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They voted those people into parliament.
Well as that twitter thread shows they've long since worked out that the people they voted in aren't on their side. Trouble is for Starmer that they don't think he is either.
Voting to “get Brexit done” has implications.
Is that the generic response from the remainer middle class? Good luck with that.
A letter to the Shropshire Star, last week. Completely nonsense logic about how it's all Corbyn's fault of course, but surprisingly common. An elderly friend is the same: hates Boris with a fiery passion, but given a time machine back to 2019, would vote Tory again as she honestly believes Corbyn would have been worse, even now. She's a small-c conservative, devout Christian, and her fear of Corbyn and everything he represents* is just off the scale.
*everything *she perceives* him to represent, that is: bread queues, totalitarianism, 101% tax rates and mandatory gayness
That focus group doesn't seem to speak for most folks though?
Trouble is for Starmer that they don’t think he is either.
Very true.
Is that the generic response from the remainer middle class?
I can't change the truth. Sorry. I'm not a politician, so don't have to pretend that black is white.
They voted those people into parliament. Voting to “get Brexit done” has implications.
Yes hence why you have to think why they thought it was worth the gamble.
Anyone see the piece about the Yougov stich up for Corbyn?
(Sorry Starmer threadees)
rone
Free Member
Anyone see the piece about the Yougov stich up for Corbyn?
the really outrageous thing was the stuff about Zahawi bullying them into it & threatening to get them sacked! (which he now claims was a joke)
so don’t have to pretend that black is white
It's not black and white though is it? No matter how remainy you are you can't simply blame everything that's going on now on brexit. Two other major shocks to the economic and political balance have happened since the 2019 election. Brexit obviously makes it worse but blaming it entirely on that one thing is as deluded as thinking brexit was going to fix everything.
The core problem IMO is not brexit, covid or Ukraine. It's the fact we have a political establishment (which includes labour) which is unwilling and/or unable to design and implement solutions to crises which sit outside neoliberal dogma. When the market fails or is unable to respond to unexpected crises, we need goverment to step in. When govermnent refuses to do that or fails due to incompetence, those crises are massively amplified.
They feel that Labour has "lost its identity" and is out of touch with "the working classes"
How could anyone conclude that the 2017 or 2019 manifestos weren't written for the working classes, yet we heard exactly the same line ?
Whenever I hear "out of touch with "the working classes", I just think what they are actually saying is " Labour won't put up with our bigotry anymore "
To me, this is Labour's biggest problem, their once core vote is now just openly hostile to 'others' in a way that is totally at odds with Labour core values. With this in mind, it doesn't matter who is in charge or what they offer to make things better. It's not about Labour being too PC or too woke or out of touch, it's about the shift in culture where all problems are caused by others - foreigners, muslims, the EU, people on benefits.
I honestly don't know how to fix that.
Anyone see the piece about the Yougov stich up for Corbyn?
OMG yes, read it open mouthed. Didn't some of it get deleted later in the day? I note that Zahawi didn't deny that he said he call for the head of You Gov to be sacked if the data was wrong, just claimed it was "friendly banter between ex-colleagues"
That focus group doesn’t seem to speak for most folks though?
True the focus group is just one bunch of people.
The emphasis is on Tory let down.
OMG yes, read it open mouthed. Didn’t some of it get deleted later in the day
I think the Tweet was broken but there's a full one somewhere if that's what you mean?
the really outrageous thing was the stuff about Zahawi bullying them into it & threatening to get them sacked! (which he now claims was a joke)
He's a serious mouth piece.
I honestly don’t know how to fix that.
Well you definitely don't fix it by encouraging more of it with nonstop flag shagging.
It’s not black and white though is it? No matter how remainy you are you can’t simply blame everything that’s going on now on brexit.
Absolutely this.
Of course it's easy to focus on Brexit.
But there is a much wider picture.
Rule in life for me - breakdowns are usually a combination of issues. Don't they call it the Swiss cheese model?
That's what's going off here, certainly with politics and the economy.
How could anyone conclude that the 2017 or 2019 manifestos weren’t written for the working classes, yet we heard exactly the same line ?
Because the press were saying that in those elections.
It's fair to say I think without Brexit it would have been a completely different battle.
