Home Forums Chat Forum 2019 General Election

  • This topic has 6,282 replies, 176 voices, and was last updated 4 years ago by kelvin.
Viewing 40 posts - 3,361 through 3,400 (of 6,291 total)
  • 2019 General Election
  • kimbers
    Full Member

    Interesting graph nickc !

    I’m confused about no religion being smaller than all the others tho?

    I suppose Johnson’s islamaphobic comments have baked in opposition to the Tories in the Muslim communities too

    Very sad to see 2 main political parties with such stark religious divisions between them

    frankconway
    Free Member

    Now we have Heseltine weighing in, again, against the tories – ‘….he is saying this morning that he doesn’t want to support a party that in his view – by pursuing Brexit – will make the country pooerer and will make it less influential across the world’.
    In response, Gove says comments are….not helpful.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    I’m confused about

    It’s percentage/proportions, not absolute values. The three columns for each religion add up to 100%, they do not represent the size of the total vote share that religion has in any way.

    iffoverload
    Free Member

    So the long term political future of a country affecting the entire population..
    possibly for decades to come..
    can be swayed by the hate of a relatively small minority of religious zealots..
    their anger directed at a particular figure to satisfy their spite..
    facilitating the empowerment of a basically far right extremist party..
    with seemingly no social conscience..

    ..the phrase cutting off your nose to spite your face pops up.

    to vote in this election based on anything other than the long term effects
    of the changes proposed is nothing short of idiocy or gullability of a high order

    v8ninety
    Full Member

    That the Israeli Govt are arseholes about Palestine, is NOT the fault of British citizens who happen to be Jewish, OK TJ? Have you got that message now?

    Your post was reasonable and considered up until this point. I don’t make a habit of it, but I’m going to defend TJ here. NOTHING he has posted has suggested that he thinks that Israeli actions are U.K. Jews fault. To do so would be clearly antisemitic and TJ is many things but he’s not that.

    dazh
    Full Member

    I see it’s anti-semitism day. Think I’m about where this guy is.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    To do so would be clearly antisemitic and TJ is many things but he’s not that.

    I don’t think the original post about conflating British Jews with Isreal was meant to be read as if TJ is antisemitic, no one has claimed, or even suggested that.

    Think I’m about where this guy is.

    Wow Dazh. Is that they very definition of a straw man?!? You’re better than that, I’d like to think.

    A Labour govt would not usher in a new holocaust. The Labour Party are not taking antisemitism seriously enough.

    v8ninety
    Full Member

    TJ is antisemitic, no one has claimed, or even suggested that.

    This clearly implies it, IMO;

    is NOT the fault of British citizens who happen to be Jewish, OK TJ? Have you got that message now?

    If he didn’t MEAN to imply it, he owes TJ an apology. If he DID mean to imply it, then he owes more than an apology.

    kerley
    Free Member

    A Labour govt would not usher in a new holocaust. The Labour Party are not taking antisemitism seriously enough.

    Agree, but I do think people making statements such as “I wouldn’t feel safe in this country under a Corbyn government and would have to leave the country” are a touch dramatic.

    iffoverload
    Free Member

    Yeah all my Jewish friends are really “anxious” living about living in a Labour run UK

    In fact they are really looking forward to The Great Utopian Brexit Liberation and Tolerance of Minority Religions that is to come once we have taken back control.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Thank you V8

    dazh
    Full Member

    are a touch dramatic

    A touch? They’re nothing short of hysteria whipped up by the right wing with clear political aims. It’s like McCarthyism never happened.

    Look, this is all fairly simple. We live in a country which despite surface appearances, is still deeply racist at pretty much every level and grouping in society. Focusing on one tiny element of it in one group of society is plainly ridiculous. Anyone who can’t see that the cause of anti-racism is being blatantly politicised for the advantage of one party needs to open their eyes. By all means lets root out racism wherever it exists, but lets do it universally, consistently and impartially. There is no area of our society where racism doesn’t exist in some form.

    And really if anyone thinks TJ is in any way shape or form anti-semitic then I despair. Can we get back to real issues now? Every word spent on this issue just feeds the hysteria. We need to stop, this sort of thing doesn’t lead anywhere good.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Can we get back to real issues now?

