A truly sad day for British society…

f you want things to change at the next election engaging with people is more likely to get them to change than haranguing them for their selfish view point.

Is anyone interested in trying to change your or Jambalaya’s voting practices?

there will be many diasable people who get far too much and only have themselves to blame for their situation

Will there?

Reading the above it’s no wonder the bullish majority stay silent, the personal bile being vented here is outright bullying of people with different political views and that’s what we’re talking about, different political view points not absolute rights and wrongs.

Umm, no, we’re not. We’re talking about 2 things: fairness and truthfulness. IMO those don’t fall into the park of “different political opinion”, they are just basic human values.

The whole thing was just a suggestion according to newsnight.?

The sad thing is that the outrage over Osborne’s Sherrif of Nottingham budget has distracted from the damage that’s being wrought upon the education system, ignored the housing crisis and misses the larger picture of his user failure to meet the targets he set himself and his disastrous record as a Chancellor (in fact the last 6 years of Tory government failure)

One thing is clear,from my view on society as a GP whose patients are in the 20% most deprived in the country. (Index of multiple deprivations, ONS)

The government is more interested in solving the problems of the wealthy than the problems of the poor.

We are one of the richest countries in the world, yet there is a 15 year difference in life expectancy between the haves and have nots. The difference in disability-free life expectancy is even greater at 20 years. NHS funding is allocated mostly based on age alone, which further widens the gap. Everyone’s health and life expectancy is improving, but the gradient between the rich and poor remains.

As austerity is a political decision so is health inequality.

Health inequality is wealth inequality, pure and simple.

The trickle down effect does not exist.

For those in work,it is people in low paid low status jobs who suffer most work related stress and illness due to the disparity between demand and control, the disparity between effort and reward, precariousness of employment and institutional injustice. Executive stress is a myth.

So when someone who is able to make a decision about which continent to base themselves in according to the tax rules of various different countries says that poor people would be better off voting Tory, I am amazed quite frankly.

The society we live in in this country is inherently unjust and becoming more so.

I think some of you are confused about what disabled means.

there will be many diasable people who get far too much and only have themselves to blame for their situation

Please give me an example of a disabled person who only has themself to blame for being disabled.

You don’t get disability benefit for pretending to have a bad back. I very much doubt you have any first hand experience of what it is like to be disabled or to have to go through the PIP assessments process and subsequent appeal.
Bleating on about how you pay tax while our government attacks vulnerable people like this makes me feel sick.
What you see as hand-outs pays for carers, wheelchairs, sensory equipment, adapted cars, placements in care homes, medical equipment not available on the NHS, home adaptations and basically everything a disabled person might need in order to be able to live on a slightly more level playing field.
The fact that the government is reducing points based on toileting and dressing (probably the two most universal areas of difficulty) proves the lie. They are not going after scroungers, they are going after all disabled people.
And some of you think this is OK, but paying taxes you can afford to pay is not.
Bunch of shits.

This government plans tax cuts for top rate payers. This government plans to cut benefits for disabled people. This government’s priorities are wrong.

Tax rate cut from 50% moved to a job less focused on pay via PAYE – however with the benefit of hindsight I should have stayed put, ex colleagues who did so are far better off.

Weirdly enough jambalaya there are some people who consider other factors in life than how much money they get to keep for themselves. The country would be a better place if such greedy people would put their money where their mouth is and bugger off. The sooner we stop relying on the parasitic ‘financial services’ industry the better.

And sorry stumpyjon if you think it’s ‘bullying’ but some people feel passionately about things like thousands of disabled people having their lives made significantly more difficult while giving tax cuts to the wealthy.

This thread just shows that the only people who support this government are the terminally selfish.

Selfish people in ‘not liking being called selfish’ shocker.

How much somebody with disabilities needs to live is subjective (and personally I genuinely have no idea as I don’t have direct experience of it)

Yet it doesn’t stop you loftily pontificating on the subject?

Allow me to enlighten you, princess. And this comes from direct experience of a local charity for the disabled, a lot with serious mental health issues, and very real specific needs. Mrs Binners was a fundraiser for them.

These people haven’t manufactured some perceived disability. These are people unable to cope with day to dy tasks without help and support. As local authorities funding has been decimated. This falls increasingly to charities to pick up the slack. Their underpaid staff, and vollunteers dedicate their lives to making these disabled peoples lives bearable.

