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"1,400 children were subjected to "appalling" sexual exploitation in Rotherham"
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mudmuncherFull MemberPosted 9 years ago
I pretty fed up of the racism tag being used to block free speech and debate.
Racism means you discriminate against people because of their ethnicity/ biological makeup, e.g. colour of their skin, slitty eyes, ginger hair etc. This is clearly ridiculous and you would have to be very stupid individual to hold these prejudices.
What is perfectly acceptable is to judge or criticise people on their beliefs, that is after all what happens every day on STW. If I believed in the fairies and prayed to them every day and thought the rest of you were dirty infidels for not sharing my beliefs no one would think twice about taking the piss, but if I stuck my bum in the air 5 times a day to pray to Allah then no one would say anything for fear of being called a racist.
emszFree MemberPosted 9 years agoI think we’ve outed some proper racists here.
We’ve just had to sack a receptionist because she was, well, just a bit racist. It was pretty shocking really, complaining that some “Indians” were looking at the next door cottage in her village. When Seema (duh) asked what the problem was her response was ” well, they fit in in do they?”
There are loads of people who will say “I’m not racist” but haven’t given any other thought to it and say some really terrible things!!
Shit thing to have happened to loads of kids, and nothing was done because it was too much like hard work, they’re all a bit chavvy and into drugs and no-one gives a shit about them. There are people that need to go to prison for this
Tom_W1987Free MemberPosted 9 years agoWhat is perfectly acceptable is to judge or criticise people on their beliefs, that is after all what happens every day on STW. If I believed in the fairies and prayed to them every day and thought the rest of you were dirty infidels for not sharing my beliefs no one would think twice about taking the piss, but if I stuck my bum in the air 5 times a day to pray to Allah then no one would say anything for fear of being called a racist.
That’s all well and good and personally I don’t think Badnews is actually racist. It’s just that there is a fine line between attacking ideology/beliefs and making sweeping statements about an ethnic groups being more likely to do this or that based on you’re own personal prejudices.
And if I want to be perfectly truthful with myself, it was only after saying that UKIPers are probably more likely to be racist that I found a bit of evidence for that. So I can be guilty of prejudiced thinking, everyone can, the difference being is that you should try to be aware of it.
That’s my final sensible contribution to this thread, on with the hilarity.
badnewzFree MemberPosted 9 years agoThanks Tom for your kind words, it’s been good to debate on this, let’s just hope that justice is served (I think the issue is attracting a lot of political, media and public pressure that it will do).
Time I did some work!
Exit badnewz, pursued by bear.Tom_W1987Free MemberPosted 9 years agoIt’s ok, Ernie would catch me out as being a hypocrite sooner or later. Had to come clean! 😉
I jest.
vickypeaFree MemberPosted 9 years agoWhat I want to know is what measures are going to be put in place to help prevent this from happening again.
dannyhFree MemberPosted 9 years agoit’s been good to debate on this
I think we’ve outed some proper racists here.
Easy on the self-congratulations all you ace debating society members. Remember the context a bit, perhaps.
Tom_W1987Free MemberPosted 9 years agoI think we’ve outed some proper racists here.
We’ve just had to sack a receptionist because she was, well, just a bit racist. It was pretty shocking really, complaining that some “Indians” were looking at the next door cottage in her village. When Seema (duh) asked what the problem was her response was ” well, they fit in in do they?”
There are loads of people who will say “I’m not racist” but haven’t given any other thought to it and say some really terrible things!!
Shit thing to have happened to loads of kids, and nothing was done because it was too much like hard work, they’re all a bit chavvy and into drugs and no-one gives a shit about them. There are people that need to go to prison for this
+1
What I want to know is what measures are going to be put in place to help prevent this from happening again.
I wouldn’t know where to begin, the report leaves me speechless.
Easy on the self-congratulations all you ace debating society members. Remember the context a bit, perhaps.
It’s good that people can find common ground. Silly polarization can help to highlight each side of the debate but at the end of the day humanities problems usually stem from the fact that we can often never relate to each other and find a compromise.
I was interested to see an interview on sky news today, with a young muslim chap who’s a youth leader (I think) in Rotherham – he was upset that the police/council had never asked their community about their views on racism and was angry at the presumptions that were made about their community. He mentioned something about the community not having a problem with the police targeting those who committed violent offenses (I think).
The point being, if someone had spent the time to actually create dialogue then this might have been avoided. Which leads me to believe, as others do on here, that the “racism” excuse is a little bit of a cop out although not entirely invalid.
chipFree MemberPosted 9 years agoI know loads of people who could be considered to be racist, that’s their right, as long as their views do not impact negatively on other peoples lives that’s fine.