    I’m sure all us gentiles can get behind the idea of concentrating on other things but, for others, referring to antisemitism as something other than a “real issue” is pretty cold and hard.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Antisemitismis real accross all sections of society

    Critism of Isreal is not of its self anti semitic but any critisim is often called anti semetic

    Corbyn is willing to critise Isreal. That gets him called anti semetic

    No one has yet been able to point to a single anti semetic thing Corbyn has ever done

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Well, that is probably best taken back to the Corbyn thread.

    rone
    Full Member

    I’m sure all us gentiles can get behind the idea of concentrating on other things but, for others, referring to antisemitism as something other than a “real issue” is pretty cold and hard.

    He’s not referring to antisemitism as the non-real issue he’s saying the subterfuge for politicising should be treated with scepticism.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    The chief Rabbi does not speak for all UK jews. he speaks for a part of them. You don’t get to hear the other side do you?

    here are some examples:

    Smoke Without Fire: The Myth of a ‘Labour Antisemitism Crisis’

    Home

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/22/jewish-voting-labour-antisemitism-progressive-government

    kelvin
    Full Member

    > sigh <

    Vote Labour. Please don’t let the most blinkered supporters put you off. You can see that Labour have problems amongst their ranks that are yet to be dealt with properly, and also that having another Labour MP is immeasurably better for everyone in the UK than another Conservative MP.

    Vote Labour. Stop the Tories.

    rone
    Full Member

    Tipping point? One off Poll?

    Need the positivity.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    It’ll narrow still further in the next few weeks. I had hoped the launch of the Labour manifesto would have moved the dial further than it has though (it did in 2017); harder for Labour to surprise this time, I suppose.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    Id like to think the momentum was with Labour & some labour leavers started to have doubts about a Johnson government rone, but too many people seem to buy the myth that Johnson well get brexit sorted in a few months

    dazh
    Full Member

    referring to antisemitism as something other than a “real issue” is pretty cold and hard.

    For christ’s sake leave it. Misrepresenting what people say about AS feeds the hysteria. That’s how every witch-hunt in history happened, and there was always someone somewhere who benefitted from it. You can either take part in it and be part of the mob, or not.

    Need the positivity.

    We didn’t do this one yesterday. Yes labour should always be ahead in Wales, and by more than this, but the significant bit is the change in sentiment. Things could be turning…

    nickc
    Full Member

    V8, TJ.

    This is what I object to

    Its as I siad. The isrealis and their apologists are aghast that there is a prospect of a government in the UK that will hold isreal to account for its vile actions

    If you’d have said The Isreali Govt and left it there I’d have been totally fine. But you didn’t say that you said the Isrealis (the entire country and people) and it’s apologists…This is the divided loyalty trope.

    The criticism today was from Ephraim Mirvis, a British citizen and Rabbi. and by this statement has ignored the obvious fact that the “Israelis” are not a homogenous group and indeed have sharply diverse political views. But, TJ is happy to lump Mirvis in as a mouth-peice of the “Israelis” and label him “An apologist”

    I don’t particularly feel the need to apologise, I think TJ probably needs to reflect on typing too fast. I don’t think TJ is anti Semitic, but I’d be pleased if he reflected on this more  Let’s call it an example of Hanlon’s Razor

    rone
    Full Member

    t’ll narrow still further in the next few weeks. I had hoped the launch of the Labour manifesto would have moved the dial further than it has though (it did in 2017); harder for Labour to surprise this time, I suppose.

    Inertia. Maybe it will ramp up.

    That poll is one of the tricky ones that tends to reflect Tory goodness.

    Interestingly here in Brexitlaw (Bassetlaw) we don’t appear to have a campaigning Tory PPC. Now if you know anything about Bassetlaw (Lord John Mann of Brexitville previously) we are supposed to be heading towards Tory. But there is no one on the campaign trail.

    (Actually Brendan Clark-Smith is listed but still haven’t seen him campaigning.)

    I for the life of me can’t figure out what’s gone on with the Tory PPC. I see Brendan Clarke-Smith listed but nothing from him.

    I’m going to a mini question time debate soon with all the candidates apart from the Tory PPC listed!

    frankconway
    Free Member

    Anyone hear Lord Justice Dyson on 5Live just now?
    Formerly head of appeal court and member of supreme court.
    Damning of Johnson regarding honesty and integrity.
    Nicely skewered Sir.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Tipping point? One off Poll?

