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Fine. Again – you don’t adopt it.
It’s a description of the current system.
Australia
USA
UK
Japan
Canada
New Zealand(Not countries in EU with the EURO)
Broadly
And again, you say it's the current description, but it veers off from standard Keynesian economics, or others that the UK and the rest utilise, we have a model that allows the 'printing of money' to make up the budget, but there's checks and balances in there, offsetting, etc, etc that does not align with MMT.
It's the reason most can't stand the discussion on MMT, as there's never a straight answer to what it is, what it does, how it deals with inflation, etc, etc, it is just a nice white paper that espouses benefits galore, the same as you'd get if you did the same with marxism and so on.
TBH I couldn't care less what Starmer's or labour's view of the monarchy is. They should just stay well clear of it. Campaigning against the monarchy in this country is like campaigning against running water. It's a sideshow. At least as long as the queen is still alive. It might be different after, but until then they shouldn't even mention it.
or even attempted it in any way, shape of form.
Yawn. Where do you think the money for bailing out the banks and paying for covid came from?
Yeah just messing.
likewise 😃 but it does raise an interesting thought. Can we have a Republican Party in parliament? I don’t think we can can we?
it’s so desperately cynical
Yes it is. But so many people see Labour as being “anti-British” (seriously) that looking like you are over correcting (to you and I) while trying to get rid of that ridiculous notion in voters minds is probably unavoidable.
It might be different after
🤞🏼
My whole approach to this weekend is to wish all the Monarchists well, and hope they have a good time. Things might change when the Monarch changes. Patience.
The latest opinion poll (the fieldwork was yesterday) puts the Tories just 4 points behind Labour. Two years away from a general election and a Tory government riddled with division and rife with scandals, it really is tragic that there isn't a more effective opposition which has established an a insurmountable over the Tories.
That tiny Labour lead will massively help Johnson as he fights off attempts to replace him and he quite reasonably argues that it's not the end of the world and that he still enjoys significant support among voters. A double digit Labour lead of 12% or 15% would undoubtedly help to seal his fate.
Sure the next poll might well show a Labour lead double of that but that is mostly a reflection of how tiny it currently is.
For those who are keen to see Johnson replaced by another Tory leader with greater party support you best hope for a more damning poll to emerge before any vote of no confidence. I'm sure Liz Truss will be.
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-5-june-2022/
Starmer put all his eggs in the Jubilee basket.
Pretty pathetic.
He absolutely has to capitalise now and offer something other than bunting.
Let's talk about patriotism being about looking after the vulnerable? Is it that hard to say? Stick a flag up if it makes you happy but add something to it that the Tories don't have.
I'm embarrassed that Starmer lacks any sort of push back again this breathing blond caricature bombast.
In a statement Keir Starmer for broadcasters said it was “grotesque” that Tory MPs voted to support someone with no sense of duty. He said:
Conservative MPs made their choice tonight.
They have ignored the British public and hitched themselves and their party firmly to Boris Johnson and all he represents.
The Conservative party now believes that good government focused on improving lives is too much to ask.
The Conservative party now believes that breaking the law is no impediment to making the law.
The Conservative party now believes that the British public have no right to expect honest politicians.
Over the weekend the whole country celebrated the Queen’s Platinum Jubilee.
It was a tribute to 70 years of humility, decency and respect.
A reminder of our common cause to build a better a country for ourselves, our children and our grandchildren.
It is grotesque that the very next day the Conservative party has chosen to throw that sense of duty and those values on the bonfire.
Starmer also said the choice in British politics was closer than ever before. He said:
A Labour party united under my leadership with a plan to ensure Britain is never again plunged into a cost of living crisis, focused on growing the economy so that we can afford world class schools and hospitals, and determined to restore trust in politics.
Or a Conservative party that is divided, propping up Boris Johnson with no plan to tackle the issues facing you and your family.
I don’t claim that I or my party will get everything right, but I promise that when we don’t we will always be honest with you.
We will prioritise your prosperity and your security, and we will treat you with the respect you deserve from your politicians.
Starmer also said the choice in British politics was closer than ever before
He got that bit right.
Crooked suit or just suit.
