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Blimey, I sincerely hope that Ed Davey is wrong. The very last thing that the Ukraine War (and Europe) needs is an escalation and more countries to be directly involved.
The whole idea of the UK sending "peacekeeping" troops to Ukraine where they are likely to come in direct contact with Russian troops is madness. Starmer has already pointed out that would need air support from the United States, something that would clearly not happen.
The UK and France are in no position to decide the outcome of this tragic conflict, to stand any chance of doing so would require at the very least United States involvement, if not a full-scale NATO attack.
Bearing in mind that Russia is nuclear armed, has vast territory sprawling a huge area of the world's land mass, and the lessons of Afghanistan and Iraq, it would be lunacy.
The Russian-Ukraine War is horrific and absolutely tragic, it needs to stop. De-escalation is the way forward, not pouring more petrol onto the fire. However unpalatable it might feel it will require concessions on all sides.... Russia, Ukraine, and NATO.
Russia's security concerns need to be addressed, Starmer's public announcements of the inevitability of Ukraine's NATO membership does nothing to help achieve that. NATO should have been wound down after the end of the cold war, not expanded. Now that seems even less feasible.
Still, we know that governments need a constant potential threat, real or unreal, to rally voters, and justify military spending.
Russia's security concerns need to be addressed,
Russia needs to get the f*** out of Ukraine, executing prisoners of war, of deporting children, look at Syria, at North Africa, Central Asia, at the cyber attacks on the Baltics. Sadly there is only one end, Western Tanks in Red Square.
Even a ceasefire today only means Russia rearms and comes back again. This war started in 2014, it has seen civilian airliners shot down.
Russia's security concerns need to be addressed,
Lols
Russias 'security concerns' have always been the flimsiest of pretexts for grabbing more land
After what happened last time you'd have to be incredibly naive to think that they won't use a truce to re-arm and come back again for mote. Which is why Ukraine need the sort of guarantees provided by peacekeepers of some sort, but with more backing than last time.
Russia's security concerns need to be addressed,
Russia's "security concerns" amount to hating the fact that all their former subjugated neighbours reject Rússkiy mir and look towards the West.
It's Farage's closeness to trump that marks him out, and should be used to expose and embarrass him in the view of voters.
It’s this that’s going to cost Farage and Reform the most, could well the point in history where they are finished.
Lols
This is why I almost never post on the Ukraine thread.
I fully accept that it is totally impossible to have any sort of discussion on the subject without everything being interpreted in very simple black and white terms.
However whatever the opinions on that particular echo chamber it would appear that the sentiments behind my comment finds traction with a fairly wide audience and Starmer's insistence that Ukraine's NATO membership is inevitable is fanciful nonsense.
As is obviously his apparent belief that British troops can somehow help the situation.
Russia's security concerns need to be addressed
You are Jeremy Corbyn and I claim my signed copy of Joseph Stalin's biography 'It was only a few tens of millions, it should have been more' and the accompanying Seamus Milne book 'Its not like he's Hitler, is it? He wasn't that bad'
You are Jeremy Corbyn
Why Jeremy Corbyn binners? I don't know what Corbyn's views are the issue but I do know that Ukraine will not be joining NATO any time soon. So why do you think that might be, eh?
You can huff and puff as much as you want but at the end of the day this tragic conflict will have a negotiated settlement, unless you think WW3 is a better option, and part of that settlement will include security guarantees for Russia. The idea that there could be a settlement without that is obviously ridiculous.
I'm not sure about your views on the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace but here you are binners, something written by someone who isn't called Jeremy Corbyn making the point :
Neutrality: An Alternative to Ukraine’s Membership in NATO
https://www.cfr.org/article/neutrality-alternative-ukraines-membership-nato
"The prospect of long-term Ukrainian neutrality after the war could bring Russia to the table."
As is obviously his apparent belief that British troops can somehow help the situation.
As part of a multinational peacekeeping force AFTER a negotiated settlement, wasn't it?
and part of that settlement will include security guarantees for Russia. The idea that there could be a settlement without that is obviously ridiculous.
That prompts a couple of questions in my mind. Genuine questions.
In what way is Russia's security threatened that it needs guarantees to protect it? Who or what was going to attack Russia before it invaded Ukraine?
Is it equally ridiculous not to expect the other party in any settlement to be given security guarantees?
Russia's security concerns need to be addressed,
A fair comment and didn't deserve a "Lol" response.
However, iirc Russia's security concerns were about Ukraine in NATO on it's borders being a risk to Russia. Which is obviously bollocks, because Russia had several NATO countries on its border before all this and didn't feel the need to invade them, so that doesn't stand up. And now they have Finland as well.
The sad thing is that the previous security guarantees made to Ukraine by western nations when they gave up their nuclear weapons were not followed through when Russia first annexed Ukraine territory.