That manifesto (2017) was absolutely aimed at the working class. Although not sure what the working class make of issues with the climate?
That focus group doesn’t seem to speak for most folks though?
That poll whilst showing a big increase in Labour's share of the vote compared to 2019 it actually represents a smaller share than Labour managed in 2017, which some claim was a disaster because Labour didn't win the GE. Labour need to do better than they did in 2017 to win the next general election.
The good news for Labour though is that, unsurprisingly, Tory support Wakefield has collapsed - lower the poll suggests, than in 2017 or any other time this century.
The unpopularity of the Tories isn't in doubt but the popularity of Labour is. Despite an unpopular Tory government Labour seem currently insufficiently popular enough to win a general election.
Anyone see the piece about the Yougov stich up for Corbyn?
Yes. Perhaps I should not have been surprised but I was. Corbyn really did have everything stacked against him - the press, the parliamentary Labour Party, and now apparently Britian's foremost pollster which connived to withhold the truth. The polls were used extensively as a very important weapon to undermine Corbyn.
Brexit obviously makes it worse but blaming it entirely on that one thing is as deluded as thinking brexit was going to fix everything.
It would be. And I haven't. It gave us this government though, and changed the makeup of our parliament (south of the border) drastically. All as a bonus to hampering GB economically. So when people complain that the people now with power in parliament aren't acting for them... it was always going to be this way... because of Brexit. Sorry.
The core problem IMO is not brexit, covid or Ukraine. It’s the fact we have a political establishment (which includes labour) which is unwilling and/or unable to design and implement solutions to crises which sit outside neoliberal dogma. When the market fails or is unable to respond to unexpected crises, we need goverment to step in. When govermnent refuses to do that or fails due to incompetence, those crises are massively amplified.
So much this.
Moderates just don't know how to operate outside of this model which is why the centre ground has shifted right-wards to embrace it. To the point where an incompetent neoliberal administration is bad but a competent but wholly efficient neoliberal administration is the ideal.
I genuinely think some centrists do not realise their role in the lurch towards wrecking the economy for future generations.
Plenty of people talk about socialism being this and that, and relatively speaking we/they don't know socialism - they know neoliberalism (in fact bizarrely neoliberalism needs aspects of socialism to survive) - but it just doesn't take the blame for its trajectory.
The neoliberal model assumes infinite resources and complete efficiency of the market to solve economic problems in the best possible way for society.
Both of which are so utterly false. But Brexit.
It’s not about Labour being too PC or too woke or out of touch, it’s about the shift in culture where all problems are caused by others – foreigners, muslims, the EU, people on benefits.
One of Corbyn's characteristics which I didn't like and felt uncomfortable with was his PC/woke obsession which was highlighted in the Theresa May/stupid woman saga.
Like a great many people I intensely dislike PC/woke nonsense. I see it as daft, sanctimonious, and a counterproductive distraction which falsely condemns people.
Obviously you are free to dismiss me as a misogynist homophobic racist, it's the usual simplistic response.
So you didn’t vote for Labour, with Corbyn as leader, 2019… because you thought he was “woke”?!? And you still can’t tell us of any Labour politician you think would make a better leader than Starmer? How about we widen the field… ignoring all the “the public would never vote for them” complaints… WHO would you like to see as Prime Minister of the UK?
It’s the fact we have a political establishment (which includes labour) which is unwilling and/or unable to design and implement solutions to crises which sit outside neoliberal dogma. When the market fails or is unable to respond to unexpected crises, we need goverment to step in. When govermnent refuses to do that or fails due to incompetence, those crises are massively amplified.
That might be a fair criticism of the Tories but I don't think it is an entirely fair criticism of past Labour governments.
Sure, when the Tories oversaw the self-inflicted recession of the early eighties Thatcher didn't flinch as she stuck to the neo-liberal rulebook and enthusiastically continued to impose policies which were guaranteed to make matters worse.
During the recession of the early nineties ten years later John Major did nothing as the "market adjusted" and an unprecedented amount of construction workers lost their jobs and people were thrown out of their homes or unable to move due to negative equity.
In contrast when the international credit crises hit the UK the rulebook went out of the window and Gordon 'no return to boom and bust' Brown stepped in with real measures that had real effect on alleviating hardship for a great deal of people.
