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how does that tally with being anti-UK when Scotland has much more in common with the rest of the UK than Europe? It just doesn’t seem very consistent to me.
Easy. I dont feel that i have more in common with the England. I look to the nordic countries and low countries and feel more incommon with them
It doesn't matter what the government in Westminster is. Its going to be shit for us. Two cheeks of tbe same arse
Also my petsonal circumstances make it hard to give a shit
Ernie thats a lighthearted rant about the postets on here. Should have had a 😀
Ernie is right in that if the plp had got behind Corbyn the results would have been very different. Some of them would rather have a tory government than a lefty pm.
So Immediately after wiping the slate clean and ditching all of Labour's manifesto commitments, and Starmer claiming Labour would be starting "from scratch" the very first new policy that Labour suggests is the creation of a "National Care Service", based on the National Health Service :
The Guardian: Labour to aim to launch national care service inspired by creation of NHS.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/03/labours-wes-streeting-launches-review-to-plan-for-national-care-service
Which is the same policy as was in the 2017 and 2019 election manifestos.
I am not complaining, far from it, but I am a little surprised that the very first policy announcement since starting from scratch should be an old recycled policy.
You would have thought that it might have been something a bit more new and unique. Perhaps Starmer is struggling with new ideas?
Ernie is right in that if the plp had got behind Corbyn the results would have been very different.
That's not really the point I was trying to make, although obviously true.
The point I was making is that voters opinions of Corbyn will have been influenced by the fact that much of the PLP was publicly questioning whether Corbyn was fit to be PM and accusing him of being a racist whilst also mounting a leadership challenge against him.
Is it really surprising that many voters had a problem with Corbyn? Can you imagine that sort of campaign against Johnson before the 2019 general election? Would voters not have had more of a problem with Johnson had he experienced the same treatment? Would the Tories have won such a landslide?
The poll was conducted on the weekend after he won the Tory leadership election and became PM. Do you think Johnson became more popular with voters after he became PM?
It's still not a poll on people's thoughts before an election.
The poll was conducted on the weekend after he won the Tory leadership election and became PM. Do you think Johnson became more popular with voters after he became PM?
It's still not a poll on people's thoughts before an election which I do think are a certain frame of mind. It's possible to have buyer's remorse.
Whilst I won’t dispute Corbyn’s lack of popularity you are hardly comparing like for like. Do you honestly think that Johnson would have won a landslide if his own MPs had claimed that he was absolutely shite prime ministerial material and were queuing up to denounce him as a racist and forcing leadership elections?
One way or another something is shaping the popularity. So I'd say Corbyn was less popular as a result in part from the Labour PLP and their treasonous attitude.
Johnson was clearly more popular in part due to the fact the Tories supported him.
You can't extrapolate popularity from the circumstances that may have created it.
The poll was conducted on the weekend after he won the Tory leadership election and became PM. Do you think Johnson became more popular with voters after he became PM?
It's still not a poll on people's thoughts before an election which I do think are a certain frame of mind. It's possible to have buyer's remorse.
Whilst I won’t dispute Corbyn’s lack of popularity you are hardly comparing like for like. Do you honestly think that Johnson would have won a landslide if his own MPs had claimed that he was absolutely shite prime ministerial material and were queuing up to denounce him as a racist and forcing leadership elections?
One way or another something is shaping the popularity. So I'd say Corbyn was less popular as a result in part from the Labour PLP and their treasonous attitude.
Johnson was clearly more popular in part due to the fact the Tories supported him.
You can't extrapolate popularity from the circumstances that may have created it.
Labour PLP and their treasonous attitude.
So do you think the fact that Corbyn was serially "treasonous" his entire political career may have had an impact on how his colleagues may have regarded him as leader? Ultimately political parties are a team, Corbyn spent his political career playing largely against his own team.
So do you think the fact that Corbyn was serially “treasonous” his entire political career may have had an impact on how his colleagues may have regarded him as leader?
Look - Ian Austin sent me a letter asking me not to vote for Corbyn. Can you seriously get more treasonous than that? His own party at the time.
Same sentiment from my local MP John Mann. Bunch of hawks.
In what way is Corbyn treasonous - it's the PLP's shift away from supporting its own values that is treasonous.
I mean look at the state of them.
Corbyn would have been a magnitude better for the country than this shower and the PLP played their part. Treasonous.