That made the west look soft, which emboldened Putin to finally invade. It also made the Ukrainians believe that nothing less than NATO membership would protect them from Russian aggression.
Which is why nations must stand up to any type of bullying early, before it spirals tragically out of control. See Trump as a case in point.
Western peacekeepers have stood up to and faced down Russian forces before, in the former Yugoslavia. Though if the stories about which British officer was responsible for preventing WW3 are to be believed, it was only because he threatened to sing if they didn't withdraw.
I fully accept that it is totally impossible to have any sort of discussion on the subject without everything being interpreted in very simple black and white terms.
However whatever the opinions on that particular echo chamber it would appear that the sentiments behind my comment finds traction with a fairly wide audience
Uhuh. So it's an echo chamber if your opinions are challenged, but not where your sentiments touch a perceived wider audience of agreement?
It's the wrong thread for Ukraine, but your assessment of the realities and options is very wide of the mark. That's not because the Ukraine thread is an echo chamber, but because your viewpoint can't or won't accommodate those things. That's not a reflection of the quality of debate or commentary on that issue, but of your interpretation and expression of it.
Anyway, Farage. Every opportunity to hurt him politically needs to be taken, and now is a key time to do it.
Why Jeremy Corbyn binners?
Well it’s not like he's always been a Kremlin apologist or anything, is it?
I see that once again, as with Brexit, the opinions of the far left and far right are aligning with each other. Go far enough to the extremes in either direction and they end up meeting around the back, by the bins
Well it’s not like he's always been a Kremlin apologist or anything, is it?
So it turns out that I am like Corbyn because like him I am "a Kremlin apologist" ? Wow, even by your standards that's pretty low.
Yep, shit like that confirms just how pointless it is to try to have any sort of sensible or balanced debate on the issue.
And well done for ignoring the fact that Corbyn repeatedly warned many years ago about the threat that Putin and the Russian oligarchs posed. He was of course ignored, as they bankrolled the Tory Party.
Btw I assuming that the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace are also 'apologists for the Kremlin', since they make the same point that I and many others, including foreign governments, make?
I think even Donald Trump would struggle to come up with something like that!
Diaper Don hasn’t got the intelligence to come up with something like that, but his handlers and enablers in the far-Right Christo-fascist movement are perfectly capable of doing it. They’re well-read and have a good grasp of history and know exactly how Christians and their religion can and have been influenced into doing what those with malign intentions want.
Anyway, Farage. Every opportunity to hurt him politically needs to be taken, and now is a key time to do it.
He’s announced he’s relinquishing the ownership of the party, apparently; maybe Donny and Elonia, flush with all the money they’ve been stripping out of the US economy, have offered Farage a job - maybe Special Envoy to the Russian enclave that Russia lets the Ukrainians grudgingly keep, once America and Russia have stripped it of all of its assets.
I see that once again, as with Brexit, the opinions of the far left and far right are aligning with each other. Go far enough to the extremes in either direction and they end up meeting around the back, by the bins
I agree, here is a handy pie chart for the hard of thinking:
They’re well-read and have a good grasp of history
I think the problem with the US Christo-fascist right is that while they'd very much like to think that, their problem is that they're not.
At the risk of crossing the streams, from a post on the Musk thread, Farage is attending the CPAC conference* where Bannon did a Nazi salute. Time to ask him some probing questions and see how the piggy squeals.
*as opposed to being in his constituency.
I agree, here is a handy pie chart for the hard of thinking:
Yup you would need to be hard of thinking to support that.
The fishhook theory has rather more historical support, although still on flimsy foundations, vs the horseshoe theory.
The fishhook theory has rather more historical support
I guess if you're far left, the fishhook theory is attractive as it at least exculpates you and implies criticism of political ideologues you dislike
Though if the stories about which British officer was responsible for preventing WW3 are to be believed, it was only because he threatened to sing if they didn't withdraw.
Beautiful.
I guess if you're far left, the fishhook theory is attractive as it at least exculpates you and implies criticism of political ideologues you dislike
Fascinating how you get so agitated over this but failed to get lash out at Binners and Mattyfez and their support for the horseshoe theory (admittedly a garbled interpretation) .
I wonder why that is?
Pie charts (it looked like a doughnut to me) horseshoes, or fishhooks, it's bollocks designed to detract from the fact that Putin's and the Russian oligarchs very useful idiots have of course always been right-wingers. After all they share so much in common, and the Russian oligarchs have so much money.
Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Peter Mandelson, Tony Blair, all found the pull of the Russian oligarchs quite irresistible.
In contrast the Left has always denounced the clear links between the UK right-wing establishment and Putin's oligarchs.
