650b that is all.

A thread about wheel sizes turning into a bash fest, haven’t seen that before!

I have a feeling the single speed boys are upset!

Sweetheart, never heard a fellow singlespeeder complain about technology or wheelsize being pushed.

Those great Souls and Yetis have been deemed to be somehow so deficient that the fundamentals of their design is to be thrown out and a fresh round of development and evolution is to begin.

Mangatank, I’m not sure anyone’s saying the 26″ bikes are deficient. More that they’re about as good as they can be. For some, a bigger wheel (even just a bit bigger) is preferable, so there’s a development opportunity. If they turn out to be generally preferable, all the development of those great 26″ bikes will transfer across since 650B isn’t the step that 29″ was. If not, they’ll fail. It is wrong that some riders feel like they’re being experimented on, but really, no more so than buying crap geometry bikes of any wheel size that change each year because the brand didn’t do enough testing, or even outdated groupsets etc? Things change. We accept suspension variations, wheels look to be in a similar state soon.
Personally I’d prefer that we played around with the one thing that’s been fixed for almost 30yrs, rather than fk about with electronic gizmos everywhere or keep adding cogs at the rear every few years, but that’s just my take on it.

Just to be clear, I’m only interested in this from a rider’s pov as I like trying out new stuff as well as being set in my ways for what I like myself, the 2 need to balance somewhere; and I’m interested in it all from a riders + bike industry development and marketing etc viewpoint. I don’t believe in ‘better’ as a factual statement – things are too variable now.

29″ are faster than 26″, that’s obvious to anyone who can push a 26″ to the point that it’s trying to kill you.

Don’t talk wet.

Steep climbs,rough climbs,loose climbs,smooth climbs,technical climbs,fast open trails,slow tight trails,natural old school mountainbiking in the hills,trail centre riding,riding around Torridon,riding (especially climbing techy stuff getting into the Cairngorms) the list goes on. If you have owned or ridden 26″ & 29″ wheeled bikes and ridden them over all of the above terrain, you will find that both wheel sizes can enhance the ride depending on where you take it.

The give-away is that there just isn’t the sort of impiricle proof that 650b or 29 is actually superior in any measurable way-just different. Despite that, Specialized has gone all-in, together with the bulk of the big-volume US Manufacturers. It called ‘fixing the market’.

Look, bike innovation is great fun: The endless search for the perfect suspention solution has been fascinating, and the constant tweaking of frame geometry has led to some stuff I still can’t believe. Ejecting an entire format because it is suddenly deemed to be out-moded though? That’s something else. A 26 inch wheeled bike does all the things a larger sized wheel does, and in the key off-road areas of slow speed controll and accuracy, it does these things better. Soon however, the 26 format will be the preserve of the ‘weirdy beardy’ types on this forum. Admittedly, a lot of us thrive on that here, but something will be lost for the sake of mass market revenue generation.

I will say that 650b is in my top five wheel sizes.

Speak for yourself. 6 wheel sizes in regular use in my household, and not one of them is 650b.

Jesus, JCL talks some utter shite.

Wheel size is soooo last year, its all about fork rake and frame geometry now. Do keep up… 🙄

Er… IMHO 29ers mainly came to the market so that the industry could sell more stuff. Then 650b followed.
Anyway, this is all outdated already, 36ers are the future:

I remember when U brakes made cantilevers obsolete only to disappear within 18 months.
Elevated chainstays were a must have.
I can see a theme for a new thread especially if you include fashion disasters like disc wheels!

I remember when U brakes made cantilevers obsolete only to disappear within 18 months.
Elevated chainstays were a must have.

These things proove the point that in the end the bike buying public is in charge

Today I was flying over very terrain type imaginable on my Ti 456 (26er)’ and I thought, ‘what a truelly brilliant, agile, tactile bike. It’s a joy to ride.’

Somehow though, I appear to be completely wrong. The industry has realised that all the intense bike evolution of the last 20 years has been misguided and that every review that celebrates brilliant mtb design is fundamentally flawed. Those great Souls and Yetis have been deemed to be somehow so deficient that the fundamentals of their design is to be thrown out and a fresh round of development and evolution is to begin.
[

Thats not really fair on bike reviewers or representative of how things move forward. My camera was once state of the art with brilliant low light ability. Now its out classed by miles. It still takes great pictures but it doesn’t mean my next camera won’t do it better

Obviuosly the wheel size thing is driven by the bike makers. Just like FS we are being sold it via sponsored racers. It worked for FS which is well established, whether it works for a new wheel size is upto the people who buy the most bikes…

It’s down to uptake , and with the US bulk manufacturers going wholesale across to 29in wheels, that uptake will be guided by them, not us.

I’m a 29er complete convert and I was one of he biggest naysayers prior to really riding 29″.
If you’re tall enough then I see no reason not to adopt 29″ for trail riding.
of course it’s all personal preference. But 26″ for me feels wrong now. It stalls and stutters compared to 29″. 650b seems a bit daft really to me.

I haven’t read anywhere and don’t know if anyone has considered this (even the bike companies) but there is a considerable balance advantage to having larger wheels.

