A religious question…

Can’t say I have ever had a religious group that’s tried to control me, force me to do something or offend me in any way that I can think of.

Probably because you are lucky enough to have been born in 21st C Western Europe, where religion’s influence is very much in decline.

Even my grandparents’ generation would have thought very differently to you and there are still vast swathes of the world, well documented places, where religious groups will tell you how to behave if you visit.

How about a belief purely based upon what a person feels? Are you saying that should be dismissed as bunkum?

A lot of people would say “yes” but what they means is “yes, but only when it conflicts with one of my own beliefs for which I hold no evidence for beyond my limited experience”. See the recent coffee thread, tupperware thread, this thread, Brexit thread…

Like why do you have coffee every morning? Did you investigate all other possible morning drinks and rigorously test them to arrive at coffee as the most superior drink? How did you determine the best way of making it? What criteria did you use to judge superiority – cost, taste, health etc?Nope, for most people me included we’ve just kind of stumbled there being blindly influended by something or other. But when it comes to religion we’re really sure we have it 100% nailed down.

How about a belief purely based upon what a person feels? Are you saying that should be dismissed as bunkum?

Well it’s belief, not proof.

if I had a friend who thought he was a toaster would I stick a slice of bread up his arse at breakfast time or would I give him a mirror and and Argos catalogue and leave him to work it out for himself?

You’re wasted here, you should be on telly with Dara.

In the interests of the scientific method and for completeness, I can confirm that the bread came out nicely browned but I’m not sure as I want to eat it.

when in reality you’ve just used your faith to sort your life out, kinda like a goddy placebo effect. God as a metaphor for some sort of inner reserve makes total sense here.

This is me. I have faith of a sort and attend church occasionally. However the engineer in me knows its a made up story which must have been re-translated multiple times over the centuries/millennia into what it is today. It must have started somewhere which is the proof part, but pinning down what that proof is…? I have no idea.

Back on topic: I was best man a number of years ago for a mate who was raised quite religious (CoE) and one of the main reasons for getting married was to get his end away. We tried to reason with him to at least live with the girl for a year (separate bedrooms of course) but couldn’t get through. He has now been (un-)happily married for over 10 year with 3 kids and has no life. Went from hanging out multiple times a week to counting the number of times I’ve seen him since marriage on one hand.
Not as extreme as OP’s situation but similar cause.

pmsl @ cougar.

Yeah. Bollocks to this, I’m off to Argos.

Also, some people are just potty.

Can’t say I have ever had a religious group that’s tried to control me, force me to do something or offend me in any way that I can think of.

I believe in dignity in death. I believe its a human right to chose the time and place of my death. Organised religous objections to this deny me this right. Thats them imposing their moral code on me. Thats a very personal and strongly held belief that I cannot exercise because of religious objections.

I will fight for the religious to be able to follow their beliefs at the end of their life even when it conflicts with my personal beliefs. Why will they not do me the same courtesy?

Religious opposition to dignity in dying causes huge human suffering and its something that I have intimate personal and professional experience of

Oh fiddlesticks – sucked back in. Sorry!

Can’t say I have ever had a religious group that’s tried to control me, force me to do something or offend me in any way that I can think of.

Never worked anywhere that shut down over Christmas?

Or been to the Isle of Lewis?

I believe in dignity in death. I believe its a human right to chose the time and place of my death. Organised religous objections to this deny me this right. Thats them imposing their moral code on me. Thats a very personal and strongly held belief that I cannot exercise because of religious objections.

I will fight for the religious to be able to follow their beliefs at the end of their life even when it conflicts with my personal beliefs. Why will they not do me the same courtesy?

tjagain – I wholeheartedly agree with your argument

I believe in dignity in death. I believe its a human right to chose the time and place of my death. Organised religous objections to this deny me this right. Thats them imposing their moral code on me. Thats a very personal and strongly held belief that I cannot exercise because of religious objections.

Again, confirmation bias. There are secular arguments against assisted dying.

Can’t say I have ever had a religious group that’s tried to control me, force me to do something or offend me in any way that I can think of.