This was Jeremy Corbyn's advice to Tony Blair well over 20 years ago :
When the Prime Minister travels to Moscow—I imagine that he is already on his way there—and meets President Putin this evening, I hope that he will convey the condemnation of millions of people around the world of the activities of the Russian army in Chechnya and of what it is doing to ordinary people there.
You can be sure that Tony Blair didn't convey the condemnation of millions of people around the world, after all the Chechnyan people are not Europeans living in a Christian country like our fellow Europeans in Ukraine. Besides, Tony Blair went on to oversee the pointless slaughter of quite a few Muslims himself.
More background here to the situation that's come back to bite us on the arse :
"For the Tories and the Labour establishment, mocking Corbyn distracts from their own long-lived collaboration with Vladimir Putin and his oligarchs."
“If I turned up at the White House, I’d make sure I was wearing a suit, my shoes were cleaned,” Farage told LBC.
You have to assume that Nigel Farage isn't aware that Winston Churchill [The greatest Briton who ever lived] turned up to the White House wearing a boiler suit.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205140997
Maybe Winston Churchill [The greatest Briton who ever lived] wasn't quite as "incredibly old fashioned" as Farage claims Trump is.
Not much chance of him making it the Whitehouse, Trump and President Musk are completely ignoring him.
Lord Far Far
“If I turned up at the White House, I’d make sure I was wearing a suit, my shoes were cleaned,” Farage told LBC.
You have to assume that Nigel Farage isn't aware that Winston Churchill [The greatest Briton who ever lived] turned up to the White House wearing a boiler suit.
Trump and his line manager, Musk seem to be ok with wearing baseball caps in the whitethouse... 😉
Also... Human excrement 'kid rock' seems to have a 'green card' for playing fancy dress as some sort black pimp caricature, so it would appear the dress code is somewhat 'wooly'...
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The party that fractured the Tories is fracturing. And all because of Musk and this fascination with Stephen Yaxley Lennon. I’d happily see that super toxic bazillionaire vapourised tomorrow.
Yup interesting to see where this goes, Musk is positioning himself as kingmaker of the hard right,
Id say that reform is more than just a Farage personality cult now, its a protest party that's a viable voting option for millions, but its internal structure is built around a farage owned PLC , could get messy and you can bet musk will be itching to take a bigger role
Blimey Rupert Lowe makes Nigel Farage look like a moderate. According to him MPs should be paid £250k, the BBC as a “cancer at the heart of Britain”, he is supportive of Stephen Yaxley Lennon, and thinks Trump's approach to Ukraine is sensible.
Personally I would be surprised if any serious fracturing occurred in Reform at the present time quite simply because they are riding so high in the polls, it's difficult to see how there could be a challenge to the leadership whilst things are looking so positive for them.
I do fully expect them to fall out with each other and be at eachother's throats post the next general election though, the far-right are constantly at war with eachother and can't see it standing the test of time.
Rupert Lowe you say? Wonder why he's got it in for the BBC?
BBC News - Reform UK refers MP Rupert Lowe to police
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4ge5jl62nro
Personally I would be surprised if any serious fracturing occurred in Reform at the present time
Starts with a crack, then a split, and then....
Better Friday than last week
the fagash fuhrer will tolerate no non believers in his ego vehicle/cult/cash cow
Lowe doesn't have the support to split the party, but he was the one Musk tipped over farage, will be interesting to see if space Karen sticks his oar in again.
Lowe said it was "no surprise" that the party's "vexatious statement" had been released the day after he had criticised party leader Nigel Farage.
In an interview with the Daily Mail, Lowe said the party remained a "protest party led by the Messiah" under Farage's leadership.
I actually found his attack on his own party and his leader yesterday both remarkable and surprising, not least because Reform are currently doing very well indeed (latest poll out today they are still 1% in front of Labour) my immediate thoughts was that he wanted to make a bid for the leadership.
But why now I thought so soon after a general election and now that Reform have almost doubled their support since then. I suspect what actually happened was that Rupert Lowe got wind of what was about to happen and yesterday was a preemptive strike by him, now he's claiming that he is a victim.
I can't imagine that Reform were able to make a legal case against him which they could then pass on to the police in what, a day?
I like how he has apparently said that there isn't any "credible evidence" against him. So he doesn't deny that evidence exists then.
How do you expect to have party discipline when your chief whip is 30p Lee? 😂
30p Lee apparently pulled out of gbnews show tonight, he'd be the first one to watch for jumping to a new party, whatever happened to Cummings proposed one? I know dom is desperate to get space karens backing.
Theres a truth that people don't vote for divided parties , but a good chunk of reform support is protest vore regardless.
but a good chunk of reform support is protest vore regardless.
Absolutely, no doubt about it. And not least all the support they have picked up since the general election when they received 14% of the vote.
I very much doubt many people who now say they would vote Reform could give you a list of their policies, I certainly couldn't.