And how do you think this is funded?

Go on… hazard a guess?

In large part by the PIPs that these people get. It funds the help and care they need. So what happens now that they plan to abolish it? Who’s going to provide the services these people need?

No…. me neither.

I’ve heard PIP referred to, by the government, as a system providing things like handrails being installed, or adopted baths. And so it can be replaced by a one off payment instead of the ongoing PIP.

This is just lies. Pure and simple

That a bit clearer to you now buttercup?

The shutting down of Remploy will be seen in years to come as one of the most appalling acts ever carried out by a government.

We’re all in this together binners. Never forget that. We all have to make sacrifices for the common good.

The disabled have to accept significant reductions to their quality of life and the rich, erm… well – inheritance tax is such a bore isn’t it?

For the record I am a higher rate tax payer and my eyes do water every time I see the gross amount of tax I pay and the percentage of my earnings that I lose.

Why? Just why? Why even look at that line on your payslip? You look at that and think ‘wow, that’s a lot, I wish I had that’. How is that anything other than greed?

As for those who complain about value for money – do you have any concept of how much a country really costs to run? So how do you know if it’s really value for money or not?

The shutting down of Remploy will be seen in years to come as one of the most appalling acts ever carried out by a government.

This plus 1000.

For the record I am a higher rate tax payer and my eyes do water every time I see the gross amount of tax I pay and the percentage of my earnings that I lose.

I often think it’s quite low, given everything I get for free: Education, Health service, Roads, Police, Legal system. I could never have made it to where I am today without all these great public services, so I’m quite happy to pay for them. In fact I’d be dead, as I’ve been told my heart stopped when I was born, so only thanks to the NHS am I actually alive and get to pay tax…

And sorry stumpyjon if you think it’s ‘bullying’ but some people feel passionately about things like thousands of disabled people having their lives made significantly more difficult while giving tax cuts to the wealthy.

I think you are (perhaps purposely?) missing stumpyjon’s point – which was to state that such aggressive overtones in your argument do nothing to bridge the perceived gap.
It is important to take on board and consider other policital viewpoints – not hold on to an ideaology and vehemently defend it. It all boils to to subjectiveness.
On paper, I mean, literally writing ‘tories take from the poor and give to their rich friends’ – Yes, that would suggest disgust is required.
However, the reality of what is written is quite probably something else. I would imagine that the angriest responders are probably not willing to consider this though.

If you want things to change at the next election engaging with people is more likely to get them to change than haranguing them for their selfish view point.

This sums it up fairly well.

I would honestly say that having been a pretty constant member of STW for the last few years I have read with interest many general threads and many political threads and as a result I honestly do feel slightly more rounded in my views, which is a good thing(?). Heck, I changed my vote for the first time in my life at the last general election!.

However, there does seem to be an extremely aggressive overtone that spills over anytime someone suggests support for a view that may challenge the left.
Fair enough, you are passionate about your views – but without the engagement mentioned above you are just likely to keep adding to this silent majority. Stumpyjon made some good points but instead you seem to want to riducule him – I don’t think that is a balanced approach.

EAT THE RICH

slimjim78 – Member
Stumpyjon made some good points but instead you seem to want to riducule him

Possibly, but whether he did or didn’t, he definitely did say

there will be many diasable people who get far too much and only have themselves to blame for their situation

, which is quite an inflammatory thing to hear for anyone who, like I and clearly many people engaging on this thread, knows one or many disabled people directly exposed to the brunt of the cuts in question.

Granted – i think that particular line was particularly badly worded.

I ‘think’, or at least my initial interpretation was that there are many claimants suffering side effects of alcoholism, diabetes, smoking, drug abuse etc etc – that have made essentially poor lifestyle choices that could have been avoided. And we should perhaps make the distiction clearer between those possibly abusing the benefit system (too stressed to work?) and those genuinely in need.

as he did say – the lines drawn are a very grey area.

I and clearly many people engaging on this thread, knows one or many disabled people directly exposed to the brunt of the cuts in question.

If the cuts do go ahead – I would be gutted to see further suffering to the genuine needy. The points scoring system, I would imagine, was an attempt at making a fair assessment of someones physical ability in relation to thier disability.
Perhaps the end result of the scoring system is way off the mark.