You can hate black people, that’s fine as long as you don’t go around physically or verbally abusing them.
If someone does not want Indians living next door that’s fine, and that’s fine to say that. Not a lot they can do about it , if it happened they might actually like there new neighbours, or not.I
DirtyLyleFree MemberPosted 9 years agoIs that point people keep making about “30 years of left wing thinking” sarcasm? If it’s not, then you must think Thatcher was a pinko liberal, right? Fackin’ hell!
Tom_W1987Free MemberPosted 9 years agoYou can hate black people, that’s fine as long as you don’t go around physically or verbally abusing them.
Or you know, mark them down in exams or treat them differently in a job. It’s so easy to do all of this unconsciously, much easier to just try and change your subconscious attitudes a bit. If you really actually care.
chipFree MemberPosted 9 years agoEvery person who allowed this to happen should be exposed and face the consequences.
Whether that’s losing there jobs or facing charges.There is no excuse, I would rather be branded for evermore a racist than stand by and let this happen.
chipFree MemberPosted 9 years agoPeople will have there beliefs. If they are afraid to air them, you can never challenge them.
Some of the nicest people I know are racist.
And would help anyone out in genuine need what ever colour they are.But feel this country is being destroyed by mass immigration.
So there for racist in many peoples eyes.
chipFree MemberPosted 9 years agoPeople who chose to foster children, good kind people surely.
have children removed because the vote ukip.wwaswasFull MemberPosted 9 years agoPeople who chose to foster children, good kind people surely
or people seeing an opportunity to indoctrinate children into their political/religious/whatever beliefs and get paid for doing it?
Tom_W1987Free MemberPosted 9 years agoI still stand by them doing that chip, not because they are racist but because the bigger the cultural gap between the children and the foster parents the worse the mental health outcomes are for the children.
It doesn’t mean they should be banned from fostering and I don’t think they were. It just means that there are people more suited to those individual children. Fostering isn’t a right.
The social services have to make a judgement based on the child’s best interests, not the foster parents. If those children were damaged in anyway, then they would be responsible.
chipFree MemberPosted 9 years ago**** off it was a black baby who would have been put with a black family if one was available.
But this people chose to help because its a baby who needed love and interaction.chipFree MemberPosted 9 years agoThe baby was taken because the PC brigade branded them as racists.
If they were they would not have cared to help.
jivehoneyjiveFree MemberPosted 9 years agoWhat I want to know is what measures are going to be put in place to help prevent this from happening again.
This is the real issue here and the reason I’m such a stubborn ****
However, even the current government at the very highest level has played a part in covering up some very sinister activity:
of course, despite it being unlikely under the circumstance, the 114 lost files could be coincidental.
However, revoking the visa of a journalist who was going to investigate child abuse on Jersey shows complicity:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leah-mcgrath-goodman/david-miranda-uk-detention_b_3844480.html
Given that a number of sources report a network of abusers within the care system trafficking children between Jersey, Islington, Lambeth and North Wales amongst others, not to mention a stash of extreme abuse images turning up in Belgium which appear to have been taken on Jersey, is it not fair to be a mite suspicious?
Of course, the fact that Jimmy Savile tried to avoid association with Haut de la Garenne (the Jersey House of Horrors) may be a source of further suspicion.
Given that there are several children who appear to have been sent to Jersey and gone missing (an issue raised in Parliament by MP John Hemming) you really have to wonder what the **** was going on there:
This could in fact go beyond government, as ultimate authority over the crown dependency of Jersey is in the hands of the Queen…
Tom_W1987Free MemberPosted 9 years agoThe baby was taken because the PC brigade branded them as racists.
If they were they would not have cared to help.
Free essay as you won’t have access to many journals.
The baby was taken because the
PC brigade branded them as racistsstuck to normal protocol.You seem to be more worried about the foster parents than the child.
If they were they would not have cared to help.
Not everyone cares for altruistic reasons, even if they do, the subconscious comes into play.
chipFree MemberPosted 9 years agoHi Tom, I use **** off a lot and not meant as an insult, more of. “I don’t beleive it”.
If this family did not vote ukip it would have remained with them .
Tom_W1987Free MemberPosted 9 years agoIt’s ok, I don’t spam the report button 😛 . You’re right, it would, unless the social services found out they were anti-immigration through other means.
It’s literally that simple, it has everything to do with the child not being suitable for that placement and nothing to do with PC gone mad.
I’d be outraged if they were not allowed to foster at all….
diggaFree MemberPosted 9 years agoTom_W1987 – Member
It’s ok, I don’t spam the report button . You’re right, it would, unless the social services found out they were anti-immigration through other means.There appears to be widespread propaganda and misunderstanding about what UKIP actually stand for, but AFAIK, they are not racist, not against immigration and not ‘against’ immigrants per-se, but rather about a reform of immigration.
