2nd EU Referendum Petition…..

I don’t really understand the point of the petition. We’ve had a debate and a count, everybody had a chance to express their view and the majority said out*.

We know the strength of feeling for staying in, it was slightly less than 50%

What the remain camp need to be thinking about now is how to influence the exit negotiations. It is possible that we can cut ourselves off and go for splendid isolation or we can go for something that is actually not that far removed from where we are now.

*I said In.

Both Cornwall and Yorkshire councils are asking government to confirm they will still get the same level of funding as they did from the EU. There is a reason they needed EU funding in the first place and the south east doesn’t. Central government doesn’t care about you and never has, so why do you thiink they will now give you tons of money now.

Quite right.

I’m a Cornishman living in Wales, and both voted “out”, despite being huge beneficiaries of EU funding. I argued the case that this was not “our own money” (another massive lie), because Westminster had never given a flying fwk about investing in deprived areas.

What this Country really needs to make it great again is a coherent Industrial Strategy. The disenfranchised and discontent still haven’t seen the replacement of the big, reasonably paid employers of the Industrial Age.

Coal, steel, shipbuilding, manufacturing weren’t killed by the EU, they were killed by too high pay, lack of flexibility on working conditions, poor quality old school management, crap design and successive Governments with no will to see high skill, high value, high quality manufacturing succeed in a modern world.

Despite Tory rhetoric (fluffing there own core vote), small businesses are not (or certainly should not be) the “engine room of British prosperity”. They’re too small and run for the comfort and self interest of small business owners. Big, succesful, global businesses are the drivers of a succesful economy. If we want our economy to grow we need to attract inward investment and stop the bleed of companies going abroad.

That is not a likely Brexit outcome

As mentioned by footflaps earlier;

Port Talbot steel at risk

We’re less than 48 hours in. How many events like this, deep in working class Leave territory, until no-one is brave enough to press the big red “article 50” button?

I signed the petition. The brexiteers can complain and call me a bad looser or whatever. But it’s not a game. We had one referendum that many think shouldn’t have been called in a parliamentary democracy. The campaign was atrocious and the result was so close that another vote a few days later may have had a different result.

This is politics. If leave had lost Farage would be fighting for another bite. I would back anyone having a go at keeping us from leaving until it is clear to me that leaving is either best or that a genuine and significant majority of people really want to leave.

Then we have the terms of leaving. If the petition helps us stay even as part of the EEA I will back it. Anyway this is my opinion. I know some people will shout at me and tell me to get over it… but this matters and I’m happy to take comments.

Signing the petition is not about a second referendum – it’s about getting MPs and particularly the parliamentary Conservative party to do the right thing for the Country.

Cameron played a blinder yesterday – totally blindsided all the Tory Cowards that signed the letter for him to stay on and do their dirty work – as I posted in one of the other threads:

Here you go Boris, here’s the keys of No.10. You crapped in the duvet, so you clean it up

My god what have ‘we’ done.

The nation has basically chucked a toddler tantrum. Screamed and then deliberately shat in our own pull-ups.

Now we are sat in shitty pants thinking we have proved a point, when actually we’re just sat in shitty pants looking very stupid.

😐

I don’t really understand the point of the petition. We’ve had a debate and a count, everybody had a chance to express their view and the majority said out

No. We haven’t had a debate.

We had a ridiculous and depressing exchange of meaningless shit.

Who debated the economy?
Who debated immigration?
Who debated sovereignty?
Who debated environment?
Who debated social policy & welfare?
Who debated employment rights?
Who debated what our future relationship with Europe looks like?
Who debated how to make Btitain attractive to investors and more competitive to the EU Countries?

Can you honestly answer any of the above?
A “debate” isn’t a slagging match of “shit shit shit / fear fear fear” or “la la la were not listening”

philxx1975 – Member

Are you done because your making yourself look a bit silly.

Sweetheart – I’ll be here all night. I’m typing up some research that was partially funded by the ERC (almost certainly another factor that VL didn’t consider in the £350m figure plastered on the side of the bus), but I’m always willing to set aside some time for education.