Indeed I believe that Gordon Brown might have been a victim of his own success - I reckon a lot of people who were spared hardship due to the Labour government's vital intervention failed to appreciate just how serious the crises hard been, when decided to believe Tory/LibDem bollocks about the deficit and punish Labour the following general election.
I was no fan of New Labour but the one thing I will never deny them credit for is their handling of the international credit crisis - I have no doubt at all that it would have been immeasurably worse had the Tories been in power.
I have absolutely no faith in Starmer though. In fact I have so little faith in Starmer and the Shadow Cabinet that I am in this weird and really quite remarkable situation where I would actually rather that Tony Blair was the next PM than Starmer. And I really don't like Blair.
Obviously you are free to dismiss me as a misogynist homophobic racist, it’s the usual simplistic response.
I’d dismiss you as a misogynist, homophobic racist if you were posting misogynist homophobic racist stuff. Being irritated by PC and wokeness isn’t an indication of anything other than irritation of PC and wokeness.
What I can’t understand is why working people would dismiss the opportunity to level the playing field as Corbyn clearly wanted to do just because he had some quirky ideals about pronouns.
So you didn’t vote for Labour, with Corbyn as leader, 2019… because you thought he was “woke”?!?
Well that is obviously not what I said but I don't think that matters, does it?
A bit like me saying that I don't like the EU but claiming that I'm not a racist.
People draw their own conclusions no matter what you say.
I’d dismiss you as a misogynist, homophobic racist if you were posting misogynist homophobic racist stuff.
Yeah but because I spend too much time in the presence of the wrong people I am aware of the subtle difference between "people of colour" and "coloured people", you would be surprised how many people aren't aware.
So obviously I am not going to you use the term coloured people on here, but it doesn't mean that I'm not a racist. Or that people who say coloured people are.
Rule in life for me – breakdowns are usually a combination of issues. Don’t they call it the Swiss cheese model?
Its used for both avoiding breakdowns and explaining how they can despite layered defences.
The idea is with one slice of cheese its reasonable likely there is a hole. The more layers you add the less chances all the holes will overlap and hence the breakdown is stopped.
However occasionally the holes can align by chance and you will be screwed.
One of Corbyn’s characteristics which I didn’t like and felt uncomfortable with was his PC/woke obsession which was highlighted in the Theresa May/stupid woman saga.
How did that demonstrate it? Calling her "stupid woman" doesnt seem to be an obvious example of "PC/woke" but instead more the opposite.
In contrast when the international credit crises hit the UK the rulebook went out of the window and Gordon ‘no return to boom and bust’ Brown stepped in with real measures that had real effect on alleviating hardship for a great deal of people.
On the one had, and on the other he liked a bit of deregulation.
Its used for both avoiding breakdowns and explaining how they can despite layered defences.
The idea is with one slice of cheese its reasonable likely there is a hole. The more layers you add the less chances all the holes will overlap and hence the breakdown is stopped.
However occasionally the holes can align by chance and you will be screwed.
Yeah good explanation.
I think I heard it mentioned when doing my drone license in response to airline accidents.
I was no fan of New Labour but the one thing I will never deny them credit for is their handling of the international credit crisis
Yes that was the one occasion where the rule book was thrown out of the window and I agree
people never realised the seriousness of it. I think even the tories would have done something similar, although no doubt half-cocked and much less effective. But then labour didn't follow it up with real reform of the banking sector and honesty about where the money came from to fund the bailouts. They did what was necessary, and then lost their nerve and allowed the tories to set the ridiculous deficit narrative, resulting in a decade of austerity. Even after their radical and successful intervention in the market, they still found it impossible to reject neoliberalism.
successful intervention in the market, they still found it impossible to reject neoliberalism.
Got to prop it up. That's the trouble.
True neoliberalism would just fail quicker.
Same with the pandemic.
How did that demonstrate it? Calling her “stupid woman” doesnt seem to be an obvious example of “PC/woke” but instead more the opposite.
Presumably you don't remember the furore caused by the allegation. Corbyn steadfastly denied that he had muttered "stupid woman" whilst looking at Theresa May. He claimed that he would never use misogynist and sexist language.
