or not. Weight is probably a touch lighter than my Caad12 too.

Plus did you have to pay import duty on top of the price quoted for the frame and shipping?

Sorry to derail the thread slightly!

I had to pay about £30 for import duty – i ordered it in july and it turned up 2 weeks ago 🙁

Yes it has bolt holes by the rear drop outs and a bolt hole by the bottom bracket / and top bridge as well for a full mud guard.

So far i’m building it up and it should be under 8kg for the full bike.
Its got a pair of light bicycle ar24 carbon wheels on it.

Its a standard BB92 push fit bottom bracket – and on aliexpress you can get BB92 to BB30 convertor bottom brackets. I have one in a MTB and its OK. Although it now has enduro bearings in it, but they are easy enough to get hold of

Some pictures of the holes

https://1drv.ms/u/s!ApWxLFzQYaHZgP9UEouIxcBk-BmbYQ?e=s9nqdd

Thanks! Something to think about definitely. Selling my Caad12 frame and forks would probably cover a good chunk of the cost of a new frame I’d have thought. Just have to have a think about bb92 to bb30a. I think the ‘a’ means the bb shell is 5mm wider on one side on Cannondales – just don’t know if that means the cranks are correspondingly wider or whether it just means less spacers.

this is the BB i got and is currently in an xc hardtail frame ( ican one as well )

The bearings were OK – a little rough but no more than i expected.. The enduro bearings which cost a fortune are really smooth.
although they have only been riden a little bit – so can’t comment on durability

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32882606623.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.31c963d5teId5j&algo_pvid=d49bb1f1-bc1a-4a07-b6e2-6b0b85a86cff&algo_expid=d49bb1f1-bc1a-4a07-b6e2-6b0b85a86cff-0&btsid=0b0a01f816021506380131214e18c1&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

For those talking about cost versus performance in a crash this is what happens to a ca.£3000 frameset when it experiences a heavy side loading.

The Carbon was pulled apart as it broke and the strands of weave clearly visible. Also inside were the remnants of the bag used to inflate during manufacturing.

wow – did you walk away from that?

No.

Mine’s arrived. Took an age to get out of the packaging but no damage. Looks OK so far, paint/lacquer good, 1200g on my scales with the rear axle, hanger, seatclamp installed. Probably be a couple of weeks till I can get it built up.

Looks good. I reckon that’ll give you years of service no issue 👌🏻

Indeed looks very good. I ended up buying a 2nd hand 2020 Highball.