7Mesh Skypilot Jacket review

7Mesh describe its Skypilot as a “flawless wind and waterproof jacket for every adventure”. After 24 months of testing, Sanny is not so sure and ponde …

By sanny

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7Mesh Skypilot Jacket review

I use the Revelation jacket for when I was up in the mountains. Doesn’t pack down much but is by far and away the best jacket I’ve ever used in high lakeland fells with a bike.

Fair play to 7 Mesh for having a conversation but really, shouldn’t a £400 jacket be capable of being all things to all men, er persons. At least those riding a mountain bike of some form.

@johnnystorm

Hard not to disagree. It is a lot of money for a jacket that is not what the marketing blurb claims it to be. Despite the flaws, I still like it and use it a lot though. For the price, I was hoping for perfection but did not get it. That does not mean it is not a jacket that meets its design parameters well.

Going forward, I believe the move to PFC free technology in favour of ePE fabrics is going to present a real difficulty for manufacturers and consumers. The old tech is likely to be a high point for breathability and performance. DWR coatings simply don’t perform as well as they used to. Their durability does not match the old long chain polymers. Wetting out is much more of an issue now. I have old jackets that outperform the latest models which was something that Ian at 7Mesh acknowledged was one of the downsides of the move away from forever chemicals.

Cheers

Sanny

I believe the move to PFC free technology in favour of ePE fabrics is going to present a real difficulty for manufacturers and consumers.

On this thread, there’s a link to an interesting podcast about the technicalities of waterproof jackets, their compromises and the future of PFC free treatments. Essentially the take home messages is that none of the claims of any manufacturer about breathability vs waterproofness really stand up to any close scrutiny, and their advice for keeping a jacket in as best condition post PFC treatments as possible is wash it frequently in mild soap (but clean the washing machine beforehand) reproof often – with a heat treatment.

@nickc

Thanks for that link. I am not an expert in the area although have done a decent amount of research into this as an interested amateur for the article I wrote. In my experience, on properly minging days when it is pouring for hours, Shakedry has proven to be the most effective at keeping me dry without feeling boil in the bag. The downside is that it is fragile and does not cope with abrasion. Warm and wet are the toughest conditions to operate in. Paclite for me is really poor at dealing with those. There is no wonder fabric but some are definitely better than others and good design has a key role to play too. My older Gore and eVent jackets outperform more recent versions as they do not require to be washed after every use. How much of this is due to the older long chain PFC DWR coating I do not know but sweat build up when a jacket stops beading and wets out seems to be the biggest challenge for me. Everything I have read and my own experience suggests that modern DWR needs much more frequent reapplication.

Cheers

Sanny

 

Wearing a £400 jacket, do you stop at every bramble or branch slightly hanging over trail and carefully inch around it? Would be way to paranoid of a rip or tear

Going forward, I believe the move to PFC free technology in favour of ePE fabrics is going to present a real difficulty for manufacturers and consumers. The old tech is likely to be a high point for breathability and performance.

I don’t know. The ePE membrane tech is Gores’ PFC-free membrane – it’s due to replace the ePTFE membrane in all their fabrics by winter 2025. I’ve been using one of Mountain Equipment’s ePE ore-Tex jackets for about a year now for walking/climbing etc, and subjectively, I’d say the breathability feels the same as the ePFTE one. That’s just standard Gore-Tex though and it may be that the technology used to produce the more breathable fabrics – Pro and Active mostly – doesn’t translate over. But it might. It depends on whether the techniques and construction nuances they use with ePTFE work as well with ePE.

The latest DWRs aren’t great. Apparently this is at least partly because they are less resistant to contamination with oils, creams, gunk off your skin etc. They are quite poor ime. However apparently there is a much better PFC-free DWR in the final stages of development. I think it’s part-owned, financed by Patagonia, but I may be making that up.

The ePE thing and the PFC-free DWRs are not the same thing, though to be fair, the same imperative to remove PFCs from treatments and production processes drives them both.

Fwiw, my take is that because of the uselessness of DWRs, you basically have a choice between being damp from the outside –  but not too hot and sweaty – in milder conditions and warm and damp from the inside, but dry from the outside in cooler, wet stuff. The latter is arguably preferable when things are proper cold, but not snowing. The former when it’s milder and just wet. The cross-over point is subjective and depends a bit on you as an individual.

I should maybe read the jacket review now…

Can’t help but think that someone in the market for a jacket would find this review, get halfway down and think “what a load of rubbish, I’ll look elsewhere” when in reality most of the negatives come from the wrong usage parameters or the broken adjusters. The article reads very negative and flips around in the middle – as you say, it works well for what it’s designed for. Maybe a disclaimer at the beginning to that effect, so as not to put off potential customers too much?