My heart sank when I heard him say that, apart from the daftness of the comment I knew it would not play well among many traditional Labour supporters - yes they will use the term "stupid woman" to describe someone they strongly disagree with, not "stupid person" or whatever the correct woke term is, it doesn't make them misogynist or sexist though.
It would have been far better if he had admitted to saying it even if he hadn't, he could have said something along the lines of "that's right, i muttered stupid woman because what she was saying was stupid".
It would have got him more respect and he could have then gone on to discuss in detail why he thought May's comments were stupid.
It was a ridiculously big story at the time as the media, the PLP, and all those opposed to Corbyn's people friendly agenda used every conceivable issue to attack him. And he blew it.
Btw what would have been the correct term if the PM had been a man - still stupid person or would stupid man have been acceptable? After all it couldn't be described as misogynist or sexist to call a man a stupid man. My woke awareness doesn't stretch that far.
Perhaps he was telling the truth, and didn't call her a stupid woman, and did consider it an over used knee jerk misogynist response in our society, and not appropriate for his work place... especially when it is filmed for the nation to follow.
It would have been far better if he had admitted to saying it even if he hadn’t
Hmm... playing up to the "can't say anything these days" dinosaurs, with a lie? It's a view...
How did that demonstrate it? Calling her “stupid woman” doesn’t seem to be an obvious example of “PC/woke” but instead more the opposite.
I don’t think it was an example of anything except the truth ?
Precisely.
Yeah he could have stuck up for himself a bit more rather than always trying to placate.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/10/britain-political-housing-health
He's right, we're at a major inflection point in politics, and Labour have a guy in charge who doesn't appear to have any vision on what the future could be like. Maybe we'll have a better idea when his book comes out?
He’s right, we’re at a major inflection point in politics, and Labour have a guy in charge who doesn’t appear to have any vision on what the future could be like
Does he really say that? I don't recall seeing Starmer's name mentioned once in that article. All I noted was how awful the Tories are and what Michael Foot was doing in 1940, although I didn't really understand what Michael Foot did in 1940 ...... wrote about the humiliation of Dunkirk?
wrote about the humiliation of Dunkirk?
Sort of. He (partly) wrote a famous book called Guilty Men, attacking appeasement as a policy. It was popular at the time. Some of it's conclusion have been questioned since (especially Chamberlain's reputation), but at the start of the war it probably did quite a bit to give Churchill some moral authority.
Presumably you don’t remember the furore caused by the allegation.
I do. I just not sure how you are jumping to your woke rant.
I mean if anything the accusation of "woke" should be targeted at the tories for getting excited about it,surely?
Thanks for that Nick, I appreciate it.
Any clues on why it might be appropriate today?
Does he really say that?
No I'm saying it! He's right in that politics and economics is at a major fork in the road. The system which has ruled for the past 40 years (50 if you go back to 1971 which is when it really changed) is no longer fit for purpose. Much like how the post-war democratic socialist settlement ran out of steam in the 70s, and pre-war cut-throat monopolism collapsed in the 30s. The question is what comes next? Labour could be setting out an alternative which could last for the next 30 years, but insteead they're harking back to 1997.
I just not sure how you are jumping to your woke rant.
Corbyn claimed that he had said "stupid people" not "stupid woman". He further suggested that he would never use the term "stupid woman" as according to him it was misogynist and sexist.
People failing to understand how ridiculous that sounds to the average voter goes some way to explaining the disconnection between politicos and the wider public.
The Tory line of attack was, as it is generally against the Left, that Corbyn was a hypocrite.....he was a racist, he was sexist, he supported violence in NI, blah blah blah
The Tory line of attack was, as it is generally against the Left, that Corbyn was a hypocrite
Given that he was trying to portray himself as wanting a kinder and more gentle politics, he clearly was a hypocrite He was, like so many politician, the author of his own **** ups.
Given that he was trying to portray himself as wanting a kinder and more gentle politics, he clearly was a hypocrite
For muttering "stupid people" under his breath? Are you serious??
Corbyn was so daft that when a Labour MP said to him "You're a f****** antisemite and a racist" he responded by saying "I'm sorry you feel like that." Starmer would have instantly withdrawn the Labour whip from them.
Corbyn allowed himself to be bullied and was weak, partly due to his "kinder more gentle politics" nonsense, but he definitely wasn't a hypocrite, whatever the Daily Mail might have claimed.