Home Forums Chat Forum 2015-16 rugby, world cup year

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  • 2015-16 rugby, world cup year
  • Scamper
    Free Member

    It’s worth pointing out again, he admitted foul play himself ie striking a player. The citing was also upheld. As I understand it these things can only go to committee if they are red card offences. So it’s upheld, but they then let him off as they didn’t think it was a red card offence. If that’s not confusing what is?

    zokes
    Free Member

    Same as aby other pubishment. Attempts to correct the behaviour of the offender and sends a warning to others who may do the same.

    So precisely what happened then? Perpetrator apologised at the first opportunity, demonstrating that he recognised what was wrong about what he said. Warning sent to others through publicity given to the potential sanction for racist abuse.

    Job done.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    if you really think that level of contact in a ruck / drive for the line should be a citable offence then maybe rugbys not the game for you.

    Well it was cited so must have been citable. Wasnt deemed worthy of a red but was certainly deemed foul play. Marler asmitted foul play too. So the player and the citing comittee disagreevwith you. To describe it as a clear out is simply bollocks. It was a cheap shot pure and simple to try and paint it as anything else is just bizare imo.

    Zokes, apologising is not a punishment, I am not suprised you dont get that though tbh.

    zokes
    Free Member

    Zokes, apologising is not a punishment

    Correct – it’s a sign of recognition of fault – a realisation that he’s done wrong, and why it could have been hurtful. One of the main steps to rehabilitation. Behaviour apparently on the way to correction. Job done.

    If punitive punishment worked, then places with capital punishment would be crime free. They are not. I am actually surprised you don’t get this; but as I raised previously – disagreement for disagreement’s sake when it comes to me has always been your MO. It’s a little sad really.

    DanW
    Free Member

    Slightly related but trying to move things along…

    EJ says Mako was always the plan against France for the type of game England want to play. Sounds like BS to me to get the team set up around Mako rather than Marler in case he was unavailable but I’d be interested to know if he does indeed add something special for France? I’ve never really rated him but am open to being educated 🙂

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    If punitive punishment worked, then places with capital punishment would be crime free. They are not.

    Stretch it to the max straight away why don’t you! 😀

    But anyway, that statement aside, you appear to be advocating the end of yellow cards, red cards, penalties, any retrospective punishment for incidents missed by the officials on the day? Is that the case?

    zokes
    Free Member

    But anyway, that statement aside, you appear to be advocating the end of yellow cards, red cards, penalties, any retrospective punishment for incidents missed by the officials on the day? Is that the case?

    Not at all. However, in this particular instance the perpetrator sought out and apologised to the victim at the earliest opportunity. I’m not suggesting that the potential of a large ban be removed, just that on this occasion it wasn’t necessary. It seems the adjudicators agree with me. Needless to said if he were to do it again I suspect a very long ban would be justified.

    As you said:

    Stretch it to the max straight away why don’t you!

    😆

    onehundredthidiot
    Full Member

    No way that marker thought about it decided his words were wrong walked to the opposition’s changing room, which contains two big props he’s passed off, and said sorry.
    RFU recognised the severity and marched him down there hoping to take the sting out of the repercussions (as any professional outfit would)

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    I’m not suggesting that the potential of a large ban be removed

    So you’re saying that [you think that] punishment does work. Just not in this case. Because he said sorry. (And of course Lee & Gatland said it was just top bantz.)

    It seems the adjudicators agree with me.

    Appeals to authority notwithstanding, World Rugby are making sounds like they don’t (in that they’ve asked for clarification…I’m not sure that explicitly means they “don’t agree”, but they’d like to have a look at it again).

    [Rugby Laws 10.4 (m) and Regulations 17 & 20 for reference]

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    If punitive punishment worked, then places with capital punishment would be crime free.

    Execution would be a bit harsh in this case.
    So are you suggesting any offender should say sorry and all is good? We could empty the prisons and the fat sais could bench for Wales this weekend if we can taxi him over to say soz mate to Cole.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    It’s a little sad really.

    Not as sad as not appearing on this thread until England beat Wales and then talking rubbish like you do as a pathetic attempt to troll.

    CaptainFlashheart
    Free Member

    Soz! It was just teh megabantz in the heat of the moment! Lolz.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Will he be the first Samoan Knighted?!!

    tallie
    Free Member

    aa Well it was cited so must have been citable. Wasnt deemed worthy of a red but was certainly deemed foul play”

    Well he was cited and the RBS Citing committee found it wasn’t a citable offence ie not worthy of a red. You’re saying that anyone charged with an offence is guilty which clearly isn’t the case. We’re clearly not going to agree so probably worth moving on.