For the decision to be made purely on the basis of their affiliation to UKIP I find worrying; it smack of the two-party system attempting to marginalise (by any means) any alternative or opposition. It feels somewhat totalitarian to me.
Tom_W1987Free MemberPosted 9 years agoI don’t think the two main parties would have any say at all in what child gets placed where.
It’s up to the professionals involved in the case. Even if they aren’t racist etc, I should imagine they will have to do a risk assessment for that placement. If the risk of that child being in a home that could contribute to mental health issues is increased for whatever reason, then it’s fair play to remove the child.
If procedure wasn’t followed and they literally yanked the child away with the excuse “you’re racist”, then I’d be more than a little surprised.
they are not racist, not against immigration and not ‘against’ immigrants per-se, but rather about a reform of immigration.
I do find this a bit funny though
Ukip is part of the group Europe of Freedom and Democracy (EFD). The group includes representatives of the Danish People’s Party, the True Finns Party, the Dutch SGP and the infamous Italian Lega Nord – all of them far-right. Nigel Farage is co-President of the group along with Lega Nord’s Francesco Speroni, who described multiple murderer Anders Breivik as someone whose “ideas are in defence of western civilisation.”
Mario Borghezio, another member of the group, declared in a radio interview that Breivik had some “excellent” ideas. Farage’s reaction was to write a strongly-worded letter to Borghezio, asking him to withdraw his comments or Ukip would pull out of the EFD. Borghezio not only did not apologise, but responded with an extraordinary speech in which he raged: “Long live the Whites of Europe, long live our identity, our ethnicity, our race… our blue sky, like the eyes of our women. Blue, in a people who want to stay white.”
Nigel Farage did not withdraw from the EFD. He continues to co-preside over it, along with the leader of the Lega Nord. MEP Nikki Sinclaire, however, was expelled from Ukip for refusing to take part in the EFD because of their “extreme views”.
Personally, I think UKIP is a partly racist party that has yet to truly distance itself from and shake off supporters that are, I think the above just misses being an example of association fallacy because of that.
The expulsion of Nikki Sinclaire makes that clear.
diggaFree MemberPosted 9 years agoTom_W1987 – Member
I don’t think the two main parties would have any say at all in what child gets placed where.So you don’t think anything is politicised?
You don’t think that people in public organisations are told how to think and speak?
You don’t think that the media and political parties are uncomfortably close?
You don’t think that perhaps, in the case of S Yorks, the vacuum of opposition (understandably) created during the miner’s strike and the pit closures couldn’t have created any cronyism or complacency?
Geroge Orwell
In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.LiferFree MemberPosted 9 years agoAnd in the case of UKIP
What people believe prevails over the truth.
chipFree MemberPosted 9 years agoThis + 1400
You know that the evidence points towards that they targeted Asian women as well and did not preferentially target white girls, it’s just that the cultural attitudes within the Asian community have meant those girls have often not come forward.I don’t care what colour the girls were they targeted.
What I get from that post Is they may be the worst type of depraved scum, but they weren’t racist .
diggaFree MemberPosted 9 years ago@Lifer, nice Is that from the Ladybird book of UKIP bashing?
In any case, it does not really matter what you or I think about the party in regard to this case, but it is lamentable that the couple were persecuted solely for involvement with ‘a party’ which is now the main opposition in their constituency. It does not seem democratic in the least.
Tom_W1987Free MemberPosted 9 years agoSo you don’t think anything is politicised?
You don’t think that people in public organisations are told how to think and speak?You don’t think that the media and political parties are uncomfortably close?
You don’t think that perhaps, in the case of S Yorks, the vacuum of opposition (understandably) created during the miner’s strike and the pit closures couldn’t have created any cronyism or complacency?
Do you think political parties send out directives to social services, to flaunt their own procedures and take children away from good hard working UKIPers?
persecuted solely for involvement with ‘a party’ which is now the main opposition in their constituency. It does not seem democratic in the least.
So you don’t actually care about the children then, all you care about are the poor ickle middle englanders? You think that fostering a child is a right? That it’s all about the foster parents? What about the rights of the child?