Just making my

small and insignificant

contribution to the body of knowledge.

Despite Tory rhetoric (fluffing there own core vote), small businesses are not (or certainly should not be) the “engine room of British prosperity”. They’re too small and run for the comfort and self interest of small business owners. Big, succesful, global businesses are the drivers of a succesful economy. If we want our economy to grow we need to attract inward investment and stop the bleed of companies going abroad.

I argued something similar when discussing the potential trade agreements of a post-Brexit UK: Our industry is primarily a specialism-led one, where we don’t make the whole thing, we make small, important, specialist parts, for larger companies. Whilst this is an important role, it requires close trade links, such as those we had in the EU. A Britain out on it’s own doesn’t have the large-scale industry to be able to bargain effectively at trade talks.

It would go something like this:

China: We can send you mobile phones, tablets, computers, TVs, clothing, white goods, machine tools, bicycles, watches, toys, musical instruments etc etc. What can you send us?

Britain: [whispers between delegates] ….. errm….. how about a gearbox from a Bugatti Veyron?

China: Next!

Jonba, in the first instance the petition is reactionary. The in vote lost by the narrowest of margins in a monumental decision that is bigger than most people could even begin to appreciate. It’s a petition of complete and utter disbelief that a majority of the U.K. could be so short sighted and gullible enough to cut their nose off to spite their face.

However, there could be utility in it. It appears that many people voted out as a protest vote believing that the result to stay was a foregone conclusion. But these same people now find themselves having voted for something they never wanted and are in shock. If this petition gains momentum, it may well cause another referendum where people actually make an informed vote and we drag this country back from the precipice.

Will it work? Who knows. But I sure as hell know that I am apoplectic with rage that someone has jepardised my future (and more importantly that of my unborn child) because, and this is a direct quote from someone I was speaking to today, “because I couldn’t be arsed to listen to the arguments so took a punt on ‘Out’ for a laugh. I didn’t think it would actually happen”.

It might be described as snobbery or “sore losers”, but the uninformed, disenfranchised, prejudiced and bigoted have between them managed to kneecap themselves and their country this week.

In my mind, ignorance is not a virtue, nor is the term necessarily offensive.

Ignorance of the facts is, however, what has led to this disastrous outcome for Britain.

This is not party politics.

This is the difference between rational decision making and emotional mob rule. Two factions within the nation have clashed and the mob have outnumbered the rational.

I and my friends, relatives and the vast majority of my colleagues are horrified and some were physically nauseated by what has happened this week.

Terrible.

Ps. The working classes are probably going to suffer most from the fall-out from the referendum. The educated, intelligent middle and upper classes have the skills, certificates, contacts and savings to cope.

philxx1975 – Member
Are you done because your making yourself look a bit silly.

Sweetheart – I’ll be here all night. I’m typing up some research that was partially funded by the ERC (almost certainly another factor that VL didn’t consider in the £350m figure plastered on the side of the bus), but I’m always willing to set aside some time for education.

Just making my

small and insignificant
contribution to the body of knowledge.

not as angry and shouty though, good for you calming down a tad.

jonba – Member

We know the strength of feeling for staying in, it was slightly less than 50%

That’s not quite true. The strength of feeling for leaving was a little over 37.5% of registered voters (72.2% turnout of which VL capture 51.9%). Those who wished to remain or were happy enough with the status quo so as not to vote at all numbered 62.5% of the total vote.

That’s why there is a petition.

Suppose we had a second referendum and the vote was to remain. Could the Brexiters then call for a third referendum ? And on and on and on and on ……….
Of course not. It’s a f****** stupid idea.

dannyh plus 1

Both Cornwall and Yorkshire councils are asking government to confirm they will still get the same level of funding as they did from the EU.

The Government can’t possibly know what level of funding the EU may or may not be providing in 2018 which is the earliest date we would have left the EU

They could if they thought there would be a different answer. Which is the fundamental point here – there is a significant expectation, based on plenty of evidence, that if another referendum was run on Monday there would be a different answer.