If you even look at the way a centrist operates they get angry at the state of things (while it's current) but not prepared to change anything substantially enough to make a difference.
Let's have a laugh at change UK whilst were at it - they furthered the cause didn't they? Their own cause that is.
In what way? Voting for the right things?
im not saying he didn’t vote with his conscious, I’m sure he felt strongly about all the votes he made, but the fact remains that he was *the* most rebellious MP, voting what? Over 400 times against the whip while Labour was in power* The was no way that the rest of the PLP was just going to shrug and say “ah, now you’re leader, the rest of us will just fall in line” and not have a perspective about a bloke who’d never been a team player saying let’s all be on the same side. It’s fantastical thinking
the very first time he has to have a conversation with an MP about loyalty, or about voting with the Labour whip; his own record gets thrown back at him.
Wasn't the 2019 manifesto was put together by a team which Starmer has now decided to jettison so he can reposition the party to the right of its members?
Why are they so sodding scared of suggesting, actually, this was a really bad idea and maybe we could do something else? We all now know there's no good Brexit. This just precludes that coalition with the LDs and any credibility with remain/rejoiners which by now I suspect is the majority.
I don't get it.
Corbyn spent his political career playing largely against his own team.
Did he?
Or did he play against his own team when his own team swapped shirts?
not quite so simple
The was no way that the rest of the PLP was just going to shrug and say “ah, now you’re leader, the rest of us will just fall in line”
Do we really have to do this again? As I've pointed out many times, there's an enormous difference between voting against the govt in parliament on a point of principle, and calling your leader a 'f***** racist' or telling voters not to vote for your party. Labour MPs weren't opposing Corbyn on a point of principle, they were being spiteful petulant children who couldn't accept that they had lost in a democratic vote.
Even at the height of the Iraq war and after I don't ever recall Corbyn calling Blair a war criminal or telling voters not to vote labour, even though he would have been justified given the evidence of Blair's lies and deception. He never wavered from campaigning for the labour party and labour candidates. FFS, even now after they tried to kick him out of the party he's not said anything against it.
I don’t get it.
A large portion of the leave vote was labour supporters. I don't think that it's practical (or possible) to campaign for or try to negotiate a way back in to the single market so quickly - not least I think is that the EU will be mindful that the next Tory govt will likely try to reverse it again.
That time has passed, we now need to make the best of what we've got.
This just precludes that coalition with the LDs and any credibility with remain/rejoiners which by now I suspect is the majority.
First off the Lib Dems would ever enter into a coalition with Labour, and recent history suggests the exact opposite would be more likely. Secondly there's no evidence of a majority for rejoining the EU. Like it or not the only option is to make being outside the EU work. Labour lost the last election after adopting a policy which enabled the cancelling of brexit. They'll lose the next one and many after that if they even talk about rejoining. It's pretty much the only thing that Starmer has got right, and it's a pity he didn't adopt this position in the run up to thee 2019 election, we might not have a tory govt right now.
the fact that Corbyn was serially “treasonous” his entire political career
There is nothing treasonous about voting in line with the values and aims of the Labour Party. The same can't be said about those who vote in clear defiance of Labour values and aims.
Corbyn has voted consistently throughout his parliamentary career exactly as you would expect a Labour MP to vote, which undoubtedly was a significant reason why the majority of party members supported him in the 2 leadership elections.
In contrast many in the PLP have consistently voted in a shockingly Tory manner, such as in favour of privatisation and war. There is a reason why they sing the Red Flag at the end of a Labour Party Conference, some people should pay attention to the words, especially the reference to "traitors".
The was no way that the rest of the PLP was just going to shrug and say “ah, now you’re leader, the rest of us will just fall in line”
Why not? On two occasions Corbyn was elected leader by clear unambiguous majorities - the largest mandate of any previous Labour Leader, and larger than the current Leader.
Otherwise what exactly is the point of putting it to the membership, if the PLP can simply refuse to work with any leader they don't approve of?
I may have stuck up for Starmer before, and may have even voted for him...but not after reading this, thismorning.
Just...wow...
I don’t get it.
That's probably because you don't see Starmer as a dishonest opportunitist and political careerist.
I suspect that the driving force behind Starmer's support for Remain was similar to what drove Johnson to support Leave - political expediency, and what best supports their career prospects.
That’s probably because you don’t see Starmer as a dishonest opportunitist and political careerist.
