This is exactly what needs to be done, you had your chance and blew it
I'm beginning to think all this aggressive talk from the right of purges betrays a worry that Starmer isn't going to do what they want. He's said very plainly that the shadow cabinet will be balanced and that his primary aim is unity. That means it's going to need to include some from the left, and that mean RLB. The blairite resurgence is not going to happen, and in electing Starmer that's not what the membership voted for.
“the right” … it’s just Binners for god sake, not the brown shirts
it’s just Binners for god sake
I'm not talking about Binners, I'm talking about the prominent blairites who are all over twitter etc who are saying what Binners is repeating. They doth protest too much I think.
This is exactly what needs to be done, you had your chance and blew it spectacularly causing so far five years of tory rule
So nothing to do with the moderates who were more interested in destroying the left than beating the tories? The more I see the frothing and ideological extremism from the moderates the more I think Corbyn should have done what the lunatics tried to claim he was doing and booted a bunch out.
Blair won by appealing to a wider range of voter, alot of them tory,
That worked for a time. Which is the thing the moderate lunatics dont seem capable of understanding. You can only fool your core voters for so long.
Blair knew that hence why he walked away when he did. He left the mess for everyone else to clear up including large numbers of people who “don’t do politics” because they spent years in a system that didnt care about them because they werent swing voters. Honestly I cant blame them for it. Why bother when the parties will take your vote and ignore you.
Here is the thing.
Labour shouldnt really appeal massively to people like me.
Neither should the tories.
Should be primarily Lib dems or the Greens.
By having either of the others appeal to me it is telling a large number of their existing voters to piss off. Then where do they go?
By having either of the others appeal to me it is telling a large number of their existing voters to piss off. Then where do they go?
But they aren't the majority of the electorate.
Appeal to your core support or get elected seems to be the choice
Remember amongst all the rewriting of history Corbyn in 17 got more votes than Blair did in his last victory
Oh - and please stop referring to the labour right as " moderates". they are not. Starmer is a moderate ie in the middle of the party. Benn and co are on the right of the party and in many ways sit closer to the tory party politically
closer to the tory party politically
No, they really aren’t.
Appeal to your core support or get elected seems to be the choice
If your core vote is shrinking and you have no chance of being elected, what's the point? To always be in opposition for the sake of it?
YOu think Kelvin? I disagree. They would be quite happy on the left of the tories
RLB has education, then.
And the wrong Miliband returns!
El-bent
MemberBlair won by appealing to a wider range of voter, alot of them tory
Blair won by inheriting a winning hand from John Smith (and John Major, to be fair). Everything he changed was because he wanted to, not because he needed to, and it did not give them a win- though it probably made it a bigger win.
IMO one of modern Labour's biggest issues is that they've basically forgotten Smith, and totally bought into "Blair made Labour electable".
Starmer is a moderate ie in the middle of the party.
Nobody knows what position Starmer will take in 2024. The Torys will have a stonking great debt that (rightly or wrongly) they will run up so they're going to have to defend debt and sell it as a good thing. They 100pc cannot stand on a fiscal resonsibility ticket. Plus Boris has shown himself more than willing to get the chequebook out to buy votes so he might just outbid any porkbarrel Labour offer.
In that context it's hard to imagine Starmer going into an election saying 'Yeah, borrowing is great.'. So maybe he has to sell Labour as the party of fiscal responsibility. (*All* the parties in 2010 stood on a platform of reducing the deficit.)
I think Starmer's gravity and competence is going to be a bit vote winner. Boris's apporval ratings in the election were already poor and the inquiry into CV could be a disaster for him. So it's looking good for Starmer but he won't have the freedom of policy choice he'd like.
It may still be hard to picture at this point, but Johnson might not want a second term come 2024. We have no idea what Starmer will be fighting years from now, and so I expect there to be a lot of caution and a lot of keeping options open in the next few years for Labour.
In that context it’s hard to imagine Starmer going into an election saying ‘Yeah, borrowing is great.’. So maybe he has to sell Labour as the party of fiscal responsibility. (*All* the parties in 2010 stood on a platform of reducing the deficit.)
Yes they would all have to tell the truth for a change - the deficit is actually fiscally logical. Meaning that there is money in the private sector with a larger deficit. When the government doesn't spend the economy drops into flat-line, which is what we've seen pre-Covid. Hence the big spend programme.
I've got a feeling the way we should understand debt and deficit and how the Tories have played this 'household' budget narrative is going to strain them in the long run.
I will be amazed if the narrative changes though, as you're right parties tow this line.
It's going to change though as quick as Trump issues a 2.2 trillion dollar check.