Daffy, this is the second time toady that a STW’er has claimed that non voters should be added to the remain vote. You re-define the word thick.

The toddler analogy? I was also particularly impressed by that and think maybe he should stop while he’s ahead!

Daffy, this is the second time toady that a STW’er has claimed that non voters should be added to the remain vote. You re-define the word thick.

I tend to agree: However, it does serve one purpose, and that is to demonstrate that something like this should never have been subject to a referendum in the first place. A decision that is not reversible and effects every single person in the country, boiled down to campaign soundbites.

It’s fine for general elections and local elections, where if you don’t like the subsequent performance of the elected official, you can exercise your democratic right to vote against them the next time. However, with this, there is no democratic right to change. Therefore, we now have 17 million people forcing 46 million people to live with their decision forever.

Ok, I hear you saying “it would be the same if the result was reversed”, but that would just be a continuation of a situation we having been living under for forty years, with limited risk to those involved: it is a controllable situation.

The Government can’t possibly know what level of funding the EU may or may not be providing in 2018 which is the earliest date we would have left the EU

Sorry, that is incorrect. The funding packages have been agreed for the period 2014-2020 (£486M)

FTFY 😉

However, with this, there is no democratic right to change. Therefore, we now have 17 million people forcing 46 65 million people to live with their decision forever.

I voted out. Not for a punt, not for a laugh, not because I’m racist or because I’m ignorant.

I’m part Greek. The European Commission “punished” the people of Greece after their previous push for the hasty acceptance of that nation into the EU. Greece was financially underdeveloped but in the pursuit of more centralised power, Brussels was keen to admit Greece and made the necessary financial accommodations to make it happen. After the inevitable cock up they turn their backs and plunge millions of Greeks into austerity and hardship and don’t allow them to leave, devalue and rebuild (**** you where’s our money), similar but less pronounced situation in Spain (50% youth unemployment anyone) and perhaps soon Italy will feel the pinch. These events told me all I needed to know about the way the EU is going. My mind was made up long before the current vote. Pragmatism says stay it’s the truly selfish position, the EU superstate (by their own admission it’s the end goal) is good for the founder members but always leaves the UK on the fringe and smaller states exposed.

This vote for many wasn’t about the issues raised in this frankly disgusting disinformation campaign but was for many about a simple question – Who should make key economic and social policy here in the UK? Should it be a UK Parliament despite its obvious faults or 28 EU commissioners advised in the main by a conglomerate of “key business leaders” who have the power to pass EU law that is almost impossible to appeal.

Many of you talk about the long term nature of this vote,lamenting the fact that a GE is every five years, this is permanent yet you don’t mention the long term nature of the EU Commssions activity and ultimately it’s lack of accountability to the 508 million people in the 28 member states it ostensibly serves.

Do I think the EU is an evil plot? No of course not but I also do not believe it is capable of the fair management of the affairs of the people it is supposed to serve in it’s current form. That form we are told quite clearly cannot be changed by us in the UK unless we accept more EU control and less local decision making in which case “maybe” so for me the catch 22 is right there.

I believe the UK will be in for a tough time however I also believe change at home is easier than change in the EU commission, get your own house in order seems sensible and perhaps more pragmatic in the very long term if pragmatism is what drove your in vote.

Nah not really I just don’t want more immigrants innit.

I voted out. Not for a punt, not for a laugh, not because I’m racist or because I’m ignorant.

Your decision can only be respected. A considered view and conclusion (I’m ignoring the last bit 😉 )

fair play joolsburger, probably thebest reasoning ive read justifying an out vote, (it does completely absolve greeks of any blame themselves though)

how do you feel about us now heading for a Norway style arrangement,
ie all the laws/regulations, some of the financial contributions, but even less of the accountability?

I don’t know about Greece, but the problem is Spain is widespread corruption.

The political, legal and financial system is a mess. The EU has given huge support to Spain. They do not enforce enough control on the country IMO. there are plenty of people there that are no more than criminals and should be made accountable for the mess they have made of things.

more power to the EU I say, many politicians just do nothing or even worse.. just look at what is happening here in the UK, this mess was not caused by the EU was it?