    What do we think of the Francis ban? For me either 2 international referees interpret the laws completely differently from the citing committee when presented with the same information (ie penalty vs red card) or Joubert completly abrogated himself of the responsibility for making a crucial decision on the day. I think this is a slippery slope as it’s always easier to kick the can down the road and ask someone else to make a decision and a ban doesn’t have the same impact on the team as a card.

    CaptainFlashheart
    Free Member

    or Joubert completly abrogated himself of the responsibility for making a crucial decision on the day.

    Not seen him referee before?

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Well he was cited and the RBS Citing committee found it wasn’t a citable offence ie not worthy of a red.

    Eh? If he was cited it was citable surely. Found not to be a red so no ban. It points to the fact it should have been a yellow. They certainly didnt clear him of foul play as you’re trying to suggest it should have been. He admitted foul play they found it to be foul play but not worthy of a red or a ban.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Joubert was crap.

    tallie
    Free Member

    Flash – that’s a gif I never tire of watching. A part of me does feel that if Ashton and Farrell had played in an era where this was the standard reaction to sly niggle and off the ball stuff they’d have stopped doing it by now…

    dantsw13
    Full Member

    Tallie – I watched the EngvWAl game on Japanese tv, with live ref link for the whole match. I’m not sure what happened in the uk. For the Francis decision, the discussion between ref/TMO was basically ” it looks like a hand on the eye area, but we only have 1 angle, so penalty only, and leave it for the citing officer after the match”

    The TMO was the one pushing Joubert to leave it until later, which was piss-poor imho.

    Scamper
    Free Member

    Tallie -it was a citable offence, and the citing was upheld ie he was found guilty of striking an oppenent. The only issue is he wasn’t banned as for some reason the committee then decided it wasn’t deemed a red card which is confusing as these citings are only for possible red cards in the first place.

    tallie
    Free Member

    Scamper – I’m aware of the contradiction. Ultimately the ref on the day and the TMO saw the incident in both real time and slow motion repeatedly and didn’t think it worthy of even a penalty. The citing committee then cover themselves in glory by deciding it is a citable offence (ie worthy of a red card) but not deserving a ban because it’s not worthy of a red card (and therefore presumably not a red card offence); perhaps they wanted to give fans something to argue about whilst waiting for the final games?

    Can anybody find the actual RBS 6 Nations Disciplinary Committee statement as that may (although I doubt it) make things clearer?

    DanW
    Free Member

    Tallie… No point getting all het about the logic of any of this. You have seen the citing process before right?

    tallie
    Free Member

    I’ve seen it as a player – it’s actually gets much worse as you go down the leagues and can involve some machiavellian politics…

    loum
    Free Member

    It points to the fact it should have been a yellow.

    Maestri recieved a “Citing Commissioners Warning” for his cheap shot on Sexton in the Ireland France game , precisely because his actions warranted a yellow card.

    That’s the equivalent of a retrospective yellow and counts as the same value in totting up towards a 3 yellow ban.

    I’d expect them to use the same punishment if they intended to “point to the fact it should have been a yellow”.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Scamper – I’m aware of the contradiction. Ultimately the ref on the day and the TMO saw the incident in both real time and slow motion repeatedly and didn’t think it worthy of even a penalty.

    No, the offence was missed. It wasnt looked at. The idiot who was the video ref was only looking at the try.

    sadmadalan
    Full Member

    The TMO and the ref reviewed the Francis incident. Indeed Joubert called it reckless. To not do something about it then was wrong, since the entire TV watching population knew that it was going to be cited.

    I actually thought Joubert had an ok game on Saturday, he was fair with both teams and consistent. But saying that he failed on two big decisions. The red card that should have be shown to Francis and he should have has the question of the Cole ‘try’ – Any reason not to award? All the pundits in the box at half time knew it was a try – even the Welsh ones!

    On that basis – getting the big decisions wrong – he needs to stop doing Internationals. Barnes, Poite, Clancy, Owens, etc all would have be stronger and stop up at the big decisions.

    igm
    Full Member

    Is the Cole try the one that was grounded short and then rolled along the ground over the line?

    ads678
    Full Member

    No that was Youngs.

    igm
    Full Member

    Got it – the one where the only clear shot has the ball 6″ of the ground. Which doesn’t mean it wasn’t grounded of course.

    Pigface
    Free Member

    Yay U20 Grand Slam good work Wales 😀

    France deny a womens grand slam for england as well, portent for tomorrow???

    sofaboy73
    Free Member

    France deny a womens grand slam for england as well, portent for tomorrow???

    after eddie jones’ cockwombalry in the press this week i hope so. small minded and petty of me, very much so!

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    So hopefully no one will see through my thinly veiled hopes that England lose, but is anyone starting to feel a bit sorry for the French internatio al team. Lots of good players not given the same time to train together as the other 6 natio s teams. I hope they beat England, we need a strong France in the six natiobs. Alles les blues….is the game today or have I peaked too soon?