It may still be hard to picture at this point, but Johnson might not want a second term come 2024.
I'd agree. Christ he might have to retire for health reasons. We have no idea what's coming. (Except a recession and a mountain of debt that will make 2008 seem like the good old days.)
We have no idea what Starmer will be fighting years from now, and so I expect there to be a lot of caution and a lot of keeping options open in the next few years for Labour.
Agree again. This government could easily wreck itself on Corona Virus and/or EU negotiations. The least Labour say for the next 24 months the better.
Shadow cabinet out in full. I do not know every name on it but overall happy. No real option but Murray for scottish sec and RLB gets education Disappointing to see Falconer back but there is not a lot of experience in that shadow cabinet. Glad to see no place for Cooper.
“the right” … it’s just Binners for god sake, not the brown shirts
The irony there is that those of us who advocate mainstream European social democratic policies are derided as "Trots".
Never mind all that! Ed Millibean is back?! WTF?!!! 😳
The irony there is that those of us who advocate mainstream European social democratic policies are derided as “Trots”.
Describes me, and a lot of the people you’re so quick to denounce. I’ve not been called a “trot” yet. There is a certain kind of left leaning person that sees everyone else as the enemy though… or collaborators, or whatever. You can see how they elicit that kind of response. And, of course, there are those that left the communist, and explicitly anti European, anti Social Democratic left wing groups to join Labour when Corbyn became leader. Even I might call them trots, after a few drinks.
I think the repeated suggestions that Richard start a breakaway party would be fantastic in ensuring the comedy continues. He’d need to get some new badges though 😂
Describes me, and a lot of the people you’re so quick to denounce.
I think that any cursory examination of the Corbyn and Labour Party threads would show that most of the abuse is aimed in the other direction.
I’m not talking about the weight of negative reactions and commentary in general, you could well be correct about that. I’m suggesting that the support for “European Social Democracy” and “trot” accusation don’t go hand in hand at all. Those that came from Communist and far left groups to Labour were mostly anti-European and against Social Democracy, they see it as the enemy of “real socialism”. See the Straight Left people, especially those that were in the Communist Party of Britain.
Bloody Marxists!
Let’s avoid this turning into a history bore off, and look forward.
Andrew Murray is gone now though, yes?
Remember amongst all the rewriting of history Corbyn in 17 got more votes than Blair did in his last victory
Still winning the argument.........
Never mind all that! Ed Millibean is back?! WTF?!!! 😳
I'm looking forward to 20k plus air miles a year Miliband telling us we need to pay more for basic necessities as part of a climate change strategy
Or "rewrite my dad's will to avoid inheritance tax" Miliband telling us to pay more tax for public services
How much many membership fees did it cost to get rid of Milne?
Lammy!
About time.
I'm suggesting that the support for “European Social Democracy” and “trot” accusation don’t go hand in hand at all
I agree, it's a ridiculous line of attack.
Well Binners - you've got Ben Nunn in place of Milne.
I hope you're going to give his historical corporate / public flip flop a hard time...
Lammy!
About time.
Im so stoked about this - hes amazing he talks with such clarity and conviction. Overall im not too mad at the cabinet although ed miliband coming back has proper thrown me.
I do wish everyone would get behind the party I feel the infighting has cost us over the year and it would be nice for it to end. I get people wanted to see a continuation of Corbyn its not what eve have ended up with.
Its utterly absurd and shows just how little understanding of the true political situation is that people and policies get called "hard left" for wanting things that are the norm in the european social democratic tradition
you’ve got Ben Nunn in place of Milne.
I hope you’re going to give his historical corporate / public flip flop a hard time…
I'd never heard of Ben Nunn but a quick google suggests he's exactly the sort of person required in every sense.
In contrast Seamus Milne was a total embarrassment. The only thing Milne has over Nunn that I can see is Oxbridge rather than Birmingham.
So no, I doubt anyone could think of any sane case to give Nunn a "hard time". In contrast Milne was the easiest of targets.
people and policies get called “hard left” for wanting things that are the norm in the european social democratic tradition
True enough.
And then there are the anti-European anti-social-democrat people that Corbyn brought into key roles in Labour. There were plenty of people who were never going to vote to let those kind of people into no.10, even if they like the policies the party were putting forward. You have to trust who you are giving power to when in the voting booth, not just what is in their manifesto. When I voted I held my nose and hoped the Labour MPs and members, or the SNP and others, would somehow keep the back room men in check if Labour did get into power.
