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He just posted his view of the state of Labour support in Scotland, and it’s effect on national polling and recorded voting.
I make it that there is a 4% negative impact on UK wide polling for Labour, compared to the days of the last Labour UK government.
Do you want a Labour government in Westminster or not?
I dont teally care. I want and expect an independent scotland. Votes in Scotland makes only marginal difference to what happens in westminster anyway given the snp will always oppose the tories
Do you want a Labour government in Westminster or not?
I dont teally care.
Okay that wasn't really clear - your earlier rant gave the impression that not supporting Starmer was some sort of unforgivable mortal sin.
It turns out that you don't care.
Its that the reasons folk give on this thread for not supporting Starmer rarely make any sense and often based on falsehoods.
Like the idea he has renaged on state ownership. Bogus.
Like the idea he has renaged on state ownership. Bogus.
You're just shifting your terminology about. He supported nationalisation. I just posted you a video clip with his hand up in the air. Terms like state ownership and common ownership are used to muddy the waters
https://twitter.com/timmyvoe/status/1542912963446718464?t=AcaUeQ8yB8qeQOPpxIyGFw&s=19
Starmer on rising energy bills: “I’m not in favour of nationalisation”
But maybe he didn't really support it in the first place. Who knows - he's not a particularly genuine person it appears.
And on top of this like Ernie says he's ripping up the previous Labour manifesto.
It ain't hard finding contradictions on Starmer Island.
And on top of this like Ernie says he’s ripping up the previous Labour manifesto.
If Labour carried the 2019 manifesto through to the next election, and told the electorate “this time, get it right, vote for this”, they’d deserve to lose even more seats.
I’d also like to point out that Ernie complaining about the 2019 manifesto being ripped up, when he refused to vote for it, is the kind of contradiction that this “anything Starmer does is the devil’s work” thread survives on, as it eats itself… going round and round and round…
I voted for Labour with that manifesto. I expect much of what I approved of in it to be dumped to one side… it would be either arrogance or insanity to just press reprint on the manifesto and hope that the UK public has realised the error of its ways (and I do think it was an error… but hey).
Its that the reasons folk give on this thread for not supporting Starmer rarely make any sense and often based on falsehoods.
Cobblers, TJ. Plenty of left leaning people on this thread voted for him. I know Dazh did and he was my second choice. Many of us feel betrayed as he has rowed back from the commitments he made then, which might be more palatable if he was putting Labour into a position to form the next government. He isn't.
Thats exactly my point. You say he has renaged on commitments but he simply hasnt done so. People are slating him on this thread for partly imaginary reasons.
Her has not rowed back from a commitment to state ownership and control for example. He said he didnot like the 70s model. There are other models.
The whole idea he has rowed back comes from those who heard(falsely) what they wanted to hear. Ideological purity. Starmer is a technocrat. He is not ideologically pure and as this has become more obvious those that heard wrongly cry "betrayal"
Ernie complaining about the 2019 manifesto being ripped up
I certainly haven't 'complained' about the 2019 manifesto being ripped up, I haven't even mentioned the 2019 manifesto.
The only thing I am criticising is that Labour has no policies, only a "clean slate" according to Starmer - who the **** is going to vote for a clean slate?
By all means ditch the 2019 election manifesto, after all the second referendum pledge is no longer valid, but ffs come up with some alternative policies to the Tories if you want people to support you.
But perhaps Starmer feels there is no urgency in the matter - there are no crises to tackle so no alternative vision is currently necessary. Everything is just tickety-boo for now and maybe one day Labour might be able to offer some alternative policies to the Tories.
In the meantime people should base their support for Labour on blind faith. Blind faith in a man who has broken every single one of the 10 pledges he made when he was desperate to become Labour Leader.
No one, including me, can criticise Starmer's policies, on account that he hasn't got any. And that's obviously the way he likes it. He has spent his entire time as Leader of the Labour Party telling people what he doesn't support, I am sure that he could have found the time to also mention what he does support.