Though personally I was put off right at the beginning as soon as I saw the price 😉

Luv 7Mesh gear, but it is expensive and I have only purchased when they have a sale on. Their recent BF sale had their goods at (for me) more acceptable prices.

I saw a video recently (can’r remember the website) of a guy talking about waterproof jackets and the upshot seemed to me is that you can have waterproof clothing or eco friendly clothing that is waterproof for a short while, you cannot have both. This seems to be born out by the comments above.

I’ve got three bits of 7Mesh kit so I have to say I agree with the comments on the hood, it is a pain, but it is by far the best jacket I have ever had. With regard to @si_onthebounce I suppose you could do that and ride really slowly and get paranoid but I’ve always taken a view that kit is for using so mine does sometimes (will come back to that) have the odd bramble tear and gash BUT (intentionally big but) they sell a patch kit and have a fabulous (and in my experience) cheap repair service too.

Their customer care has been nothing short of awesome, even when I bought a 2nd hand pair of trousers on ebay that someone had cut off way to short they sorted me out such a good deal on a replacement it was a no brainer.

So if you want good kit, you have to pay I guess, but sale stuff and ebay helps but the ability to self repair and send off (as well as it being good kit) was the main seller for me.

Having said that I wish they would a) Sort the hood out and b) I had the new version with the straps to attach it to the bike 🙂

James

As an aside I remember the pitchforks being taken up when an STW review was postive about an alpkit waterproof because it said the price was good!

Why Buying a Lightweight Rain Jacket is More Confusing Than Ever

This makes for interesting reading when it comes to breathability. The new ePE Gore fabric seems to be less breathable than PTFE based fabrics. The former comes in at <13 while shakedry is <3. 13 is judged to be moderately breathable, uncomfortable during high physical activity while 6 – 12 is very breathable, comfortable during moderate physical activity and 0 – 6 is extremely breathable, comfortable during intense physical activity.

With ePE, it appears to fall between two parts of the scale. If it was very breathable, comfortable during moderate physical activity, I would have thought Gore would have explicitly said so. So basically somewhere between moderately and very breathable and somewhere between comfortable during moderate physical activity and uncomfortable during high physical activity.

Reading that, I am glad I got my Shakedry and Active jackets now instead of ePE based ones.

Any comments or experience, please feel free to contribute.

Cheers

Sanny

So, apart from MVTR/breathability tests being a can of worms all on their own – Gore once showed me a graph showing that the (then) new Active Gore-Tex was ‘more breathable’ in a particular test than a cotton tee-shirt, go fiigure- comparing the ePE fabric with Pro or Active is misleading because currently, ePE is just bog standard Gore-Tex, it hasn’t, as far as I know, been used to make Pro or Active variants of Gore-Tex.

The comparison they need to make is between standard ePE Gore-Tex and standard ePTFE Gore-Tex. The latter is also less breathable than Pro or Active, because Pro and Active have been engineered to be more breathable. In the case of Active, it’s to do with the way it’s laminated to the face and backer fabrics, I can’t remember what the mechanism used to produce Pro is.

The real question is whether Pro or Active fabrics made from ePE membrane Gore are less breathable than Pro or Active fabrics made with ePTFE. At the moment, afaik, no-one outside Gore knows. They may turn out to be, but they not. It depends how well the techniques they’ve used to engineer those fabrics translate over to the ePE membrane.

My experience with ePE is that it feels roughly on a par with ePTFE in the same bog standard, three-layer Gore-Tex form. Not as breathable as Pro or Active, but okay for walking use. It’s not something I’d use on a bike. A lot of the confusion is because ‘Gore-Tex’ isn’t just a single fabric, it’s a bunch of different ones using different technologies to create different properties, but Gore don’t explain this very well, so there’s an assumption that it’s all the same, which it isn’t.

Does that make sense? That article isn’t comparing apples with apples, ePE may result in a less breathable Gore-Tex Active, but as it doesn’t seem to exist yet in production form and Gore is one the world’s most secretive organisations after the CIA and the Free Masons, no-one actually knows yet.

ps: I spent around four days with Gore people when they unveiled standard ePE Gore-Tex in the outdoor market and they basically were incredibly coy about breathability. Which may mean they have challenges around the issue. Or may just be Gore being Gore.

You should go and see them and ask, seriously. They have a UK HQ in Livingston.