Overall im not too mad at the cabinet
No one will be. It is broad, so most people will be pleased with some appointments, and dismayed by others. If Starmer gets it right, there should be someone for everyone… but no one will be pleased with all the appointments. I think he has been getting it right as it happens… most appointments are people already on top of the brief they are given… and the team will change over the next few years anyway.
Lammy though. Let’s hope that works out. He’s a proper talent in my book. Such a good move to give him that role.
Is it my imagination, or is STW in agreement that Starmer has put together a decent cabinet?
I think the return of Miliband is the biggest contention. In the last few years I think he’s proven himself, and he can definitely do the role he’s been given, but not sure it gives a good “moving forward” message to the general public.
For the first time in ages I’m feeling hopeful so yes
I think the return of Miliband is the biggest contention.
My memory is so poor, remind me, what did Ed do wrong?
To me the really questionable appointment is Falconer. Milliband I do not mind
Starmer had to include some more experienced people and too many of the potential candidates are badly tarnished so it would be hard for him to find those experienced folk
Milliband is experienced and able.
Is it my imagination, or is STW in agreement
It'll never happen!
I see the " Starmer let Saville off" attack line is already gaining traction. We will see a lot more of this
but not sure it gives a good “moving forward” message to the general public.
I have a gut feeling most of the general public will maybe remember him as the guy who turned up and didn't get in, but at the same time didn't leave much of a lasting impression. I guess there has to be benefit in prior experience in the cabinet and he might well be the relatively uncontentious choice, in the role he's in.
He wasn't great at eating bacon sandwiches
I see the ” Starmer let Saville off” attack line is already gaining traction.
No it isn't. I haven't even heard it and nobody is going to believe it.
We will see a lot more of this
We won't. Corbyn was the gift the kept giving. People were posting long spreadsheets of insane/unpopular/downright wrong things Corbyn and his henchmen had done/said. We are going to see far, far less of this stuff. Starmer just hasn't provided the material for his detractors. (He has less detractors too!)
I think the return of Miliband is the biggest contention.
Not really - it's pretty easy to justify on the basis of him doing the job in the last Labour government. I'm not Binners so don't object to him because he was on the losing side.
I see the ” Starmer let Saville off” attack line is already gaining traction.
No it isn’t. I haven’t even heard it and nobody is going to believe it.
A very quick Google will sadly prove this otherwise.
Please don't Google that story. It will only bump it up the page.
A very quick Google will sadly prove this otherwise.
It doesn't. By definition the DoPP can be accused of letting off every single person that the department couldn't prosecute, but nobody's going to buy that logic. It isn't gaining any traction at all it's bollocks. It won't cost him a single vote.
It isn’t gaining any traction at all it’s bollocks
Sadly it has gained traction - some of my 'friends' on Facebook have already shared and commented on it. These are the same people who believed all the xenophobic narrative around Brexit and Boris's lies.
He wasn’t great at eating bacon sandwiches
And his dad was a trot. I quite like Ed Miliband, he's been given the brief that will have most input on climate change/green new deal and has proposed some quite radical stuff whilst on the backbenches so I'm expecting more of that. After RLB he's the next best choice to formulate Labour climate change policies.
Although he lost an election, which according to some on here means he should be banished forever.
It doesn’t. By definition the DoPP can be accused of letting off every single person that the department couldn’t prosecute, but nobody’s going to buy that logic. It isn’t gaining any traction at all it’s bollocks. It won’t cost him a single vote.
People believe 5g causes Coronavirus.
Although he lost an election, which according to some on here means he should be banished forever.
Said who?
Anyway, I think he’s ideal for the role in terms of skills, knowledge, aptitude and policy direction, just worried about the optics about appointing a past figurehead when Labour needs to not be seen to be looking backwards.
Sadly it has gained traction – some of my ‘friends’ on Facebook have already shared and commented on it. These are the same people who believed all the xenophobic narrative around Brexit and Boris’s lies.
So not potential voters for Labour under Starmer. This won't cost him a single vote. It's nothing. It's like David Cameron's Pig story.
Said who?
You have a very short memory. Were you not reading yesterday's exchanges?
No one has said that being part of the losing team at any of the last four elections is reason enough to exclude anyone from the new cabinet, or all future cabinets. Hell, we’ve all welcomed the leadership result, so that would make no sense at all. There are some from the most recent team that really did need kicking into touch, and they have been, thankfully, but not just because they were ‘part of a losing team’ or ‘lost an election’.
[strong]outofbreath[/strong] wrote:
I see the ” Starmer let Saville off” attack line is already gaining traction.
No it isn’t. I haven’t even heard it and nobody is going to believe it.
