Gunpowder AFAIK was one of those accidents, you’re right. They were fannying about trying to create the elixir of life or some shizzle when they suddenly realised it’d got a bit explody.

I always wonder who those “brave” souls were doing those “testing”. 🤔 “Hey you low ranking soldier go light the fuse and observe if something will happens … ” 😬

… it’s probably a pertinent time for this again.

Is he supposed to be funny? I have never found him funny at all. Ricky Gervais in his Golden Globe award hosting is funny.

That is very well put @Cougar. Couldn’t have said it even close to as well.

I’m not sure it is really. It’s just a lot of words not really going anywhere. It started well , at some point, I forget where, with the Abrahamic God and denying the existence of that. The rest of it… I confess to getting bored. Define God and not the creator of the frikking Universe because that’s a bit too two dimensional.

Not even three dimensions will really adequately be able to define whatever “God” is. Personally, I feel that @Tomd got pretty close way back up there ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️

Edit: Anyway, it doesn’t really matter because leaving aside the bollox and dogma of the religious doctrines, which let’s face it, are pretty easy to usurp and deny, actual “God”, we’ll that’s a personal thing, open to personal definition and acceptance or denial, whatever floats your jolly old boat. And for those who then, after having a new set of guidelines to perhaps follow, a good suggestion would be to search within, rather than without, if you really want to look.

Or not.

I know God does not exist. It’s fact.

You can’t say I’m wrong as that is my belief and you should therefore just believe me. That’s how it works isn’t it?

I self-id as one of Cougars unicorns.

That is very well put @Cougar.

With the best will in the world towards Cougar whom I like and respect – it was a little vague.

Firstly, he seems to automatically assume that the debate about God is the ‘Abrahamic’ i.e. Jehovah. This opens up two lines of reasoning – does the God from those traditions exist? Or is there some other kind of external agency acting on either us or the universe?

But these two things are not in fact incompatible. The scriptures we have were written by humans, so they are human feelings and thoughts. If there is an external agency then it could easily have been viewed as Jehovah by these people. Or, they could have imagined it all. Or, imagining it and being influenced by it could be the same.

But really – it’s called ‘faith’ for a reason.

Faith is belief without proof. this is irrational by definition.

There is no evidence for gods of any sort ever anywhere.

there does seem to be something in some people psyche that needs this belief in the supernatural.

the thing I find worst about religions is their desire to make me conform to their superstitions. Its a huge effect on the world and often a very malign one. Many folk do not realise just how pervasive that is and I find it extremely offensive to be told what I can and cannot do because of someone irrational superstitions. Catholic church and condoms in Africa for one very malign example. that has cost huge numbers of lives. Blood on their hands

I do not tell them how to live their lives. the arrogance that they can tell me how to live mine is totally abhorrent.

Back to the original OP…..

I would go out of my way to make sure the child is involved as much as possible, and really feels like part of the family. To hell (lol) with the flower/heart “wand”. This is a great opportunity to interact “normally” with the child, which will be what she needs for a while to come yet.

I would certainly be keeping a wary distance from the parents – nothing you can say/do will help them to take a step back, but they will probably be looking for ways in which you have offended them. Better to remain at a safe distance and maintain some semblance of a relationship, than try to engage with them and be cut off completely.

It’s just a lot of words not really going anywhere. It started well

Ah, irony.

Firstly, he seems to automatically assume that the debate about God is the ‘Abrahamic’ i.e. Jehovah.

I’m not assuming anything, rather I was replying to a very specific question. If you want a different answer then ask a different question.

We can debate the relative merits of Horus and Thor if you like, though I doubt my reasoning would change much.

But really – it’s called ‘faith’ for a reason.

No arguments there.

Back to the original OP…..

Ah yes, that’s probably a very good idea. Sorry if I derailed things. As I said, I was replying to a question.

the thing I find worst about religions is their desire to make me conform to their superstitions.

That’s far from universal behaviour of the religious. Your problem isn’t with religion, it’s with people who try to force their views on you. This is annoying regardless of wether the views are religious.

Can’t argue with that either.

Though, organised religion rather empowers those sorts of people, n’est-ce pas? Like, can you think of many non-religious / cultish situations where that would happen? (And I put brexit in the latter category.)

Though, organised religion rather empowers those sorts of people, n’est-ce pas?

Does it?

Are you talking specifically about Jehovah’s Witnesses?

You know – there are probably loads of people you know who are religious but they never mention it so you never find out.