Thats exactly my point. You say he has renaged on commitments but he simply hasnt done so. People are slating him on this thread for partly imaginary reasons.
He is on record saying that he is ditching the manifesto. We've done all this before, in this thread.
In its place is a vacuum of ideas and vision.
A vacuum? How dare you! We have 'security, prosperity and respect', all nice words to fight for.
Indeed. I’ll be voting for Labour, because ‘anything but Tory’ but I’m an engaged voter. Just being the beige alternative to Boris is going to lead to mass voter apathy and at best, a very hung parliament. At worst, more Boris.
Her has not rowed back from a commitment to state ownership and control for example. He said he didnot like the 70s model. There are other models.
You keep going on about 70s style nationalisation.
It's not a style. It's ownership by the state.
You referenced Scotrail earlier as some sort of abject difference to nationalisation.
It's not. It's nationalisation. And every major reference piece is calling it that. Just like the BoE is nationalised but has the illusion of arms length control.
Nationalisation can be ownership and or/control by the government.
All that's happening is Starmer is trying to avoid supporting nationalisation by not naming it such.
Because that's what a wishy washy centrist does is wait to see what the politics of the day are.
By all means ditch the 2019 election manifesto, after all the second referendum pledge is no longer valid, but ffs come up with some alternative policies to the Tories if you want people to support you.
I liked the 2019 manifesto. One problem was iirc the tagging on of extra ideas at the last minute. Generally good ideas, but whilst Labour MPs tried to make it clear that these were wishful things for a later date - it was treated (largely maliciously) as if Labour were offering everything tomorrow, with no regards to the consequences/costs.
imho policies need to be proposed now to give people time to consider them and for the argument for them to be made. Along with long-term proposals that may take potentially decades to achieve. We are not going to get to where we want to be overnight, nor without taking everyone with us. I used to be all for revolution, but I’ve come to believe that evolution is the way forward.
It’s not a style. It’s ownership by the state.
That made me chuckle. Thanks 🙂
I liked the 2019 manifesto. One problem was iirc the tagging on of extra ideas at the last minute.
Maybe. But this was the big problem :
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto-2019/the-final-say-on-brexit/
Maybe. But this was the big problem :
You’re probably correct. However, having clicked on the link it makes sense to me. The majority of people voted for Brexit without knowing the details. To say ‘this is what’s on offer, do you want to go ahead?’, sounds fair and reasonable.
The bigger problem was Corbyn, rather than brexit
Not in the manifesto it wasn't.
You’re probably correct. However, having clicked on the link it makes sense to me.
That was Starmer's input. The 2017 manifesto made no such commitment. Instead it said:
Accept the EU referendum result and "build a close new relationship with the EU" prioritising jobs and and workers' rights
Labour did reasonably well in the Leave areas in 2017.
This is what David Graeber was talking about in that video I posted a page or two back. It’s US data but applies everywhere in western economies. If people really understood what this meant there’d be riots in the streets. I reckon we’re edging closer to that.
https://twitter.com/rickydhale/status/1543220053474148352?s=21&t=mqORHaIbx0zu3f83L6RkXA
Wages have been replaced by personal debt.
Getting carried away with the Starmer fine rumour. It's probably balls but can you imagine the forums if true?
😃
Fingers crossed - just for the sake of someone who can at least take the battle to the Boris the botcher.
Getting carried away with the Starmer fine rumour. It’s probably balls but can you imagine the forums if true?
It's quite obviously a fantasy of the far left that has got the Johnson fanboys desperate to try & deflect from his current scandals
Starmer & Rayner were having a fun time at Pride, they do a great job of looking relaxed whilst orchestrating this secret cover up by the deep state/msm to protect him 🙄
Fingers crossed – just for the sake of someone who can at least take the battle to the Boris the botcher.
Dream on - there isn't any contender who is capable of doing that. And if there was someone who could offer a genuine alternative to the Tory agenda, and which puts the interests of ordinary working people at the forefront, the Parliamentary Labour Party would not tolerate it - they would connive with the right-wing press to do whatever they could to undermine them.