We will see a lot more of this
e.g... Post 14. And that isn't the first smear on that thread.
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/sir-keir-starmer.314136/
OOB
Don't be naive. The attack dogs have been preparing for this for a while. Look what they did to Milliband. Look how they went after Corbyn
The articles in the rightwing papers have already started
Expect to see them pushing the "soft on peados"
Edit also given his work in human rights cases expect the " terrorists friend" line and of course "champagne socialist"
Don’t be naive. The attack dogs have been preparing for this for a while. Look what they did to Milliband. Look how they went after Corbyn
The articles in the rightwing papers have already started
Expect to see them pushing the “soft on peados”
Edit also given his work in human rights cases expect the ” terrorists friend” line and of course “champagne socialist”
None of it has wings and compared to the boat load of genuine material Corbyn and McDonnell had been handing to the media over decades it's nothing. If it did have wings (it doesn't) it's the sort of weak crap they had on Cameron (investments, pig) and Miliband (how he ate a bacon sandwich) that made zero impact nothing remarkable.
Maybe Starmer does have some skeletons in his closet. I doubt it. Time will tell.
You really don't think the attacks on Milliband had no effect? Father a traitor who hates this country? that sort of thing. How about Foot and his "disresectful jacket"
Corbyn they kept on trying different lines of attack until they found one that stuck - antisemitism - despite no one ever producing a single antisemitic thing he had done.
You watch - the attack dogs will be after him with real vigour inventing stuff to attack him with and its already started.
And jumping to the defence of Russia when it was taking the piss, of course. Probably Milne&Murray’s fault, and may have seemed a “measured approach” to Corbyn, but to lots of people you’d expect to vote Labour, especially in the North, he wasn’t on their side, he was on Russia’s side.
“ Can I just finish…?!? ”
Anyway, the Corbyn thread is full of this, let’s leave it there. Your attempts to dilute everything down to a conspiracy around anti-semitism is unfounded and plain wrong though. He was attacked on many fronts, and much of it stuck, and some of it was his own fault, and the fault of his choice of inner circle of advisers.
And jumping to the defence of Russia when it was taking the piss, of course.
Aside from he didnt. He just mentioned the tedious idea of actually having evidence. Whereas the muppets lied about evidence and undermined the case before getting tough on twitter and then achieving, what exactly?
That this attack is repeated without thinking shows just how easy it is to get the smears started.
Pretty amazing given how the brexiteer elite and the tories are in the pocket of the new Russian elite.
As it said, probable seemed fair and reasoned to Corbyn, but to many voters he picked sides when Russia carried out hits on foreign soil, while Putin and his people were openly making fun of us over it.
All been done. Go to the thread. I just can’t let the idea that it was all about anti-semitism stand unchallenged. The number of successful attack angles open to Corbyn detractors was numerous, and many stuck, and some of them were made so so easy by Corbyn and his team. Being seen to share Russian disinformation at a time when tensions were high was just the example I picked. Any more discussion about all this, I’m happy to do join in with in the other thread, not clog up this one. Hopefully TJ will do the same.
That this attack is repeated without thinking shows just how easy it is to get the smears started.
The thing is, once people have heard something, they can't unhear it.
Most people just double down on their original (mis)belief when presented with actual evidence that this belief is wrong.
Modern politics is boiling down to who is spamming up Facebook, and little more. The fake news, if you will. It's the curse of our age.
As it said, probable seemed fair and reasoned to Corbyn, but to many voters he picked sides when Russia carried out hits on foreign soi
The point though is I would expect anyone who isnt a blowhard moron in the pocket of the russian oligarchs to have taken the same position of actually wanting evidence rather than sending threats on ****ing twitter.
I would certainly expect a lawyer and former head of the CPS to actually act professionally rather than like a child and do the lets gather evidence rather than lie about it.
Milliband in the cabinet isn't really new, previous leadership didn't hamper Hague, IDS or David Davis did it?
No it isn’t. I haven’t even heard it and nobody is going to believe it.
Except the people that were talking about it in work last night. It's happening, deal with it.
Political advertising is (mercifully) banned on British TV. Why can't we ban social media advertising too?
The rest of the team have been announced. God, I really want this lot in government. It’s not just who is in the “minor” roles, but how well suited they are for the roles they have given. Smart people are calling the shots. This looks a government in waiting more than any shadow cabinet for a long, long time.
Kelvin,
Yes, as I said on another thread (can't remember which one, I get confused!) This line up looks way more competent than the current cabinet of curiosities. Even RLB in the education post makes some sort of sense, (don't rate her at all but understand someone from the left had to be in there to placate the marxist wing) great to see Nandy as shadow foreign secretary.