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    . I hope they beat England, we need a strong France in the six natiobs. Alles les blues….is the game today or have I peaked too soon?

    Sort of agree but much prefer the thought of hitting rock bottom rather than a rousing finish to paper over the cracks. Come on England

    tinybits
    Free Member

    Should be a good afternoon of matches, I only hope I’m still able to see straight by the England kickoff…

    dantsw13
    Full Member

    Aa – is that true about the French squad time together? Is that due to a lack of a player agreement with the clubs?

    I feel EJ is “doing a Mourinho” to take the pressure off the players.

    Pigface
    Free Member

    Yeah French team have something like 3 days together go back to clubs plat match then back to camp, hardly conducive to winning.

    E. Jones is an arse, why is he having a pop at Wales when playing France?

    dantsw13
    Full Member

    No point winding up the French before the game – plus I bet he’s livid over the whole Marler thing. Aussies take a very different stance on racial slurs than we do here – note that interview a few pages back.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    why is he having a pop at Wales when playing France?

    Dont know but he may find he has under estimated things when England roll into Cardiff with Lions places up for grabs next year.

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    This has just appeared on my timeline which kind of puts into words how I feel about EJ these days, after what seemed like a breath of fresh air during the RWC. 😐

    In what has been something of an incendiary episode from the start, it was probably fitting that Eddie Jones ended up having his eyebrow-raising tuppence worth.

    Ahead of departing for Paris where he hopes his England side will claim a first Grand Slam in 13 years against France on Saturday night, Jones said the Welsh Rugby Union’s hard-line stance against racism in the wake of the Joe Marler-Samson Lee ‘gypsy boy’ furore had an ulterior motive.

    “Everyone is keen for England not to win the Grand Slam, let’s be real about it,” said Jones.

    “Wales will be happy if we don’t win the Grand Slam and they’ll do anything to upset us in our preparation. It’s as simple as that.”

    Don’t flatter yourself Eddie. A sizeable contingent of Welsh supporters may like to see Les Bleus derail England, but the WRU and the Wales squad couldn’t care two hoots.

    But that’s hardly the point.

    For the England boss to equate an organisation’s condemnation of racism with some conspiracy to influence the outcome of a game was just beneath contempt.

    And to cast doubt on the integrity of people like WRU chief executive Martyn Phillips and chairman Gareth Davies – for that’s what Jones has effectively done – was crass and unforgivable.

    There will be those who titter at the remarks, brush them off as having come from a canny Australian on a wind-up.

    Well, if Jones was indeed trying to wind everyone up it was deeply irresponsible.

    He taunted Wales by claiming they ‘don’t know if they are Arthur or Martha’, in reference to apparently contradictory stances on the affair.

    But this ignored the fact that Warren Gatland, who described Marler’s comment as ‘banter’ is just one employee of the WRU – albeit a high profile one.

    It was one errant remark from someone who has since issued an apology. The WRU’s position has been consistent from the outset.

    Continuing his assault on rational thinking, Jones added: “This is why you have citing commissions. Once they have made their decision you get on with – you don’t say it (the decision) is wrong.”

    Why’s that Eddie? Why do we have to accept the bizarre ruling of anonymous and misguided Six Nations officials?

    With this saga having dominated the run-up to the final Six Nations weekend, there have been calls from some quarters to ‘move on’.

    But move on to what? To an acceptance that it is OK for players to sling this sort of insult at opponents? To the fact that some junior players will now take the field thinking that if they do what Marler did they shouldn’t be punished?

    Jones is experiencing his first Six Nations and may yet repeat the trick Gatland performed in 2008 by doing a clean sweep at the first attempt.

    But it appears he still has much to learn about the respect which has always underpinned the tournament, and relations between the competing sides.

    Meanwhile, if England win at Stade de France there will certainly be the usual angst about their success among the red clad hordes. T’was ever thus.

    Yet nobody this side of the Severn Bridge who knows anything about the game will, deep down, begrudge them.

    They will be deserving champions, deserving Grand Slammers.

    Genuine rugby fans will applaud the achievement. Jones will be entitled to puff out his chest and talk excitedly about the future of English rugby.

    But when the dust has settled, when we all go back to work on Monday morning, the stain of an unsatisfactory outcome to a matter of grave importance will remain.

    That’s because players hurling around jibes like ‘gypsy boy’ is about so much more than one match alone. It’s about the very future of rugby union.

    How incredibly silly of Jones not to realise that.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    So todays game? Wales21 italy 9 in an error strewn shit fest of dullness, ireland 15 Scotland 32 in the game of the day and then France 15 England 18 in a tight squeaky bum fashion.

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