For the record I am a higher rate tax payer and my eyes do water every time I see the gross amount of tax I pay and the percentage of my earnings that I lose.

You only pay higher-rate tax on income nearly double the national average. And you get higher-rate tax relief on your pension. And reduced NI contributions. You also pay VAT, council tax, fuel duty etc at the same rate as everyone else.

Edited to add: http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/theeffectsoftaxesandbenefitsonhouseholdincome/2015-06-29/pdf

Table 1 shows that the poorest quintile pays a higher percentage of income in tax than the richest quintile.

I don’t think the aggression is confined to the left slimjim78. Perhaps the vehemence of some replies on this thread is due to the stark juxtaposition of tax cuts for top rate payers and benefit cuts for disabled people. That’s the reality of this government. I suspect that Boris Johnson would support both these measures but right now he’s keeping quiet because Osborne has done his Robin Hood in reverse act robbing the poor to pay for the well off. Prime Minister Johnson anyone?

I ‘think’, or at least my initial interpretation was that there are many claimants suffering side effects of alcoholism, diabetes, smoking, drug abuse etc etc – that have made essentially poor lifestyle choices that could have been avoided. And we should perhaps make the distiction clearer between those possibly abusing the benefit system (too stressed to work?) and those genuinely in need.

You accuse other people of being nasty but the number of mean-spirited, judgmental assumptions just in that little bit is quite astonishing.

Why? Just why? Why even look at that line on your payslip? You look at that and think ‘wow, that’s a lot, I wish I had that’. How is that anything other than greed?

I pay very close attention to all the numbers on my payslip; I even understand what most of them mean. Quite why anyone wouldn’t is beyond me as it informs quite a lot of other decisions.

Blaming disability benefits claimants for being in a position to have to claim said benefits is really missing the point massively.
Most of an individual’s advantage or disadvantage in life, in both social and health terms is bestowed on them before they leave school, much of it is fixed before they are born.
Suggesting that people should just bloody well get themselves out of this pickle by trying harder is typical of what those with all the advantage would say of those with all the disadvantage.
When people look at someone else’s lifestyle decisions it is important to consider what choices they have and how easy it is for them to change their behaviour.
Imagine a single mum in a tower block with three kids under 5 and a retired gent in his mortgage paid house in the village. Both smoke. Both would benefit from stopping. Who would find it easier to stop? Who would find it easier to access services to help them stop? Who would the services be offered to? Who would be the most “efficient ” user of resources? The low hanging fruit for the target driven smoking cessation service to help with most chance of success?
So the person in greatest need is least likely to get help because it’s harder to help them, and their social and health and economic disadvantage continues to grow.
The welfare state is seen by the right as just a cost, a drain on the economy.
It’s not, it’s an investment in the future of society and in humanity.
Why do we spend money educating our kids? Just for the sake of it? Or so that there will be an overall benefit to society.
The welfare state is being dismantled as we speak and society will be worse because of it in the future.
So yeah, worry about how much tax you pay cos that money you save will have to help you in your old age when the state has given up on you.

I fail to see the problem. With the spendid reduction in CGT and higher rate tax surely now we can all afford to keep our disabled relatives in the attics of country houses/alms houses on our estates?

slimjim78

The points scoring system, I would imagine, was an attempt at making a fair assessment of someones physical ability in relation to thier disability.

No, that’s how it was described and how GO would like it to be viewed. The reality is that it is an incredibly transparent and cynical mechanism for cutting the amount being paid out without any consideration or dignity for the members of society in the firing line.

It is and always has been completely outcome driven, meaning that the people previously getting the benefits are now at the mercy of an arbitrary threshold they may or may not meet.

£30 per week cuts from the poorest and disabled BUT the Govt are after an 11% pay rise ….. we’re all in this together!!! Yea Right Gidion ya tax dodging Fop :/ multi millionaires telling the poor to accept less, Truly shameful 😡

Incidentally my Dads had three strokes, got angina, arthritis, type 1 diabetes, vascular dementia and bowel cancer. Deemed ineligible for PIPS, and my mum couldn’t even get carers allowance, won on appeal but the process took 18 months and nearly pushed my mum over the edge, thankfully now both OAPs and as such out of the worst of it. The system’s a **** disgrace as it is never mind what these pricks are planning for it.