Don't screw things up by propping up the government, Were not all in this together, we're being dragged through the mud by a bunch of chancers, they look terrified at the daily briefings and they must see that the shadow cabinet now looks far more competent and confident than they do.
Now ban the use of the word socialism unless prefaced by the word corporate and apply it to the Tories. We know what a hard time they'll be given by the gutter press (Telegraph now included in that segment of the media) So don't give them any ammunition if you can help it.
From now on I'm going to refer to the Conservatives as the Corporate Socialist Party. Because that's what they are. The biggest danger to the country right now is how the CSP will exploit coronavirus by bailing out all their mates leaving the rest of us drowning.
I'm going to bore the s*** out of everyone with this as I believe it's the strategy Labour should follow. Don't take an anti capitalist stance, reclaim the word by claiming the Tories have abandoned capitalism in favour of Corporate Socialism. Capitalism should be about competition not monopolies, capitalism needs diversity and innovation in business not corporate raiding and cronyism. Champion small and medium sized businesses, encourage localism rather than Globalism.
Capitalism needs solid social institutions in order to both survive and thrive. Social institutions aren't socialist, they are the fabric upon which prosperity and opportunity for all are woven.
I'll stop now, got to go and bang some pots and pans.
I really want this lot in government. It’s not just who is in the “minor” roles, but how well suited they are for the roles they have given. Smart people are calling the shots. This looks a government in waiting more than any shadow cabinet for a long, long time.
Yup. Labour have cracked it AFAIC. They've sorted themselves out in a one-er. Getting the NEC back as well, that wasn't a certainty, but they've done it.
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1248148683822071809?s=19
It's early days - but if this was Corbyn you'd be pulling him to pieces on such a shoddy presentation.
It looks like an interview from a random stranger.
Dear god. Hope it's only warm up act.
It’s early days – but if this was Corbyn you’d be pulling him to pieces on such a shoddy presentation.
Actually I hadn't seen it, but you're right, it's mental:
I’m calling on the Government to publish its exit strategy.
I’m not calling for precise timings, but the strategy.
We don't know how many people have already had it. We don't know when a working antibody test will be available in large numbers. We don't know when a vaccine will be available if ever. We don't know if/when the reagents shortage will end. It's totally impossible to come up with an exit strategy from what we know right now. No country in the world has published an exit strategy at this stage it's ludicrous!
At the moment all they can do is keep using lockdowns to try to control the number of people turning up at hospitals and see what comes along in the way of tests/vaccines/treatments.
We might not be able to work out what the specific strategy will be best, but the options are all very well known. If Starmer can't work out the various potential exit strategies depending on circumstances there's a real bloody problem, jesus most STWers could do that!
Mind ewe, that is twitter, it probably won't get into the mainstream media so maybe it's aimed at his existing supporters rather than voters in general.
Either way, I is dissapoint. 🙁
Is it just me, or is Keir just a little bit rosy-cheeked in a Charles Kennedy sort of way?
Yup. Labour have cracked it AFAIC.
Calm down dear. It won't be long before people tire of his charisma-free barrister cold-ness and start criticising him because he's not a 'character'. He may be the best of a bad bunch but lets not forget that labour have elected a leader who a couple of years ago everyone would have laughed if you'd said he'd be the saviour of the labour party. Roll on Angela Rayner in 4 years time 😉
Rone,
Yup, that was pretty disappointing, sounded just like Corbyn. He should be telling the government what their strategy should be, not asking them what it is because we know they don't and never have had one.
I'd have voted for Nandy if I were a member, always thought Starmer was boring.
Dazh,
It's not just you, he does look a bit rosy cheeked, maybe he's been drinking Corona.
Gone very quiet on here, much like our glorious saviour. 1000s of people dying, healthcare workers still without sutable PPE (or being accused of using too much of it), and everyone obsessing about the health of the man responsible, and all we get is a couple of tweets and a statement on the doorstep meekly requesting that they give us a bit more info. Is this what 'credible opposition' and 'holding the government to account' looks like? Pull your finger out Keir.
I’m not sure what you’re complaining about, or asking for, really. Have a beer.
I’m not sure what you’re complaining about, or asking for, really.
Nothing really. Was bored 🙂
Seriously though, what exactly is going on? We're now clocking up more C19 deaths than Italy were (and not counting lots of them in carehomes) and labour seems to have gone on holiday for the easter weekend. Seems like Alastair Cambell is doing most of the opposing at the moment. I can only imagine what people would be saying had Corbyn been at the helm (this might be a regular feature BTW!).