    There was an ICM poll yesterday too…

    v8ninety
    Full Member

    Let’s call it an example of Hanlon’s Razor

    On both of your parts, then; your sloppy inference of antisemitism was as bad if not worse than TJ’s lack of clarity between the terms of ‘Israel’ and ‘Government of Israel’. If he’d conflated ‘Israel’ with ‘Jewish’ you’d have had more of a point, but he didn’t.

    Anyway, agreed, let’s move on.

    rone
    Full Member

    There was an ICM poll yesterday too…

    yeah saw that last night. Good.

    rone
    Full Member

    https://www.thearticle.com/peter-kellner-some-of-the-most-startling-polling-numbers-i-have-ever-seen

    Yuk.

    Maybe flawed because it’s all based on a yougov extraction. Dunno.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    If Johnson can be denied his majority, it might be surprising just who is prepared to support Labour forming a government instead (with a different leader) and holding an EU referendum…

    We might end up with ALL the NI MPs, of all parties, doing what needs doing to kill Johnson’s Brexit approach.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Yuk.

    Agreed. Something can be done about it though…

    dazh
    Full Member

    Kelvin if you’re hoping labour will jettison Corbyn at the behest of the DUP then give up now. Labour members would rather be in opposition than kowtow to the racist fanatics in the DUP, and they’d be right in doing so.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    > sigh <

    Labour might be in a position to form a government, with a different leader. If they choose opposition instead… well… 🤷🏻‍♂️ If the votes of MPs from 7 different parties are required to move the UK away from Johnson’s Brexit, it will require a very different way of doing things in Westminster.

    binners
    Full Member

    Ideological purity, comrade. It trumps everything. It certainly trumps being in power.

    We might end up with ALL the NI MPs, of all parties, doing what needs doing to kill Johnson’s Brexit approach.

    Have a think about what it is Johnson has achieved. He’s united all the political parties in NI in opposition to something. His crappy ‘deal’. Really you have to take your hat off to him. That truly unprecedented

    kiksy
    Free Member

    Labour might be in a position to form a government, with a different leader. If they choose opposition instead… well…

    The DUP will give over if it comes to that I’m sure, without Corbyn having to step down.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    He’s united all the political parties in NI in opposition to something. His crappy ‘deal’.

    And still we have England jogging along… tally ho… ignoring that we are forcing a deeply unpopular risky massive change on both NI and Scotland…

    If Johnson gets his majority, I dread to think how much he can turn people outside England against “Westminster” over a five year term.

    dazh
    Full Member

    Ideological purity, comrade. It trumps everything. It certainly trumps being in power.

    FFS binners and kelvin, are you really suggesting that the labour party should sell out their principles to people who are essentially hard right, religious fundamentalist racist fanatics, just for a taste of power? On the one hand you criticise them for supposedly being anti-semitic, now you want them to cosy up to the most fanatically bigoted people in parliament just to get in power? Get a grip on yourselves.

    And if they did, I can guarantee that they’d lose tens, if not hundreds of thousands of members, not to mention the votes of people like myself. If the DUP want to support a labour govt then that’s up to them, but labour should not under any circumstance change their policies or their leadership in order to ensure it.

    binners
    Full Member

    Daz – I believe the word you’re looking for is ‘compromise’. Or horse trading. Call it what you like. Its the reality of our political system now majorities look like (thankfully) being a thing of the past.

    Grandads track record suggests he won’t even compromise with those in his own party, but outside the bunker, so its a non-starter

    If Johnson gets his majority, I dread to think how much he can turn people outside England against “Westminster” over a five year term

    The union won’t survive a 5 year Tory term of them pursuing their hard Brexit.

    The problem is how that manifests it self. In Northern Ireland this type of thing has had a tendency to get a bit shooty

    kelvin
    Full Member

    now you want them to cosy up to the most fanatically bigoted people in parliament just to get in power?

    Cosy up? No. Ask them to support a closer relationship with Europe to reduce border issues… and then put that to the people in a referendum? Yes.

    Labour don’t want Scottish Independence. And shouldn’t have to in order to work with the SNP to stop Johnson’s Brexit.

    Labour don’t want the backwards social policies of DUP. And shouldn’t have to in order to work with the DUP to stop Johnson’s Brexit.

    Labour don’t want the LibDems particular balance of state and private provision of services. And shouldn’t have to in order to work with the LibDems to stop Johnson’s Brexit.

Viewing 40 posts - 3,361 through 3,400 (of 6,291 total)

The topic ‘2019 General Election’ is closed to new replies.