A Labour party united under my leadership
Did he really say that?
Labour are waaay more united than the Tories (tho that's not exactly hard right now😂)
Whatever grievances there may be on the far left of the party that's not the view held by the public.
What labour need is a clear view on dealing with cost of living crisis (and perhaps voice coaching for starmer!)
Interesting to see what happens with Durham investigation
That speech/statement was embarrassing quite frankly. Starmer really doesn't do faux outrage and grandstanding very well. His entire pitch is that they're not the tories. Which is all well and good while Johnson lurches from crisis to crisis, but what happens when they finally get rid and install someone half competent? Where's the optimism, the hope, the excitement even? There is none, just dour managerialism.
but what happens when they finally get rid and install someone half competent?
Who's that then?
just dour managerialism.
That's what he's got. Otherwise it just sounds insincere.
Did he really say that?
Just had a chat with a couple of the GPs here over coffee, and yesterday's nonsense came up. Both are dyed in the wool Tories (you'd be surprised just how many are), both thought that Starmer looks "Rock solid" and "hugely more impressive in comparison"
Starmer will never bring "excitement" to his role.
I think a lack of "excitement" is exactly what I'd like, just now...
It depends... I'm definitely sick of being "entertained" by someone who uses japes to make up for not actually doing his job as PM. Some politically energising attributes would be good come election time though... but Labour will need to use others to supply that I feel.
Who’s that then?
Hunt mainly, but also Zahawi, Wallace, Tugendhat etc. They're not all idiots like Johnson, Truss, Raab et al. Hunt is a huge challenge for Starmer in particular, pretty much a carbon copy with a blue tie. Starmer's only pitch is that he's not Johnson. Take Johnson away and he doesn't have much.
Hunt mainly, but also Zahawi, Wallace, Tugendhat etc.
Jeremy Hunt is as bad as Johnson, it's why nobody in Labour would be that bothered if he suddenly turned up as PM, Zahawi, you just have to look at him last night to see he's an empty suit, same with Tugendhat, Wallace is pretty competent in the current cabinet, which instantly rules him out of any leadership contest!
The biggest challenge for Labour is the electorate itself.
Traditional Labour values are totally at odds with the othering and Nationalism that people seek solace in.
I don't know what they can offer that will beguile voters from such easy ( yet bogus) solutions.
If Labour didn't win 2017 by the landslide that the manifesto deserved then I really don't see any hope.
Hunt mainly, but also Zahawi, Wallace, Tugendhat etc.
Tugenhat's a weird one, normally reasonably sensible, but came out with some right "Brexit benefit" crap the other day, clearly angling to get on the side of some folks...
Both are dyed in the wool Tories (you’d be surprised just how many are), both thought that Starmer looks “Rock solid” and “hugely more impressive in comparison”
Well quite. But unless there is a different definition to the one I know of dyed in the wool they won't be voting Labour come the general election.
I don't think it is the role of Labour Party leaders to impress dyed in the wool Tories, rather it's to provide credible policies which reflect the party's stated aims and to convince people to vote for them.
Currently despite everything that has happened (remember exactly 6 months of negative headlines for Johnson now) the Tory vote seems to be holding up remarkably well. It is certainly not in free fall as you might reasonably expect it to be - if you listen to Johnson's most ardent critics.
I don’t think it is the role of Labour Party leaders to impress dyed in the wool Tories, rather it’s to provide credible policies which reflect the party’s stated aims and to convince people to vote for them.
I don't see how those two things are incompatible. Labour need to attract people who'd otherwise vote for the Tories, there's now no longer any way (now that Scotland largely votes for the SNP) of getting into power.
Labour need to attract people who’d otherwise vote for the Tories
I'd say their first priority would be reconnecting with people that normally vote Labour ?
Labour need to attract people who’d otherwise vote for the Tories
It needs to do a lot more than that. There are enough existing natural Labour voters in the country for Labour to win a general election.
Labour's perennial election issue is to get its vote out on the day. The Tories despite often enjoying less support are rather good at that which often results in them winning elections which they really shouldn't on paper win.
An example of this is actually Johnson winning 2 mayoral elections in London. London is not natural Tory territory, Londoners with Labour sympathies vastly outnumber Tory supporters, as recent elections have shown.