I could do with a diagram to explain this but can’t really be bothered to draw one right now so the googled image is the best I can manage below.

The height of a BB is somewhere around the 13-14″ mark off the floor on most mountain bike (and you can’t really go lower this due to pedal strikes) which is approximately the same height as the hub axles on a 26″ wheel.

When a wheel is spinning fast it has a gyroscopic affect and fights being tilted off its axis. If you are stood on a platform at the same height as this (BB height) then there is little to no mechanical self correction in balance.

However if you are stood on a platform beneath this axis then there is a mechanical assistance to remain upright.

If you look at an extreme version of this if you get a bent piece of wire and put weights on the end so that the centre of gravity is beneath the balance point it self corrects. See below.

However if you put it the other way up it is very unstable.

So with a bigger wheel you can have a BB that is 13″ off the floor but by raising the centre of the gyroscope (middle of the wheel) just slightly you can in theory make the bike far more stable when it breaks loose…. so should be easier to drift without the bike coming out from under you.

If you can’t get your head around that then think of this. If you glued a broom on a ball and then stand on it and try and balance holding on to the handle it is difficult and you can fall off. Yet if you stand on a childs swing and hold the chains you automatically return to upright even when pushed off kilter.

Having a BB below this gyroscopic centre is obviously not as dramatic as that example but it should have a measurable effect. Its also in my opinion why 26″ bikes with a 14.5″ high bb feel really unstable compared to ones with around 13″.

It’s also why if you have all your weight through an outside pedal that is lowered and the wheels break loose you tend to stay upright but if your pedals are flat the wheels sometimes have more of a tendency wash out from under you.

So basically if your feet are beneath the centre of that gyroscope it is more like standing on a swing under the bar but if you are above it than you are more like standing on top of something and balancing.

And for the record I ride 26″ wheels and have no desire whatsoever to spend money changing my bikes to a new standard but I do perceive there to be an advantage in the above which would come in to effect more at high speeds when the gyroscopic effect of the wheels is more pronounced.

I hope that makes sense as I’m sat here having just crawled out of bed with the mother of all hangovers and can’t be arsed to argue a point on this. I do have a degree in mechanical engineering if that adds any credibility to what I have just written though.

Paul

No one should be that lucid with a hang-over! Interesting post though. That certainly explains the common ‘in the bike’ feel reported by 29 testers.

That tall bike picture… I am actually in the background on a 1930s post office bike. It was a lovely clunker gathering at a cider farm near Ross on wye.

Chunkolini is on a 26″ tall bike, mrs Jarvis then rode this bomb hole on a 26″ full sus and broke her ankle at the bottom, didn’t even make it to the jump, howled like an injured whale.
(Really I am not making this up)

Conclusive proof that beards are more important than wheels.

Singlespeed_Shep – Member
I have a feeling the single speed boys are upset!
Sweetheart, never heard a fellow singlespeeder complain about technology or wheelsize being pushed.
POSTED 7 HOURS AGO #

Well that will simply be cos u singlespeed boys can’t ride hard enough to appreciate what a good set up is! And only ride singlespeed for the novelty of it trying to prove to full suss boys that u don’t need suspension…but really it gives u the excuse to ride so shit…I think u and simpleStu are the same troll yeah?? Am I right sweetie? 😆

Anyway.. Can we forget about all this nastiness towards each other?? It’s getting rather childish wouldn’t one say? And after all, we’re all lovers of two wheels aren’t we love?? 😀
Over and out, pussy. 🙂

JCL, I know you appreciate the geometry benefits a 29er can have. How about 12-15mm (up to 20mm) increase in BB drop compared to a 26″? 15mm variance on a 26″ felt worthwhile. Not worth changing bikes for, but maybe of interest to someone who likes a bigger wheel from experience on a 29″.
I see 650B as a tweaked 26″ – I like that bit extra but it’s certainly not the difference going between 26″ and 29″ makes.

Yep you’re right about the BB drop and they’ll definitely have advantages over 26″ from that. But is it enough to make it worth killing off 26″ and making everyones bikes obsolete? Imagine if you’ve just bought a S-Works Enduro 26″ and the model was canned next year for 650b.

Jesus, JCL talks some utter shite.

Don’t be a player hater.

26″ is dead IMHO unless your tiny or a small female………..such as Mrs TLR on her Juliana…..

What’s the benefit of going slower in less comfort if you can go faster in more control ?

I’m not really bothered which way the market goes – despite the haters’ paranoia the production of MTBs is not a cartel and the purchasing public control what is made, although there’s always a time lag between demand and production.

All the talk of greater stability through larger wheels tends to omit the converse of stability which is agility – and part of the agility puzzle is also feedback and thus control. So a bike with greater self-stabilisation only works up to a point. Beyond that point the rider struggles to both detect external forces and provide corrective forces of sufficient magnitude to stay in control.

I like big tyres on my 26er (27″ OD which is the same as 650b with more typical tyres), I’ve ridden with enough 29er riders to know they work on really twisty singletrack and I love riding my 20″ BMX and take it off-road frequently (a BMX on a rough bridleway feels like a 26″ hardtail in a rock garden!) My next MTB will most probably be a ~160mm 26er FS or a rigid singlespeed 29er…

Funny, I reckon 29 is just for giants. 26 is for the normal amongst us. I don’t think 650b will survive. 26 certainly will, I’m sure.