Never worked anywhere that shut down over Christmas?

Or tried to marry more than one spouse?

Even my grandparents’ generation would have thought very differently to you and there are still vast swathes of the world, well documented places, where religious groups will tell you how to behave if you visit.

Yes but it’s not *because* of religion. It’s because they are conservative, they think they are right, and they think they are entitled to persuade you to think like they do. These traits are NOT at all limited to religious people, nor do all religious people demonstrate them.

The problem isn’t with religious people, the problem is with arseholes. Some of whom are religious.

Never worked anywhere that shut down over Christmas?

That’s a ridiculous argument. Christmas is a secular festival as well as a religious one. Same thing happens at Thanksgiving in the US, that’s not a religious festival.

Molgrips – I have looked into this topic in detail. there is almost a 100% correlation between religious belief and opposition to dignity in death. Trust me on this – a topic close to my heart and one I have looked at in detail. If you look into the folk objecting on supposed secular grounds they are almost all religious.

pm me if you want to know more

 I believe its a human right to chose the time and place of my death.

Secular objections include (but are not limited to)

Weakens respect for the sanctity of life

Values some lives more than others

Places doctors in a difficult position ethically

Places pressure on people at end of life

Difficult to regulate

Becomes a cost effective way of dealing with an increasingly elderly population

Ignores palliative care

Nickc =- pm me if you want to know more.

edit -You can make a secular argument yes ( it does not stand up) however if you look into the folk actually objecting you will find an almost 100% correlation between those who object adn those who hold religious beliefs – especially within the medical professions. A lot of them know that their religious objections are invalid ( to impose upon others) so try to hide behind a secular mask

Or tried to marry more than one spouse?

I believe it’s unlawful to marry even the one spouse. (-:

Secular objections include (but are not limited to)

… open to manipulation by relatives who may not have the patient’s best interests at heart.

There’s an interesting podcast from the Guardian on the topic of euthanasia.

The problem isn’t with religious people, the problem is with arseholes. Some of whom are religious.

I think you’re partially correct; there ARE arseholes everywhere. The problem with religion is that it confers legitimacy to some arseholes; their otherwise unreasonable positions are entrenched by the writings of long dead zealots, and it’s then held up as a legitimate argument to (for example) withdraw children from classes where gender and sexuality equality is being taught.

Hell, they even have the arrogance to call it the ‘Truth’ for goodness sake.

dignity in dying is not the same as euthanasia. There is a whole series of degrees of it with DNACPR at one end to active euthanasia at the other.

But as I said – if you want to discuss this topic with me PM me.

For those of you that are bang up for suicide, is it wrong to intervene if you are aware of someone else trying to commit suicide? Near where I live there is a cliff that folk like to jump off, several a year. If I see someone go up there looking a bit worried should I let them get on with it or intervene?

TJ, I suspect my views on euthanasia are broadly similar to yours. I don’t want to reach the point where being kept alive is not worth the poor quality of life. Millions and millions of us have probably sadly had some experience of it over the years with loved ones. And everyone’s personal experience will quite possibly influence their views.

However the arguments for and against it are a complex mix of ethical, moral and practical. The law, whether or not we agree with it, was made by parliament, not by any religious group. That decision will have been taken after listening to arguments both for and against, made by both religious and secular groups. As they are perfectly entitled to do. Everyone has the right to petition parliament if they feel strongly about an issue. And parliament has to weigh up the arguments and make a decision. I’d like to think the laws may change in future but that’s for another day.

Or are you suggesting that certain groups in society should not be allowed to put their views forward?

PM please

If you look into the folk objecting on supposed secular grounds they are almost all religious.

I said there IS a secular argument. Explained to me by a non-religious old person, and it’s a very good argument in my opinion. A brief Google brings up a load of hits for ‘secular arguments against assisted dying’, I haven’t got time to read many of them now. But the first article I read provided a second argument.

Also a quick warning – you are attempting to reinforce your point by appealing to your own self-proclaimed authority. This is fairly egregious as it assumes I know nothing and my thoughts are worth less than yours.