Contrary to the common believed narrative Johnson didn't win 2 mayoral elections because Londoners were bowled by his affable, amusing, and cuddly personality. He managed to just scrape in because the Tories very successfully mobilised their supporters in their outer city ring strongholds. They were smaller in number but far more determined to vote on the day, mostly driven by hatred of Livingstone's progressive policies.
For Labour to win the next general election it needs to mobilise its supporters on the day. It needs to convince people like me not to vote for the Greens, or anyone else.
It needs to fill people with hope that they are offering a substantially different vision to the Tories and that instead of going to Tesco's on that May evening it really is worthwhile going to the polling station instead. It needs to convince people that they are not "all the same". It needs to energise them.
It needs to have the enthusiasm of party workers who do all the ground work at elections, not expell them or totally demoralise them by enforcing candidates purely because they meet the approval of the party leader.
And it needs to accept that now is not 1997, Peter Mandelson's insightful remark over 20 years that Labour shouldn't worry about the working class vote because it had 'nowhere else is to go' is not relevant in 2024.
If unimpressed the working-class vote will stay at home, or if you really convince how little you care about them possibly to the Tories. Especially if you refuse to demolish the Tories's socio-economic arguments.
But carry on impressing dyed in the wool Tories who are going to vote Tory anyway, if you think that's the way forward. After all the Daily Mail is giving Starmer a remarkably easy time compared to the relentless attacks on the previous Labour leader, so perhaps Starmer is doing something right?
There are enough existing natural Labour voters in the country for Labour to win a general election.
Last time they counted there wasn't, there was only enough to get them 202 seats; their smallest since 1935. So I wouldn't be too sure. But carry on pretending that it's Ok not to attract a wider section of the population if you think that's the way forward.
Contrary to the common believed narrative Johnson didn’t win 2 mayoral elections because Londoners were bowled by his affable, amusing, and cuddly personality. He managed to just scrape in because the Tories very successfully mobilised their supporters in their outer city ring strongholds.
Everyone I know in London who voted for Johnson to be mayor had never voted Conservative in a general election. He absolutely did get people who otherwise were not interested in voting Conservative to vote for him. None of them voted for him as PM by the way… they’d seen through him by then. But as mayor, he won people over that other Tories could not. To claim otherwise is to ignore a key factor driving his support in the Tory party before becoming leader… people who knew he was fake and self serving also new he could win people over that other candidates to be leader could not, even if only temporarily. He’s a spent force now though… they’ll come two realise that more and more over the rest of this year.
Last time they counted there wasn’t, there was only enough to get them 202 seats
You obviously fail to understand the difference between natural Labour voters and people who vote Labour on election Day.
Maybe it might help if instead of natural Labour voters the term core Labour voters was used?
But not worry as I get the impression that you don't really want to understand the point I was making.
Everyone I know in London ....
Yeah the facts don't match your impression. The Labour vote remained solid in London, what allowed Johnson to scrape in was the Tory vote coming out in force in the outer donut, areas such as Bromley. The centre remained solidly Labour.
I didn't say anything about them being in any particular area of London. I said that they voted for Johnson as Mayor but otherwise didn't vote Conservative. Some are in boroughs that are solid blue (well 'till the last lot of locals) some in boroughs that are solid red. But they were won over by Johnson when no other Conservative politican had (or has) done the same. His peers in the party understood this talent, and that's why they wanted him to be party leader. His unusual appeal has a time limit though.... shine a light on what he actually does in office, and his allure soon dims.
So what are the solutions, Labour and Starmer have their manifesto/pledges aligned with the left, those working class aren’t always leftist either, there’s a lot of them who want crowns on their pint glass and to buy their potatoes by the pound.
Again though, if Starmer isn’t the right choice for now, who is, and what exactly are they doing that isn’t aimed at trying to sway voters to labour, and how would you fix it?
But carry on pretending that it’s Ok not to attract a wider section of the population if you think that’s the way forward.
Attract a wider selection of voters for sure but not by appealing to right wing sensibility.
I mean FFS what's the point if you just slightly tweak basic Tory ideology? It's a doomed approach to running the country.