I also respect that point of view. However, I think you are pretty much basing your vote in what happened to Greece, rather than what will happen to Britain. Like many people I felt pretty lukewarm about the EU for a variety of reasons. But the vote to leave has concentrated the mind wonderfully & I realise how much we have to lose.

thebees – Member
Daffy, this is the second time toady that a STW’er has claimed that non voters should be added to the remain vote. You re-define the word thick.

I’m not, nor have I ever claimed that they should be added to the Remain count. I’m stating the fact that less than 40% of the total registered vote, voted for change. The rest voted, either by action or abstention, for no change and that’s the premise behind petition for a 2nd referendum.

So, given your inability to read or comprehend correctly, now who’s thick?

Joolsburger, Greece is not the UK.

I respect your decision. I also respect the decision of others who voted leave, I have no choice to. Irrespective of whether that decision was based on sound evaluation of the pros and cons, or a knee jerk reaction driven by racism or intolerance. Everyone was given a vote, and was given the chance to use their vote in the way they see fit.

However – what I’m not forced to do is accept the reasoning. If that reasoning is based on ignorance or driven by racism I’m going to point that out, because whether we’re in or out, I don’t want to live in a country where those views and prejudices continue to be so close to the surface.

And let’s be honest; a substantial proportion of the Leave vote was driven by Daily Mail reading bigots and their ilk rather than people who’ve evaluated and come to a conscious conclusion.

The ones that didn’t vote couldn’t care less. You can ignore them.

I truly believe that sensible arrangements will be made, perhaps similar to Norway. It is necessary our exit be as painless and have the smallest impact on their economies as possible and we aren’t Greece so punishment for us isn’t an option.
I agree our problems are not all EU based but if this shocker of a vote has done anything it’s put the spotlight very much on our political classes to get on with the job in hand and that needed to happen whatever the outcome was.
I used Greece as an example of the lack of fairness in attempting to govern 28 states and 508 million people centrally, it’s herding cats (but with real human impact) that is all.

This referendum has highlighted the difference between 2 or 3 groups of people:

The educated, working middle income/class

The elderly

Everybody else

voting should be mandatory.
maybe less than 50% a jury should also decide the outcome of a trial because they all agree and outnumber the other views?

joolsburger – Member
I truly believe that sensible arrangements will be made,

Sorry, that is incorrect. The funding packages have been agreed for the period 2014-2020

PFFT jamby does not deal in facts
2018 ia not even the earliest we can leave either, if we trigger article 50 2 years is the maximum its not the only timescale its just the longest one.

Yes Kimbers I’ll admit Boris does not fill me with confidence but it has also exposed Cameron for the coward and self serving little shit he is. But still perhaps he isn’t in for long and it will be the civil service and silk street that cut the deals. Also Boris rides bikes so at least a part of him is human.

Is this true? it is in the express, but…………

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683410/EXCLUSIVE-The-VOTE-LEAVE-backer-whose-petition-could-inadvertently-derail-the-Brexit

De Montfort University activist William Oliver Healey submitted the petition on May 25 in the hope it would help the fight for a Brexit if Vote Remain won the referendum by a narrow margin, by triggering a second referendum.

But the English Democrat activist from Telford’s petition drew little interest…that is until yesterday when the Brexit victory was announced, and it now appears to have backfired.

Hehe – that is funny!

+1 – though I’d go further than lukewarm, and use the present tense (if anything my views have hardened in the last few days with the attitude coming from the EU, even if MRD applies). Yet I voted remain, because pragmatically for all I dislike about the club, being inside it was clearly vastly preferable to being outside – and I have no expectation that us leaving will result in them reforming before welcoming us back.

I also admire your optimism. The trouble is, what you’re missing is that not only is Norway’s situation probably not preferable to what we had (I used to think it was, but no longer so sure), but that punishment very much is an option for us – not because it makes economic sense, but pour décourager les autres. The irony being that if we were alone in wanting to leave we could be allowed to leave on more amicable terms.