Today's Labour Party is not a vehicle for shifting the balance of political and economic power in favour of ordinary working men and women.
Part of Mick Lynch's current appeal is that he is a breath of fresh air in the UK's otherwise stagnant political environment.
Unrestrained by party discipline Lynch can stand up and speak his mind as he makes the case of the legitimate demands and expectations of working people.
If Lynch was a Labour MP Starmer would have withdrawn the Labour whip from him a long time ago - he has threatened Labour MPs for simply showing support for the RMT. In the case of Wes Streeting he forced him to apologise.
Generally speaking just the threat of disciplinary action is sufficient to silence any MP who might be tempted to have any radical thoughts.
Those who have risen to the top of the party due to the approval of the Labour establishment are never going to even consider rocking the boat.
Is he trying to be shit?
Dream on – there isn’t any contender who is capable of doing that.
You're probably correct but neither can you predict the future.
But they're may at least be a better personality than Starmer in terms of just opening their mouth.
may at least be a better personality than Starmer
Sure, if it's a political pantomime that you want.
Angel Rayner would possibly do a better job.
I was specifically referring to "someone who could offer a genuine alternative to the Tory agenda, and who puts the interests of ordinary working people at the forefront".
Personally it's policies which bother me, not personalities. And I don't care sufficiently about Johnson's personality to be bothered by it. It's only Johnson's policies which I have any issue with.
Sure, if it’s a political pantomime that you want.
Angel Rayner would possibly do a better job.
I was specifically referring to “someone who could offer a genuine alternative to the Tory agenda, and who puts the interests of ordinary working people at the forefront”.
Yes of course. I get that but Starmer has two faults: he's not a passionate robust orator and the second part his agenda flips between centrist wishy wash and establishment tax and spend.
I'd be happy aiming low and knowing we don't have the latter for a swap of the former.
Just for the time-being; just because I don't think he's ever pushed hard against the government to gain public support.
People need to be roused and engaged.
And I don’t care sufficiently about Johnson’s personality to be bothered by it. It’s only Johnson’s policies which I have any issue with.
No neither do I really but the people that voted for him were influenced by his persona- and with him politics and personality are linked.
I remember cycling past two builders pre-election (in deepest darkest Bassetlaw) and I was cursing Boris - and the builders shouted "yeah Boris!"
It dawned on me they thought he would be on side. And we were stuffed.
I remember cycling past two builders pre-election (in deepest darkest Bassetlaw) and I was cursing Boris – and the builders shouted “yeah Boris!”
Yeah! Hang on, I mean whaa?! Cycling along, audibly cursing "ah that Johnson, that Boris ****ing Johnson's... policies, why youuu!" Perhaps it helps summon up a few extra watts?
Wages have been replaced by personal debt.
Which is exactly the point that Graeber was making. We've been sucked into a world where working people have been brainwashed into believing that they shouldn't be able to pay for things with money they earn today, and instead with money they earn tomorrow. The only question you have to ask about why this is the case is who makes money out of that?
Yeah! Hang on, I mean whaa?! Cycling along, audibly cursing “ah that Johnson, that Boris **** Johnson’s… policies, why youuu!” Perhaps it helps summon up a few extra watts?<
Them watts have been getting harder to muster since Brexit. I'm sure I saw 350 extra watts for me on a bus.
Ha ha. Not as dramatic just a fly by rant with the GF.
We’ve been sucked into a world where working people have been brainwashed into believing that they shouldn’t be able to pay for things with money they earn today, and instead with money they earn tomorrow
It's amazing what cheap leveraged debt has made of things.
There's got to be the almighty black swan at some point. I will eat my socks if the forthcoming financial meltdown gets propped up by a last minute Tory government.
I mean, economic models don't last forever do they?
I only dip in and out of this. I thought i would ckarify. The reason i don't really care about labour UK is that its operating in a foreign country . Westminster and england is a forign country to me.