Despite the fact that I’ll always want to have a rain proof hard-shell jacket in my cycling wardrobe, I always just make a decision about what to wear depending on the activity rather than the weather. What I wear in heavy rain depends on whether I’m doing a longish easy Z2 type of ride or whether I’m doing a winch and plummet. Manufacturers claims about breathability aren’t even on my list of things I want for a jacket – anyone who does any sort of energetic activity in the sorts of wet/warm weather of most of the UK the whole year round  realises pretty quickly that you’ll need different outer-layers for different tasks.

@BadlyWiredDog

Great insight. You are absolutely right about there being no ePE equivalent of Active or Pro. As such, you can only make comparisons with what is available at the moment which is that there are ePTFE options that are measured as being more breathable. For the average punter, it is simply confusing. Until they come out with something more breathable, my stocking up on old tech doesn’t seem quite so daft – to me at least!

Cheers

Sanny

For the average punter, it is simply confusing.

@Sanny Yep, totally. I think a lot of that is the fault of the industry overpromising and underdelivering. Gore is actually really, really good at testing and developing dependably waterproof fabrics, which work pretty well in the laboratory, but they’ve been very bad at communicating the realistic limitations of their technologies and, in particular, explaining the differences between different types of Gore-Tex.

There’s a substantial difference, for example, between Pro – designed for full-on mountaineering use, decently breathable, very tough for its weight, noisy thanks to the woven backer – and Paclite, which has always been a lightweight ’emergency’ fabric intended for short-term use.

It doesn’t help that they keep changing the names and the tech, but basically most people who aren’t in the industry or fabric nerds quite reasonably assume that Gore-Tex is all pretty much the same, when it isn’t. To be fair, Gore is a fabric brand, not – apart from Gore Wear – a clothing one, so you can argue that it’s not really their responsibility.

Anyway, in a way, as long as DWRs are so poor, the real limitation in prolonged rain is wetting out, at which point everything else becomes a bit of a moot point and your choice boils down to being ‘warm wet’ or ‘cold wet’. ShakeDry was ace, but fragile – as I think you said – and Columbia’s OutDry works well, but could do with being more breathable.  Some of the engineered PU membranes like TNF FutureLight are really good, but again, depend on DWR to work.

But yeah, from a consumer point of view, stuff should just do what it says on the tin, without people needing to understand what goes on under the bonnet.

 

I’ve just binned yet another hard-shell waterproof, they just seem to fall apart having already failed at their main job of keeping me dry (from sweat & rain).

I guess though we all want the perfect jacket; waterproof, breathable, minimal size & weight and never tear…

@BadlyWiredDog

You hit the nail on the head. When I was speaking with Ian at 7Mesh (really interesting guy who took the time to talk with me about the jacket and the wider challenges of producing a waterproof jacket), he was open about the changing face of waterproof fabric technology and how the new ePE fabrics are still a bit of an unknown for manufacturers and consumers. Gore does indeed have the brand recognition but as we both know, modern DWR treatments do not perform to the same standard as that which we enjoyed previously. We have to wash and reproof our jackets much more frequently which brings its own challenges.

Also agree about Paclite. It really should be regarded as emergency use only. I have had two Paclite jackets that both delaminated, another which I stopped using as it was the most boil in the bag jacket that I have ever worn.

Cheers

Sanny

I only ever use my Paclite now for walking for which its generally fine for the sorts of mixed weather I might encounter, for riding; it’s totally unsuitable, but not that you’d be able to work that out from the marketing.

@BadlyWiredDog

Interested to know if you are in the industry as your knowledge is impressive.

As for Gore, I suspect we are at the stage of saying the new stuff does not appear to work as well as the old stuff at present. In the future, maybe it will, maybe it won’t. Even Ian at 7Mesh mooted the possibility that older tech may be the high point for breathability and waterproof performance and we may not get back to there for some time or even ever.

@intheborders

Interested to hear more of your experience of stuff falling apart. To be fair to Gore, they seem really good at dealing with product issues such as delamination.

@nickc

Completely agree about riding in Paclite. I simply don’t now.

Cheers

Sanny

@Sanny so whilst I know it’s not waterproof I’ve just ordered a Gore Spirit jacket at a bonkers cheap price ! The main reason is because it uses Gore Infinitum material , my mate has a Rapha jacket made with the same stuff and he’s not only been super impressed with the breathability but surprised just how water resistant it actually is . But he reckons it’s the new environmentally friendly material that needs much more regular reproofing? I thought it was the opposite IE before ” green” manufacturing, any idea ?