The problem with religion is that it confers legitimacy to some arseholes

This is a better argument worthy of discussion.

There’s an interesting podcast from the Guardian on the topic of euthanasia.

I’m not sure how interesting a podcast about some kid visiting China would be…

Nickc =- pm me if you want to know more.

You know, I won’t. Thanks though… Not because I don’t think it’d be worth it, but as I used to volunteer for the Samaritains, I’ve had those same conversations a number of times and I don’t think there’s a one size fits all answer. I don’t disagree with the concept of dying with dignity, I don’t think anyone, (religious or not) , would argue with you, it’s just that it’s such a moving target that I don’t think there’s any easy answers, and to direct your anger solely at religious people (because many people have undignified deaths) is flawed

That’s a ridiculous argument. Christmas is a secular festival as well as a religious one. Same thing happens at Thanksgiving in the US, that’s not a religious festival.

I disagree. Granted the first link I looked at regarding Thanksgiving and religion was Wikipedia but, it stated that the festival had roots in religious services thanking for the fruit of labour that year, etc. Easter is another well know religious festival that has links to modern life. The secular aspects of these events would likely not exist if not for the religious activities they originate from.

The problem isn’t with religious people, the problem is with arseholes. Some of whom are religious.

👆 This. Majority of the problem is with people that understand half baked teaching then proceed to impose their own agenda due to power, greed etc calling themselves the one with legitimacy. I come from a region where such practice is so common we just yawn when they start to speak.

I think you’re partially correct; there ARE arseholes everywhere.

👆 and this.

Molgrips – I have looked into this topic in detail. there is almost a 100% correlation between religious belief and opposition to dignity in death.

Not answering for anyone but meself. I have no problem with TJ’s views even with my belief. Do as they wish coz that is their body/life. Actually, I rather let people do what they want so long as they don’t bother me or try to impose their belief on me.
As for dignity in death what is that? (I am referring to the moment a person stops breathing and dead, correct me if I am wrong) The dignity is for the living Not for the death. The death has no say whatsoever. The end. All the ceremony etc are for the living and how the remains are treated is irrelevant to the death but for the living. Why should the death care about the way their remains are treated. That is the logic.

For those of you that are bang up for suicide, is it wrong to intervene if you are aware of someone else trying to commit suicide?

Tricky this. Coming from a regional norm far away we normally not try to intervene much But I would ask them (the person trying to commit suicide) their reasons and logic. Then if they still wish to continue I would just tell the person to prepare well and not cause hassle to others. (the regional belief is that the “soul” of the person will remain at the point/spot of death for a while repeating their action over and over again until such time as they exhausted their natural “living” limit to life which they cut short with suicide and such soul are usually full of hatred, anger etc. The belief is that they are Not at peace and can hassle others around that area.)

Near where I live there is a cliff that folk like to jump off, several a year. If I see someone go up there looking a bit worried should I let them get on with it or intervene?

Just speak to them to find out their reasons for wanting to jump. If you have a solution you provide one otherwise just let them get on with it. Nothing much you can do because they have made up their mind.

However the arguments for and against it are a complex mix of ethical, moral and practical.

Nothing complex so long as that is the wish of the person and NOT a decision made for him/her directly or indirectly.

I don’t disagree with the concept of dying with dignity, I don’t think anyone, (religious or not) , would argue with you, it’s just that it’s such a moving target that I don’t think there’s any easy answers, and to direct your anger solely at religious people (because many people have undignified deaths) is flawed

I am not from the Abrahamic faith and in our belief you are responsible for your own action so do as you wish so long as you don’t blame or hassle others. Pre and post death.

P/s: My father used to wind up my mum (actually some form of silly arguments) by saying he would commit suicide in the house and in response my mum would tell him to do it somewhere else where she did not have to clean up; and she would cremate his remains and flash it down the toilet so that his “soul” would smell like poo forever …

Granted the first link I looked at regarding Thanksgiving and religion was Wikipedia but, it stated that the festival had roots in religious services thanking for the fruit of labour that year, etc

Right. It had its ROOTS as a religious festival 350 years ago, because they were puritans and everything they did was religious. But then that practice died out for a long time and it was revived in modern times in a bid to promote ‘American-ness’. And today, it is a secular festival.