Policies on Scotland are spectacularly shit. Starmets latest " no talking to the SNP" is an absurd position to take
Looks like the labour leadership election campaign has started. Maybe the gossip about Starmer being fined isn't all bollocks after all?
Yes because the shadow health secretary looking into healthcare is definitely a sign conspiracy theory is true 😉
The reason i don’t really care about labour UK is that its operating in a foreign country.
That's not really true though is it? You criticise left wingers for being 'ideologically pure' yet ignore the reality that Scotland is part of the UK and hence tied to the tory-labour establishment. Personally I'm quite supportive of Scottish independence, but the political dynamics are not much different to the English not wanting to be in the EU, and that's what I don't really understand about it.
but the people that voted for him were influenced by his persona
Well that is certainly one of the excuses given for people not voting Labour. However when the issue is actually researched the evidence is less obvious.
The public has a far more negative view of the new Tory leader than they did of Theresa May when she took over the top job.
If you read the whole article you will see the public had a remarkably low opinion of Johnson when he first became Tory leader, with most people quite correctly considering him to be "untrustworthy".
The article concludes :
Does Boris’s unpopularity matter?
Overall, there is definitely far more bad news in these numbers than there is good news for the new Conservative leader. By historic standards, Boris Johnson will be an unpopular new Prime Minister.
However, there are also reasons to believe that Johnson’s popularity levels might be less important than they have been for Prime Ministers gone by.
IMO far too much emphasis is put on a leaders personality. Even if it is Johnson's personality that attracts voters (which doesn't appear to be the case) it is still his policies which should be attacked, not his personality. It's not a ****ing beauty contest.
As far as cursing whilst cycling is concerned the only thing I curse is gravity.
much different to the English not wanting to be in the EU, and that’s what I don’t really understand about it.
At least you admit not understanding. The motivations are the opposite. Its not about hatred of furriners and inward and bacward looking. Its about being a modern social democratic state and being outward and forward looking
Sorry but to many of us england is a forign country in how we see it and one that imposes unrepresentative governments on us. Thats why i dont care. How much do you care about german politics?
Sorry but to many of us england is a forign country in how we see it and one that imposes unrepresentative governments on us.
Yes I understand that, I grew up in Newcastle and my inlaws are from Sevenoaks. There's not much I don't know about the gulf in wealth, culture and politics between the two. However, much like Scotland, what happens in the South East affects the rest of us. To a lesser extent in Scotland of course thanks to devolution, but the link between England and Scotland is much greater than that between the UK and Germany, so it's a bit daft to not be interested in westminster politics however much you like to pretend it doesn't apply in Scotland.
And as for being an 'outward looking' country, how does that tally with being anti-UK when Scotland has much more in common with the rest of the UK than Europe? It just doesn't seem very consistent to me.
Thats why i dont care. How much do you care about german politics?
This is quite a rant from someone who doesn't care :
This is a lovely little bubble of all mouth and trousers pseudo lefties who will never support Starmer because he is not ideologically pure and whithin this group think you have all convinced yourselves that Starmer is the antichrist despite no evidence and in tbe process constructing a completly false narrative . Anyone supporting Starmer gets shouted down
I can't imagine what it would be like if you did care.
The public has a far more negative view of the new Tory leader than they did of Theresa May when she took over the top job.
But we're talking about the period leading up to being elected?
And broadly we are not talking about just the public we are talking about the subset of people that elected him.
So whilst I agree that personality is not important for me - it very much is for some people.
I mean wasn't Corbyn cited as the largest reason for not voting Labour in 2019? At least in some polls.
But we’re talking about the period leading up to being elected?
The poll was conducted on the weekend after he won the Tory leadership election and became PM. Do you think Johnson became more popular with voters after he became PM?
Whilst I won't dispute Corbyn's lack of popularity you are hardly comparing like for like. Do you honestly think that Johnson would have won a landslide if his own MPs had claimed that he was absolutely shite prime ministerial material and were queuing up to denounce him as a racist and forcing leadership elections?