The whole tact by Labour is an utter cop-out. Instead of invigorating the whole notion of what it means to be on left; and rising up to the challenge of putting across a strong socio-economic plan, and bringing something new to the table - what do these great minds do - they sit back like the diet neolibs they are and try to take in the dregs of failed Tory policy and repackage as we're slightly more competent than the current lot.
It's an absolute travesty, and we should be grateful - why?
Lack of ideas and not wanting to rewrite the narrative is killing any hope we might have as a nation.
(Starmer was on LBC being clear about the single market not being an option BTW so not sure what the remainers are hanging on to either.)
His peers in the party understood this talent, and that’s why they wanted him to be party leader.
Johnson definitely appealed to Tory voters when he stood in the mayoral elections, there is no doubt about that. Indeed it was Johnson's appeal to London Tory voters living in the doughnut ring suburbs that energised the Tory vote and got it out on the day - voter turnout in the Tory strongholds was exceptionally high in those 2 mayoral elections.
There is scant evidence of Labour voters switching to the Tories though. In fact in 2008 Johnson only scraped in when nationally Labour received it's lowest national vote in 40 years. The Labour vote actually held up in London in 2008 against the national trend.
A similar thing happened in Croydon last month - only in reverse. Against the London wide trend Labour lost control of Croydon, not because voters switched from Labour to the Tories but because the Labour vote either stayed at home or went to another non-Tory party.
In the Tory wards voter turnout remained stable but in all the Labour wards turnout was significantly down. Disgusted by Croydon's Labour Group's mismanagement of the council many Labour voters simply stayed home.
Some of them voted for other parties, for the first time in 20 years there is now a LibDem councillor, and for the first time ever there are 2 Green councillors.
Labour's primary problem was not that Labour voters switched to the Tories, it was that either stayed at home or voted for another anti-Tory party. Trying to be more like the Tories to win voters would not have helped them. Indeed many voters were seriously asking what the difference was.
And this is why Labour struggles to get elected. There is not enough traditional Labour voters out there, many working class people are surprisingly Tory centric, many don't vote (therefore are not Labour voters) and a lot have voted Labour because they thought it meant more for them but the dog whistle racist, nationalistic rubbish Boris shamelessly pushes appeals more.
Why not try and pull in some of the more traditional Tory voters, I'm not talking about the blue rinse brigade but the more educated professionals who probably are a bit right of center in their views, they have more to lose when it comes to the grand redistribution plans of the left. They might actually vote for a more stable leader like Starmer, I absolutely fit into this category, I even voted for Corbyn (out of sheer desperation to not vote for Boris), I'm much happier voting for Starmer. Politics has gone beyond political polarisation into populist La La land, before politics start to work again we need to pull back from the current idiocy. Then you can start getting all uppity about whether the current government is left leaning enough.
Then you can start getting all uppity about whether the current government is left leaning enough.
Uppity?
Perhaps you might want to ponder how we ended up with this populist shit to begin with?
Your masterplan has been tried and thats why we are where we are.
With most people pissed off and disillusioned that all politicians are the same since for a while they all chased the more educated professionals and expected everyone else to doff their caps and wait.
Problem is they all got uppity and voted for a change, any change.
So how exactly is it going to be different this time? Aside from the starting baseline having been dragged far to the right?
I made a very easy prediction of some sort of tax cut next from the Tory party.
Which will leave Labour where?
Labour are going to need to come up with something startling damn quick as we head into recession.
The long forensic game is not going to cut it
(Clue for Rachel it should be massive investment not tax cuts. Because if you can 'afford' tax cuts you can 'afford' investment.)
And this is why Labour struggles to get elected. There is not enough traditional Labour voters out there, many working class people are surprisingly Tory centric,
Agree. My mum and dad were tory voters yet couldn't have been more working class. They would never ever vote Labour and after many years of discussion with them they were never going to change from that. They just don't see how the tory party was not good for them in their position or their friends and family.
Why not try and pull in some of the more traditional Tory voters, I’m not talking about the blue rinse brigade but the more educated professionals who probably are a bit right of center in their views, they have more to lose when it comes to the grand redistribution plans of the left.