Unfortunatley, this. I for one, stand corrected 🙁
I may have stuck up for Starmer before, and may have even voted for him…but not after reading this, thismorning.
He's simply the latest in a long line of Labour leaders who are terrified to say what they really believe on immigration. Apart from one of course, who was always honest about the need for immigration and the issues surrounding it. No one wanted to listen to him though because his MPs were calling him a racist. 🤷🏻♂️
Starmer not wanting cause division but now will be hiving off to the libdems.
What a mess.
We all know what you don't want Starmzy - but what do you want apart from insulation, 5% off energy and small business rate cuts?
Staggering reach them.
Come on Durham sort him out.
It’s pretty much the only thing that Starmer has got right, and it’s a pity he didn’t adopt this position in the run up to thee 2019 election, we might not have a tory govt right now.
This.
These idiots couldnt see it coming and now want to patch it.
Come on Durham sort him out.
IMO the most likely outcome if Durham Constabulary concludes that Starmer did in fact break lockdown rules is that they will simply say so but not issue him with a fixed penalty notice.
This will give Starmer the schoolboy pedantic excuse "I only said that I would resign if I was fined".
The threat of resignation has of course had the effect of pressurising the police not to issue a FPN as they are made aware of the political consequences of their action. Durham police won't want to be seen as directly responsible for a senior politician's political downfall.
Starmer to set out Labour’s Brexit policy, saying rejoining single market would ‘be recipe for more division’
Why rule it out, there is no bloody need at this point? In a year's time, the widening gap between our economic prospects and those of EU countries, and the impact on working people ought to be even more obvious. At which point it is imperative that not just the LibDems are saying rejoin the single market. Why chain yourself to this ****ing millstone into 2024?
It seems like Labour ought to be pointing out that the results of losing market access - recession, inflation and austerity are the true causes of division in the people they are claiming to represent.
A shrinking percentage of the electorate still wants this shit, it is likely that well over half now understand what we have done to ourselves. But no-one is representing us. Is that not fuelling division too?
Durham police won’t want to be seen as directly responsible for a senior politician’s political downfall.
They can't win either way - if they phrase it as you've suggested, there would be intense political pressure to issue an FPN as the PM got one for 'just having a bit of cake'.
Never voted Labour. Voted to the left and right of them.
Never voted tory. I won't say I wouldn't vote tory, but it would be have to be a cats living with dogs, rain falling upwards, weird world for me to do that.
I'm that most odious of voters, the "swing voter" (Groovy baby! Let's swing!).
AKA a kingmaker.
Had "moved" towards voting Labour but this brexit statement?...
I'm now backing way... smiling and nodding, smiling and nodding...
Had “moved” towards voting Labour but this brexit statement?…
I look forward to the usual suspects posting their 'any vote which isn't for labour is a vote for the tories' response.
Why rule it out, there is no bloody need at this point?
If I was the EU there's no way I look at a deal for the UK to re-enter the single market, before it was in the manifesto of both parties, and there's clearly an overwhelming support in the country for it.
If that were the case, one of the main parties needs to demonstrate that it is an idea that can gain electoral support first, before the other will even contemplate shifting its position. The idea that there can be a 'good Brexit' if you elect a Labour government doesn't seem like the kind of platform that appeals to anyone.
there would be intense political pressure to issue an FPN as the PM got one for ‘just having a bit of cake’.
Well yes of course but it could be argued different police force with different protocols. And also that the Met's decision was never seen as having such direct political consequences.
I agree that the political pressure on Durham Constabulary is wholly unfair. They quite rightly didn't want to investigate the affair long after it is alleged to have occurred, the same as the Met Police.
It seems like Labour ought to be pointing out that the results of losing market access – recession, inflation and austerity are the true causes of division in the people they are claiming to represent.
Yes but the origins for these problems are mostly post-pandemic / supply-chain / just-in-time stocks and neoliberal slide - and Brexit won't be helping of course.
Irrespective - Starmer doesn't want to push too hard against market-forces it appears. So, he's not representing the people that would vote for him.
Yes but the origins for these problems are mostly post-pandemic
Leaving the single market and the customs union is not a 'post pandemic issue' itwas never how brexit was sold to the UK public. That was May/Boris' ultra hard brexit masquerading as 'soft' brexit.
And now starmer is supporting this? He may as well start wearing a blue rosette and cross the floor.