Re the ‘religiousness’ of various festivals; you may as well argue the origins of chickens and eggs; the truth is complex and multi factorial, without solid evidence either way and therefore lends itself to being hijacked to ‘prove’ the point of either position.

Near where I live there is a cliff that folk like to jump off, several a year. If I see someone go up there looking a bit worried should I let them get on with it or intervene?

Just speak to them to find out their reasons for wanting to jump. If you have a solution you provide one otherwise just let them get on with it. Nothing much you can do because they have made up their mind.

Oh ya just to add a point. If you can talk a person out of committing suicide the merit is yours and saving a life means a very good merit for yourself. Being neutral i.e. just let it be, means you have not accumulated any negative or positive merit as in neutral. However, causing others to take their own life directly or indirectly with or without intention will accumulate negative merit. Directly will have severe consequences to yourself and your next generations to come. Indirectly will be less severe but still negative. For example, a person who prescribes the “cocktail” for a person to die will accumulate negative merits regardless, but their negative merits are over shadowed by other good merits they have done with others. In short, you are responsible for your own actions.

Have to say… whatever religious background Chewkw is from it sounds a hell of a lot more sensible and pragmatic than a lot of western Abrahamic religions.

Sounds a bit Buddhist. Chewkw that is.

Suicide isn’t the same as dignity in death. Speaking as someone who has (and still does) suffer with depression suicidal thoughts are not born from a stable mindset. Wanting to end it all because you are terminally ill, paralysed etc is a whole different ball game.

A discussion for a different thread though I think

Sounds a bit Buddhist. Chewkw that is.

Yes, it is my understanding of Buddhism and as my belief.

Speaking as someone who has (and still does) suffer with depression suicidal thoughts are not born from a stable mindset.

Sorry to hear about your condition. There is a distinction with people born into the situation and those that do not. The karmic consequences are different too. i.e. people who can or cannot be responsible for their own actions.

p/s: Do Not meditate with your condition if you do not have an expert with you.

accept that there is nothing you will be able to do that will likely change their position any time soon, then ask yourself do you want them potentially influencing other family members especially if they are preachy.

Utterly off topic this, but Buddhism has never really struck me as religion, more a philosophy or thought process. I’ve tried meditating before, but my mind is like a monkey on amphetamines!

Don’t need sympathy Chewkw, it’s just one of those things. My brain struggles to produce certain chemicals and the effects of this can be a right bastard to deal with 😀

accept that there is nothing you will be able to do that will likely change their position any time soon, then ask yourself do you want them potentially influencing other family members especially if they are preachy.

You (not you specifically but people in general) cannot change someone until you really understand their reasons or understand who they are. Even that does not mean you are right and they are wrong change to them. What if you have made the changes for them resulting in a worse outcome or even more suffering? You might feel good for yourself but others might feel worse than before.

Utterly off topic this, but Buddhism has never really struck me as religion, more a philosophy or thought process.

Yes, the definition is unclear hence the term middle path.

I’ve tried meditating before, but my mind is like a monkey on amphetamines!

Just be aware, easily said than done, that you mind get suck into something unwanted. The situation is different for all individuals. I was advised not to meditate and if I wish I could but only do so for 5 minutes maximum. I used to meditate long time ago for several hours everyday or whenever I could by myself … crikey, the amount of “weird stuff” I saw in my dreams after that was so real I stopped. Not scare but more like lazy but later realised after the advice that it was not very good …

My brain struggles to produce certain chemicals and the effects of this can be a right bastard to deal with 😀

That is the problem because the other “fellow” might “take over” your mind if not careful.

Majority of the problem is with people that understand half baked teaching then proceed to impose their own agenda due to power, greed etc calling themselves the one with legitimacy.

This is spot on.