+1 to what wrecker said. 650B doesn’t help the tall ones and that is how the population is changing. Women and smaller guys (inc me) are well suited to 26. No need for 650 – not as good for rolling over the bumps not as quick to steer – just in the middle

No need for 650 – not as good for rolling over the bumps not as quick to steer – just in the middle

Or the other way round better for rolling over bumps quicker to steer.

Thats a bit glass half full or glass half empty

As a 6 footer, 650 should be the size I’m interested in, but I’m a bit “meh”. I’ve already tried a 29 and didn’t like it, I think they’re just fixing something which isn’t broken to generate sales.

Funny, I reckon 29 is just for giants. 26 is for the normal amongst us. I don’t think 650b will survive. 26 certainly will, I’m sure.

How is 26″ going to survive when you can only buy crap forks and rims/tyres? The writing is already on the wall. Scott have all but removed 26″ from the range. Norco, Rocky and soon Santa Cruz will do the same. Specialized and Giant are pushing 29″ as they don’t see growth in 26″.

Give it a year.

Over and out, pussy

I’m a bit dissapointed that you’ve not rolled out your other troll account so you can agree with yourself each other. 😐

On a semi serious note.
Your vids are great.
Maybe make a few more. 🙂

As long as there’s demand (and I don’t think I’m alone in not liking big wheels) there’ll be supply. They can “push” all they like, it’s just the industry big boys trying to push us around. The less faceless bike co’s will make what riders want.

As a 6 footer, 650 should be the size I’m interested in, but I’m a bit “meh”. I’ve already tried a 29 and didn’t like it, I think they’re just fixing something which isn’t broken to generate sales.

You’re totally correct regarding 650b.

A analogy is wanting to buy a current supercar with a clutch and manual shift. Even though people still want them the option has been removed from the market.

Unless there is mass takeup of the new wheel sizes over the next couple of years I can see considerable back tracking of the big manufacturers.
The other thing that could happen is that the smaller manufacturers don’t change and start challenging the bigger fish in the pond

The other thing that could happen is that the smaller manufacturers don’t change and start challenging the bigger fish in the pond

It was the small fish* that started the big wheels turning…

*With the help of one big fisher.

I see the point for 29 for XC racey type stuff and mahoosive peoples. For everything else, 26 is all we need.

singlespeedstu – Member
Over and out, pussy
I’m a bit dissapointed that you’ve not rolled out your other troll account so you can agree with yourself each other.
On a semi serious note.
Your vids are great.
Maybe make a few more.
POSTED 5 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

No, I don’t have anymore trolls but I’m sure yours will be along shortly ole shepy boy! 😉
I’m glad you liked my vids though…I feel honoured, thank you sir..

Ah, Harmony amongst the single speeds! It brings a tear to the eye;-)

Well that will simply be cos u singlespeed boys can’t ride hard enough to appreciate what a good set up is!

I’m not a middle class audi driver so can’t afford all the fancy gizmos.

but really it gives u the excuse to ride so shit…

I am shit at riding a bike, so bad you wouldn’t believe.

I think u and simpleStu are the same troll yeah?? Am I right sweetie?

No but I aspire to be him, one day I think I might make it.

Anyway.. Can we forget about all this nastiness towards each other??

I hadn’t been nasty at all, just flirty My Sweets. Trying to pull myself a richboy. 😉 XXX

You coming to Dorset?

I’m glad you liked my vids though…I feel honoured, thank you sir..

No i do really think they’re great.
Maybe stick to doing them at least they’re entertaining.

You and Fairhurst must spend hours doing them. 😉

A Whyte 29er with 650 wheels

what you can’t see is how the frame was butchered to fit them.

Singlespeed_Shep – Member
Well that will simply be cos u singlespeed boys can’t ride hard enough to appreciate what a good set up is!
I’m not a middle class audi driver so can’t afford all the fancy gizmos.
but really it gives u the excuse to ride so shit…

I am shit at riding a bike, so bad you wouldn’t believe.
I think u and simpleStu are the same troll yeah?? Am I right sweetie?

No but I aspire to be him, one day I think I might make it.
Anyway.. Can we forget about all this nastiness towards each other??

I hadn’t been nasty at all, just flirty My Sweets. Trying to pull myself a richboy. XXX
You coming to Dorset?
POSTED 34 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Aye ups! He’s here!! Ole shep has come to save the day! I would love to come down to Dorset, show you southerners how to ride a bike properly… Don’t worry though, I won’t charge like that Jedi boy! 😉

singlespeedstu – Member
I’m glad you liked my vids though…I feel honoured, thank you sir..
No i do really think they’re great.
Maybe stick to doing them at least they’re entertaining.
You and Fairhurst must spend hours doing them.
POSTED 32 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Yeah I hear fairhurst is entering the peatys steel city, might be a challenge their for u that aye! 😉

Yeah I hear fairhurst is entering the peatys steel city

Make sure you write the correct name when you sign on. 8)