Op,

I am really interested in finding out their reasons for the flower/heart “wand”.

I am serious by the way.

Does it?

Does it not?

Are you talking specifically about Jehovah’s Witnesses?

I’m far from talking specifically at all, rather the opposite. Variations on “do what we say and you’ll get an eternal reward, disobey and you’ll be condemned to torment” have historically been staples of many organised religions since Zeus was in short pants.

If I had my Dick Mode hat on I’d be asking you what you had against JWs to make that assumption… (-:

No molgrips – its pretty much a part and a large part of many religions. Catholics with blood on their hands over condoms and aids. Religious right attempting to row back on abortion and birth control, people using their “religion” in allsorts of ways to attempt to control others.

I cannot think of any secular group who do this – and its pervasive with the organised religions. Its so pervasive it becomes normalised. the only one I know of that forbids this is Sikhism. Maybe Buddism as well?

anyway – enough derailing and this discussion never goes anywhere good

anyway – enough derailing and this discussion never goes anywhere good

Yep. 4 pages and it’s back to the same old.  In fact it was fairly close to being there by page 2

Op – Are the kids attending a normal school or home schooled? Sounds like they need some balance in their lives and hopefully they can get this at school. Their situation at home doesn’t sound healthy at all.

Funkmasterp, they are attending a local school, however they are taken out of any lesson that goes against their beliefs. She is down as a ‘hard parent’ by the school due to this. Apparently the older boy bit a class mate after said class mate apparently took the Lords name in vein. He is 7.
If their beliefs are so strong, then why can’t they engage with other topics? I find it wrong to be completely dismissive of anything that doesn’t conform to their held beliefs.

I cannot think of any secular group who do this – and its pervasive with the organised religions. Its so pervasive it becomes normalised. the only one I know of that forbids this is Sikhism. Maybe Buddism as well?

Current obvious elephant in the room is the Chinese Communist Party. I believe Marx and Lenin were quite clear on religion but it hasn’t stopped all kinds of murderous controlling backwards crap.

I’m slightly confused by the magic thing, presumably ‘miracles’ are okay though?

I cannot think of any secular group who do this – and its pervasive with the organised religions. Its so pervasive it becomes normalised. the only one I know of that forbids this is Sikhism. Maybe Buddism as well?

Current obvious elephant in the room is the Chinese Communist Party. I believe Marx and Lenin were quite clear on religion but it hasn’t stopped all kinds of murderous controlling backwards crap.

It seems to me that it is more related to extreme viewpoints or beliefs, religious or otherwise. Any system be it religious, political or even movie fandom has extremes that aren’t healthy or just outright dangerous.

Member

Tomd
One of these proofs please

Kant’s moral argument for the assumption of the existence of God.

Another interesting one is Kierkegaard who is paradoxically a Christian that believes in God but makes a fantastic reasoned argument about why trying to prove Gods existence is a waste of time.

I think what you’re really asking for is a scientific proof of god, and there isn’t one but that assumes that’s the only proof and indeed that a proof is necessary or possible.

Sadly it isn’t black/white. There are some brilliant modern atheist philosophers who I’m more inclined towards than the alternatives.

Funkmasterp, they are attending a local school, however they are taken out of any lesson that goes against their beliefs. She is down as a ‘hard parent’ by the school due to this. Apparently the older boy bit a class mate after said class mate apparently took the Lords name in vein. He is 7.
If their beliefs are so strong, then why can’t they engage with other topics? I find it wrong to be completely dismissive of anything that doesn’t conform to their held beliefs.

At least they are getting some influence outside of their home. What’s happening to the kids is the real tragedy here.

they are taken out of any lesson that goes against their beliefs.

sounds like the social services should get involved. Kids have a constitutional right to an education and parents can’t decide what they are and are not taught. The parent also has a legal responsibility to ensure the child attends. The only thing you can opt out of IIRC is anything religious.

tomd – non of those are proofs and yes – a scientific proof is the only sort of proof. What other sort of proof is there

Funkmaster – Nope – its not just extreme views unless you consider the catholic church extreme or the COE

However – thread drift into areas that never ends well.

@cougar
Herbalife, Juiceplus…

I see a lot of similarities between religious zealots and MLM believers.

@the op…You could of course tell them that theyve barely scratched the surface…

The universe is a big place and certain souls choose to incarnate on this planet as a kind of ‘fast-track’ to developing their mental/ physical skills for use in future lives.