They were ‘persecuted’ because social services decided the foster parents cultural identity wasn’t close enough to that of the childs, this is a judgement they make everyday in fostering cases.
mudmuncherFull MemberPosted 9 years agoThis + 1400
You know that the evidence points towards that they targeted Asian women as well and did not preferentially target white girls, it’s just that the cultural attitudes within the Asian community have meant those girls have often not come forward.Not all Asians, they left the Muslim girls alone. They targetted white girls and Asian Sikhs. I believe the first people who raised the alarm about this abuse were from the Sikh community but they were accused of being racist.
chipFree MemberPosted 9 years agoDo you think political parties send out directives to social services, to flaunt their own procedures and take children away from good hard working UKIPers?
Small minded people with a little bit of power making decisions based on the own bigotry towards other peoples rightful political views.
Tom_W1987Free MemberPosted 9 years agoNot all Asians, they left the Muslim girls alone. They targetted white girls and Asian Sikhs. I believe the first people who raised the alarm about this abuse were from the Sikh community but they were accused of being racist.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-22731537
Not many Sikhs from Pakistan. LOL.
Small minded peopleProfessionals with a little bit of power making decisions based on evidence based practicebadnewzFree MemberPosted 9 years agoRemember the context a bit, perhaps.
This is a good point, the overall context has a great deal of gravity.
That’s partly why I decided not to continue on this thread. Ultimately horrific acts of injustice have been committed, and I feel uncomfortable forwarding my politics, which I freely admit are right-wing, on a public forum and getting involved in a game of one-upmanship. I think that would be wrong. But civility is a virtue, and although myself and Tom are hardly back-slapping, I’d rather leave a conversation on a good note than a vindictive one. As I said, I hope justice is served, but at the end of the day a discussion on Singletrackworld is rather meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
Tom_W1987Free MemberPosted 9 years agoA council that sparked outrage after taking three eastern European children away from their Ukip-supporting foster parents has apologised over its handling of the case after a review concluded that mistakes were made but the decision was taken in the children’s best interests.
LOL
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/20/council-mistakes-ukip-foster-parents
That’s partly why I decided not to continue on this thread. Ultimately horrific acts of injustice have been committed, and I feel uncomfortable forwarding my politics, which I freely admit are right-wing, on a public forum and getting involved in a game of one-upmanship.
Fair enough badnewz. You make a good point with the last sentence. I guess we are both getting at the same thing here, using children as political one upmanship etc instead of having their best interests at heart.
ninfanFree MemberPosted 9 years agoDo you think political parties send out directives to social services, to flaunt their own procedures and take children away from good hard working UKIPers?
No, I think cultural norms develop within organisations that serve to develop and engender a view of what is ‘acceptable’ or that leads to things not being questioned, often leading to totally unacceptable behaviour becoming not just tolerated in the name of ‘the greater good’ but effectively normalised.
This can happen with both obviously negative things, like racism & corruption, (as happened in the past with the police) and things that are initially done for the best of misguided reasons, like for example taking children away from young unwed mothers as ‘unfit’ and then adopted or stolen from aboriginal ‘savages’ and native american families and put in childrens homes or fostered in ‘white’ households as happened in Australia and the USA.
diggaFree MemberPosted 9 years agoTom_W1987 – Member
Do you think political parties send out directives to social services, to flaunt their own procedures and take children away from good hard working UKIPers?I think from the revelations in regard to other matters, such as the Elm Guest House, it is clear they do that and worse, so yes. To answer another of your questions, it makes me unhappy for all the children caught up in these issues.
However, it intrigues me how the “vote red or blue” gravy train work their influence on many levels. The media is awash with soundbites – you’ve used on such, “Middle Englander” – that have been invented, appropriated, or twisted to infer insult and belittle opposition.
It interests me – Media Studies in the classical meaning of the name – that people can’t see when they’re being played.
mudmuncherFull MemberPosted 9 years agoNot many Sikhs from Pakistan. LOL.
Er, yes we know that thanks, what is your point?
Tom_W1987Free MemberPosted 9 years agoFrom aboriginal families and put in childrens homes or fostered in ‘white’ households.
Aaaand…. how have you just not shot yourself in the foot there?
In November after the case made national headlines, the council’s strategic director of children and young people’s services, Joyce Thacker, told the BBC that her decision had been influenced by Ukip immigration policy, which she said called for the end of the “active promotion of multiculturalism“.
Sources close to the case subsequently told the Guardian that there were multiple legal and social reasons why the council wanted to ensure the children be placed with foster parents who spoke their own eastern European language.
Social services on mental health grounds like to place children with families that encourage the awareness of the childs own culture.
chipFree MemberPosted 9 years agoThe children where Eastern European 😀
Mental note to self: must research facts and not wade in blindly from memory.Small minded people Professionals with a little bit of power making decisions based on evidence based practice
I do not believe that at all.
Tom_W1987Free MemberPosted 9 years agoThe children where Eastern European
You’re saying that just because they were white, it was okay?
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