@Sanny so whilst I know it’s not waterproof I’ve just ordered a Gore Spirit jacket at a bonkers cheap price ! The main reason is because it uses Gore Infinitum material , my mate has a Rapha jacket made with the same stuff and he’s not only been super impressed with the breathability but surprised just how water resistant it actually is . But he reckons it’s the new environmentally friendly material that needs much more regular reproofing? I thought it was the opposite IE before ” green” manufacturing, any idea ?

@oldfart

In my experience, DWR these days is simply not as durable as previous versions. The Skypilot is ePTFE based so older tech but the DWR still requires much more frequent reapplication. I find the sprays are more effective than the wash in versions. Hope this helps?

Cheers

Sanny

@Sanny thanks for that , interesting you think the spray on works better, I’ve always washed kit in Nikwax so are all the sprays much of a muchness or have you got a favourite?

@oldfart

Grangers Performance Repel Plus is pretty darn good in my humble opinion. Not exactly a scientific test on my part but it seems to do a decent job.

Interested to know if you are in the industry as your knowledge is impressive.

Journo – it’s an occupational hazard…

whilst I know it’s not waterproof I’ve just ordered a Gore Spirit jacket at a bonkers cheap price ! The main reason is because it uses Gore Infinitum material , my mate has a Rapha jacket made with the same stuff and he’s not only been super impressed with the breathability but surprised just how water resistant it actually is . But he reckons it’s the new environmentally friendly material that needs much more regular reproofing? I thought it was the opposite IE before ” green” manufacturing, any idea ?

So… Infinium is what used to be – and is about to be again – Gore Windstopper. It’s basically the Gore-Tex ePTFE membrane, but without a PU smear that the fully waterproof membrane uses to protect it from contamination, which in turn causes a process called reverse osmosis, where water is pulled through from the outside. This happened on early Gore-Tex jackets, hence the PU smear.

The downside of the PU is that it decreases breathability, which is why Infinium/Windstopper is noticeably more breathable than full-on Gore-Tex. The fabric, at least when new, is funtionally waterproof. Generally though, seams aren’t taped, so it’s not sold as such. If you tape the seams, which Rapha has done I think, it’s more or less waterproof, but potentially may eventually do the reverse osmosis thing. I’m pretty sure the membrane will still be ePFTE, but the DWR treatment will be current FPC-free stuff, which just doesn’t work as well as the evil, planet-killing versions that have been phased out.

You may not have to reproof, simply washing with a soap-based cleaner and then gently heat treating may be enough to revive the existing DWR. The trouble is that even if you do reproof, the latest stuff doesn’t last well anyway 🙁  Thing ain’t what they used to be, guv, etc

@BadlyWiredDog

I bow to your superior knowledge and really appreciate you taking the time to comment. I guess at the end of the day we will all just make do with what is out there when it comes to buying waterproofs. Every product is a compromise – always has been and always will be. We live in a warm and wet country which is the greatest challenge for any waterproof to deal with. There will always be dampness from either inside or outside whatever make and model of jacket we chose to ride in. As long as I don’t feel like I am frozen to the very core or about to faint from overheating, most things can be dealt with….. or we could just only ride one dry days…….that would work!

Cheers

Sanny

I figure when it comes to waterproofs or not, you get the choice of being wet and warmish from the inside on cold days, which is arguably better than being wet and coldish from the outside. When it’s milder you can opt for something less water resistant and get wet but stay at a comfortable temperature. Or something like that. Soft shell stuff is actually sort of the answer a lot of the time, but you need to get your head round the idea that you can be less than totally waterproof, but still comfortable.

The Gore ‘Comfort Guys’ who really exist, honest, they test Gore stuff in the labs with sensors to see if it’s comfortable, say that ‘comfort is the absence of discomfort’, ie you shouldn’t really notice your clothing. But until clothing does AI to adapt to the conditions, there’s always an element of knowing / judging what’s going to work in particular conditions, and like you say, the UK is challenging because it’s relatively wet, but often not that cold. I try to remember that you can get properly hot and sweaty wearing minimal kit on most days, so expecting to be able to layer a waterproof on top and somehow stay cool and comfortable is a big ask.

Anyway, glad if any of this is useful, I find it weirdly fascinating in a geeky way, but often not that useful in the real world of riding around trying to stay comfortable. I think waterproof shell clothing probably needs some sort of left field, technical revolution, something that breathes like ShakeDry, doesn’t need DWR – also like ShakeDry – but is both light and relatively tough, so not very like ShakeDry at all. But mostly I think we probably need to reframe our idea of what ‘comfortable’ feels like on a bike and accept that some of the time, it’s not the same as dry, because dry ain’t happening any time soon afaiks 🙁