Agree again. I am in a well paid industry and every single person I have discussed politics with over the years is a tory voter. They fear Labour and Corbyn made that far worse for them.
While I sit and argue for a fairer society based on socialist ideals I can see that is not what those around me want however much that doesn't make sense to me.
While I sit and argue for a fairer society based on socialist ideals I can see that is not what those around me want however much that doesn’t make sense to me
To me I always saw Corbyn as traditional Labour. So many voters - "I'm traditionally Labour but I can't vote for Corbyn."
Made zero sense to me.
Anyway the middle ground will eventually have their shoes taken off and then whether they like socialism or not they will be looking for their support.
Also with Corbyn gone and the Brexit vote sort of behind us why didn't Starmer try Starmer and left-wing?
He didn't have to gobble up all the right-wing sentiment?
I actually think Labour have a big communication problem - that is taking left wing ideals to the establishment is just plane tricky. Luckily for them cost of living will do their job for them.
With most people pissed off and disillusioned that all politicians are the same since for a while they all chased the more educated professionals and expected everyone else to doff their caps and wait.
And the same educated professionals courted by the labour right parrot the lie that working class people are morons and idiots who don't know what's best for them. They don't not vote for labour because they're tories (as Kerley would have us believe), but because they rightfully conclude that labour offer them nothing.
Problem is they all got uppity and voted for a change, any change.
Careful, you're in dannyh/gardetiger nazi sympathiser territory here.
And as an anecdotal example of the difficulties labour will have mobilising their core vote, I was chatting with a mate last night in the pub and we spent a fair bit of time struggling with the paradox and Hobsons choice of desperately wanting to get rid of the tories but having to vote for Starmer's labour party to do it. If people like myself and my mate are less than enthusiastic about voting for them, how the hell are labour going to get less politically engaged people out to polling booths?
I actually think Labour have a big communication problem
Have you read the report that was commissioned after the 2019 election? It makes for interesting reading . You're spot on though about communications problems. I'm not sure it's any better TBH
An interesting timesradio focus group - Wakefield - first time Conservative voters 2019.
Please read the whole thing for context and Boz Bashing but - this bit stuck out for me about Labour:
https://twitter.com/jamesjohnson252/status/1534829739474567169?s=20&t=kkRy6EGeThFdpif3tRq5DA
https://twitter.com/jamesjohnson252/status/1534829741865418752?s=20&t=kkRy6EGeThFdpif3tRq5DA
An interesting timesradio focus group – Wakefield – first time Conservative voters 2019.
They've correctly concluded that no one in parliament is doing anything to help them. I don't think it'll be too long before people are on the streets. The recent hikes in fuel and energy are just the start. The government is doing nothing about it, and labour are offering no real alternatives. The reality is quickly sinking in that things are only going to get worse. Add that to other problems like the collapse in health care services, transport chaos and the ongoing crisis in housing it's got all the hallmarks of a country sliding into chaos. I think we're about to find out what it's like to live in a collapsing economy and society.
The main reason? Keir Starmer. They described Starmer as "weak", a "slippery slimeball", "a people pleaser", having "no vision" and "someone who opposes for opposition's sake".
Well winning over "first time 2019 Conservative voters" isn't Starmer's priority, the belief, according to Peter Mandelson, is that with Corbyn gone and brexit done they simply come back to where they belong.
The focus is to win over traditional Tory voters by apparently convincing them Labour would be far better at implementing Tory policies.
As a more typical working-class voter than some might expect I strongly supported Labour in 2017, I didn't support Labour in 2019, and I have no intention of supporting Labour in 2024. And no, like the opinions expressed in the survey above it doesn't make me a Tory.
I do like "slippery slimeball" btw, it really does hit the nail on the head. Mind so does people pleaser, no vision, and opposition for opposition's sake.
They’ve correctly concluded that no one in parliament is doing anything to help them.
They voted those people into parliament. Voting to "get Brexit done" has implications. The shit storm that is coming... poor man of Europe again, with a right wing government itching to tear up workers rights and make the rich richer off of the back of falling quality of life and increased insecurity for the less well off... shouldn't come as a surprise to any voter.