I was prepared to tactically vote labour if needed, but the only party I can vote for now is the liberal democrats. It's either that or abstain.
Im 100% a remainer
but if you think Labour would ever have been able to go into the next election on a rejoin or SM/FOM ticket then you are very naive
Theres no SM without FOM & you only have to see how popular the rwanda policy is among certain groups to realise that FOM is an election loser
Itll take another electoral cycle at least before thats a realistic option, simply because too many people refuse to admit that they were wrong to vote for it
I was prepared to tactically vote labour if needed, but the only party I can vote for now is the liberal democrats. It’s either that or abstain.
It's like 2019 all over again. 😄
I refere the court to comments I made a few days ago..
Remember when all the remainers on here were saying they weren’t going to vote labour in 2019 because they refused to be part of a pro-brexit majority? I clearly recall being called a nazi sympathiser for saying labour (and remainers in general) should accept the referendum result. Yet now those of us who don’t want to vote labour (I really, really don’t*) on account of Starmer’s acquiesance to the right wing establishment are called ‘tory enablers’ by many of the same people who took exactly the same stance on brexit. What’s the difference?
There are already plenty of people who won't vote Labour because Starmer was a "remainer", and I don't think this approach will win many over... in addition, this approach will add to that many people who now won't vote Labour because they want the UK in the Single Market (not all "remainers" of course, plenty of people wanted a "no longer EU member, but included in the Single Market" position when they voted to Leave). The truth is, there isn't a policy as regards Europe for Labour that won't make lots of people wary of them... all Labour can hope to do, in this election cycle, is try and neutralise it as an issue with a "no substantial change, but a few sensible concessions towards moving goods and workers"... and I suppose that's what the veterinarian agreement and a fudge on touring staff seeks to do. They're hoping that "resigned remainers" will think that at least they are proposing something, and that "practical leavers" will think that at least they're trying to make Brexit work... and that plenty of other people just start to ignore the question all together. I don't think it'll work... but I don't have an approach more likely to work to suggest either.
@kimbers I agree, but I thought starmer had the political nouce to maybe join 'some sort of customs union' without advertising it too loudly, without enraging the far right brexit loonies enough to shed too many potential labour voters.
To come out and say what he said today...
“So let me be very clear: with Labour, Britain will not go back into the EU. We will not be joining the single market. We will not be joining a customs union.”
I was wrong. I was so wrong. I'll never vote labour under starmer, the lib dems will get my vote.
I thought starmer had the political nouce to maybe join ‘some sort of customs union’ without advertising it too loudly, without enraging the far right brexit loonies enough to shed too many potential labour voters.
The minute Starmer says he wants to sign up to the CU or Sm, Johnson & the Tories will be jumping up & down, becaus ethey know it gets their base aroused, to be able to paint Labour as a threat to their Brexit
I’ll never vote labour under starmer, the lib dems will get my vote.
Do you have a tory MP? Are the lib dems the main challenger? If not then you are a tory enabler and I claim my 5 pounds.
So his solution is 'if you can't beat' em, join 'em?
That's a firm' get in the sea' from me.
Do you have a tory MP? Are the lib dems the main challenger? If not then you are a tory enabler and I claim my 5 pounds.
My local MP is the illustrious Mr Craig Whittaker, last time I checked.
I'd never vote for a pro-hard brexit party such as the conservatives, or Labour under Starmer, it's as simple as that.
And you'd rather keep him as your MP...? Rightio...
So his solution is ‘if you can’t beat’ em, join ’em?
Yes reduce division by giving way entirely to the hard right loons.
And you’d rather keep him as your MP…? Rightio…
I'll vote lib dem or abstain. As the old saying goes, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
Now Starmer has revealed himself as a hard core brexiteer, There is no way on earth I'll vote Labour.
I am prepared to tactically vote, but if it's a choice of hard brexit under the tories, or Starmers Labour, I'm out.
My local MP is the illustrious Mr Craig Whittaker
Me too. If I can bring myself to vote labour to get rid of the c*** then you have no excuse either. Have a word with yourself.
to maybe join ‘some sort of customs union’ without advertising it too loudly, without enraging the far right brexit loonies
cant happen, and that’s not necessarily Starmer’s fault. The EU are not going to start talking to anyone about any sort of renegotiation of the current deal while the Tory party is staunchly against the idea of the customs union ( as are a good number of the public still) It would be just a waste of everyone’s time.