What I really can not get my head around is the assessment companies (whatever they’re called) and the apparent ‘incentivisation’ that exists for assessors to refuse funding. Have even heard of an assessor fabricate an applicant’s replies when said applicant was bed bound.

Utterly morally repugnant. 😐

Sorry to hear that thestabiliser

Incidentally my Dads had three strokes, got angina, arthritis, type 1 diabetes, vascular dementia and bowel cancer. Deemed ineligible for PIPS, and my mum couldn’t even get carers allowance, won on appeal but the process took 18 months and nearly pushed my mum over the edge

Anyone going to ask whether there were some lifestyle factors involved which would mean that making his life a misery was somehow justified? Thought not, cos that would make you a bit of a….

Well that was pretty predictable.

Maybe my statement that a lot of people receiving disability support only have themselves to blame was pretty blunt but as slimjim pointed out there are many avoidable was of becoming disabled.

You know what I can’t even be bothered, you’re all right anyone earning more than average doesn’t deserve it and everyone with a health issue is an innocent ground under the jack boot of the better off, lets keep it nice and black and white so we don’t have to think too hard about the genuinely difficult issues in society. While we’re at lets all assume because we believe something its an absolute truth (for the record there are some things that are fundamentally right like the speed of light, anything to do with morals and fairness is highly subjective). I’ll go back to being part of the silent bullish majority. No wonder people this country don’t like to engage.

The daily mash sums up those defending this:

We want their parking spaces too, say middle classes

Genetic testing for all, you know it makes sense.

The welfare state is being dismantled as we speak and society will be worse because of it in the future

If you look at the cost of welfare year on year you’d have to say its expanding

why even look at that line on your payslip

Why even look at a restaurant bill or a bar tab ? You look to see if you’ve been charged the correct amount and its absolutely justified to ask yourself whether that money which you have earnt is being spent wisely by the government

@grum I’ve posted dozens of times that at 40% max I think tax is reasonably fair. Above that combined with removing personal allowance, scalaing back pension allowances for private sector whilst state still enjoy gold plated pension – yup I think its too high and a disincentive to work in the UK. Outside investors likelwise make similar decisons.

You know what I can’t even be bothered, you’re all right anyone earning more than average doesn’t deserve it

Why even look at a restaurant bill or a bar tab ? You look to see if you’ve been charged the correct amount just half inch the tip on the way out.

FIFY

What an illuminating thread

According to a doc, there is no such thing as executive stress

Public services are free

And we have government full of truly evil people

And it’s greedy to want to understand how much ofyour income is taken by these nasty, greedy, evil folk who run our country ( pretty badly by all accounts)

Really is a sad day.

You know what I can’t even be bothered, you’re all right anyone earning more than average doesn’t deserve it and everyone with a health issue is an innocent ground under the jack boot of the better off, lets keep it nice and black and white so we don’t have to think too hard about the genuinely difficult issues in society. While we’re at lets all assume because we believe something its an absolute truth (for the record there are some things that are fundamentally right like the speed of light, anything to do with morals and fairness is highly subjective). I’ll go back to being part of the silent bullish majority. No wonder people this country don’t like to engage.

Toughen up princess. Seriously. It’s a shame you don’t have the confidence in your opinions/arguments to talk about them without flouncing when people disagree, but that’s no-one’s fault but your own.

Why call him princess other than to be rude? Is it a reference to sexuality in some way? Or is there a real point?

It’s an expression, no reference to sexuality intended. This kind of stuff is incredibly childish and illogically argued though:

You know what I can’t even be bothered, you’re all right anyone earning more than average doesn’t deserve it and everyone with a health issue is an innocent ground under the jack boot of the better off,

Not sure it really merits a serious response.

Your whole post:

What an illuminating thread

According to a doc, there is no such thing as executive stress

Public services are free

And we have government full of truly evil people

And it’s greedy to want to understand how much ofyour income is taken by these nasty, greedy, evil folk who run our country ( pretty badly by all accounts)

Really is a sad day.

Is there a real point?

I’ll go back to being part of the silent bullish majority.

What do you mean by “silent bullish majority”?

Weren’t you just complaining about being one of the minority that is actually a net contributor^ to the UK?

^ only fiscally, sugar