The real pros are the disabled/ mentally ill who have not only incarnated into this planets ‘psychic-forge’, but in doing so, help to keep our intersubjective reality ‘stitched’ together.

Maybe your over-zealous pals are trying to compensate for incarnating into humdrum and unchallenging lives, and displace their frustration onto their children. Or maybe their kids are more spiritually advanced and this foments jealousy in the parents.

They’re but spectators in a magical universe and should quit whining and just get on with putting food on the table, etc.

Yet, theyll deify nailing some guy, nailed to a cross. That process would only stand him/ her in good stead in some future live. (Toleration of pain, empathy, mental acuity, psychic powers?)

Likewise, there’s plenty plenty crackpots who torture children as being witches. All that’s doing is boosting their abilities in their next live…”such a magnificent centre-forward, it’s almost uncanny, etc”

How will the OP’s pals react to that!

Kant’s moral argument for the assumption of the existence of God.

As an atheist, I genuinely find Kant’s moral theory patronising and insulting.

I cannot think of any secular group who do this

The world is full of secular groups who either try and control how we live, or try to persuade us certain lifestyles are superior. And much of their advice is probably quite sound, as is much religious advice.

Political parties of all shades are the obvious ones, then environmental groups, health organisations, pressure groups……even mountain bike fora on occasions!!

Can’t say I have ever had a religious group that’s tried to control me, force me to do something or offend me in any way that I can think of. Plenty I have disagreed with, but the same goes for all walks of life.

I’ve more contempt for the people who cancelled Futurama than any religion.

I kind of admire your absolute certainty on things like this TJ. It’s funny though that often people who state that the the scientific method is superior to everything don’t actually follow that method for almost all the decisions they make.

The world is full of secular groups who either try and control how we live, or try to persuade us certain lifestyles are superior.

Correct.

TJ’s argument is flawed because he is conflating the attempts to control people’s lives and religion. There are many religious groups who don’t want to control people’s lives, and many secular groups who do. In fact, any campaigning group is attempting to ‘control’ your life to the same extent, including humanitarian or environmental pressure groups. They are trying to tell us what to do, because they think they are onto something important. I happen to agree with some of them, of course. Then there are groups like US (or indeed any country’s) conservatives, who want us all to feel the way they do. The fact that most of them they are religious cannot be identified as a causal link. And of course there are the conspiracy theorists.

You are demonstrating confirmation bias – ignoring the things that don’t fit your hypothesis.

a scientific proof is the only sort of proof. What other sort of proof is there

How about a belief purely based upon what a person feels? Are you saying that should be dismissed as bunkum?

OK

I do not want to really continue this discussion but a lot of the religious interference in secular life becomes normalised and hidden as a result

The main ones are the Catholic church and condoms to prevent aids and the COE ( and other religious groups) with its attacks on anyone who promotes dignity in dying along with the open homophobia from religious groups

These things have caused immense suffering and huge numbers of deaths. Its something I deal with every working day and it is abhorrent
~The link on all these is obvious and well proven in the harm it does – and yes it is religious groups often dressed up as other things.

Want to continue the discussion? PMs please

@tjagain. This I absolutely agree with you on.

Agree with you TJ.

Funkmaster – Nope – its not just extreme views unless you consider the catholic church extreme or the COE

I actually would consider the Catholic Church to be on the brink of extreme. Then again there will be moderate catholics who ignore the extreme element. Just like you have people who will go watch Star Wars and enjoy a good old brain dead action film and people who will threaten the director because it doesn’t meet their personal vision.

Probably not the best analogy.

Teej is correct.

Molgrips, KennyP, There’s a massive difference between the secular groups and organisations that you mention (even the ones I/we don’t agree with) and religious groups. The religious groups justify their attempts to influence on elaborate make believe, and call it faith. Even the NRA (as a not (specifically at least) religious group whom I find the aims of abhorrent) use reasoning and dodgy statistics to get their own way. Religion is far more opaque and sinister. The fact that most are fairly benign does not excuse the fact that they are basing their position on fallacies.

These things have caused immense suffering and huge numbers of deaths.

I suspect far fewer deaths than “secular” organisations such as tobacco companies, breweries, fast food manufacturers, gun lobbies etc etc.

The religious groups justify their attempts to influence on elaborate make believe, and call it faith.

Whereas the groups I mentioned above often just downright lie.

Whereas the groups I mentioned above often just downright lie.

Ah, but they do it for profit, not prophet.

I don’t like either motive particularly, but the profit motive is at least transparent.