[Closed] End Halal petition

I've never met anybody who's put enough research into the provenance of their own diet to gain the moral high ground over the average British meat eater.

if they (sic) are doing it simply for diet/health reasons alone, not for personal ethics regarding animal welfare and the environment - then why would it be a 'moral high ground' issue?

I think that assuming/conferring 'moral high ground' is contentious and derailing in such a debate, ie divisive rhetoric?

Same goes for the 'Good honest Bacon vs Halal' 'debate'. Refer to the videos I posted. Which animals are in dire terror/distress? And that's not including the transport/waiting to be slaughtered issues.

Yeh basically, become a vegan or sit back down and adress yourself.

My girlfriends cat is a merciless killing and torture machine, maybe I should kill the cat to end the suffering of the shrew.

ahm oot. (Taps out)

Me too. Those having trouble with some very basic concepts, follow Vegan Sidekick (facebook and all the usual sites).

[img] [/img]

Well that is kind of a point Bob_Summer is it not. I've spent enough hours watching a combine header to see what goes in one let alone the massacre left behind as the Kites and Buzzards mop up the suddenly exposed survivors! All so a few vegans can not eat a nice tasty Rasher 😆

It becomes a moral high ground issue when they choose to preach to others and infer that their solution is somehow morally more acceptable, righteous or less impactful. You have to go a long way off grid from the modern world to wash the blood from your hands I'm afraid.

The 2 I've caught by rod & line, (both accidental/over minimum size limit/not berried hens), & all the live crab I've bought have all been put in the freezer for 3 hours before boiling.

That is just awful.

In what way is it awful?

Thanks Bob! That picture nicely surmises the kind of smug but ignorant and naive rationale employed by your average vegan fantasist 😆

In what way is it awful?

They lose flavour and tend to be tough

Took 5 pages this time... 🙄

They lose flavour and tend to be tough

What's your address? I'll send you a pot & you can decide?
Bought live at £2.60 a kilo from Hendon fish quay, Sunderland last Wednesday.

How TF can cooked & dressed crab be tough??

Well, the toughness was in reference to lobster and with both, especially cooked live, I would only really eat in shell, rather than dressed. I think something about the chilling process damages the cell walls. Or it may be the cooking from cold which messes with the steaming.

I would only really eat in shell, rather than dressed. I think something about the chilling process damages the cell walls. Or it may be the cooking from cold which messes with the steaming.

So Charlie,

I think something about the chilling process damages the cell walls.

&

Or it may be the cooking from cold which messes with the steaming.

So in actual fact....you've no idea?

Have you ever in your life cooked a lobster or crab & eaten it?

Wer'e digressing & It's my fault.

ransos
Yeah whatever

So in actual fact....you've no idea?

Have you ever in your life cooked a lobster or crab & eaten it?

Wer'e digressing & It's my fault.

What? I know the result but not the mechanism. Two possibles are suggested. Because I don't know why cooking from cold makes it less tasty and less tender you deduce that I have never cooked live crab and lobster?

So in actual fact....you've no idea

I don't get it

Bloody Nora Charlie,

You said..'I think something about the chilling process damages the cell walls'. If you only think it, then you don't know.

Then, 'or it may be the cooking from cold that messes with the steaming'

If it may, then it may not.

Also, (just to be pedantic) I didn't deduce if you'd cooked & eaten crab/lobster, I asked. As in...

Have you ever in your life cooked a lobster or crab & eaten it?

I'm still willing to let you have a pot of mine. 8)

Be quick though, I've only got 6 left. 😆 (not halal though)

alvern Rider - Member
The question was.
Apparently not, ie

Yes, I understand all that
It was a rhetorical setup for you to call it 'OTT'.

Nope, the question was why it's suddenly become fashionable. My brother was vegan years ago us no one took any notice. It has become a thing now. Carry on with your self righteous nonsense though, it feeds the forum.

Six pages whilst I've been asleep and still going strong...

Six pages whilst I've been asleep and still going strong...

We've digressed though! 😛

I've learned so much about lobster and crab preparation it makes me wish I wasn't a self righteous, vegetarian, lefty, Muslim loving, fieldmouse murdering, free speech hating follower of dietary fashions.

Thanks TurnerGuy, I've signed it.
That barbaric so called religious slaughter has no place in our society.
Disgusting.

Did you sign it all in capitals though? It won't count if you don't do it all in capitals.

Anyone want some dressed crab??

Be quick, there'll be none worth having till next April/May.
Mines all halal/humanely killed/boiled too! 8)

No thanks, don't like it dressed.

But actually,we have stumbled across a very interesting and contested issue of crab and whether or not is haram or halal and further more does boiling it alive change that. Depends what kind of Isalm

Boiling crab/lobster live (by which I mean very cold or subdued) is the only way, otherwise you risk the chance of some serious 'food poisoning', for want of a better explanation.
There is a way of killing crabs & lobsters without the use of low temperatures & involve the use of a large needle/knife, however I don't think many people would be proficient in that method.

To most people here I will firmly be in the lefty yogurt knitting section. I am now confused due to my meat habit?

I genuinely did not think this morning that I would go away from this thread with so much knowledge about crabs and lobsters.

esselgruntfuttock - Member - Quote

Six pages whilst I've been asleep and still going strong...

We've digressed though!

So I see. I must admit I didn't predict the crab angle this might take...

Mmmmmmmmm! Crab.

and won't be signing any thinly veiled racist poll as virtually every takeaway in town displays the halal badge and on the odd occasion I order in the food is lovely.

You do realise Islam is a religion? Nothing to do with race.

Signed it.

ransos,

You could've saved a lot of typing by saying that in the first place.

You do realise Islam is a religion? Nothing to do with race.

Ah, racist defence number two. Coming in just behind "I'm not racist because I have a Muslim friend..."

Ah, racist defence number two. Coming in just behind "I'm not racist because I have a Muslim friend..."

Now you're just being anti-semantic

You do realise Islam is a religion? Nothing to do with race.

Yes, yes I do. I could go in to why I think the driver behind the poll is racist but have better things to do with my time than talk to a wall.

'Racism' is a sideshow here.

But at least let's choose our preferred method of handling and killing before commenting or signing petitions/signing up to self-righteousness* Again, for those who missed them in the whole crab-meat + anti-vegan sideshows:

Videos below.

If it makes it easier then think of it as a two horse-race or a fashion show/popularity contest. Am I backing 'Ham-Fisted' or 'Doner Wanano' ?

* What is current EU policy on halal slaughtering? Because apparently according to May's government - we are not considering any non-EU changes to UK animal welfare until after the UK leaves the EU. So what use is a petition today? Just saying...

[url= https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/42002 ]As this e-petition has received more than 10 000 signatures, the relevant Government department have provided the following response: The Government would prefer to see the export of meat or germ plasm rather than livestock, and that animals are slaughtered as close as practical to their point of production. However, the export of livestock for slaughter within the EU is a legal trade. To ban the trade, either directly or by indirect means, would be illegal and would undermine the principle of the free-movement of goods enshrined in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union[/url]

Thats just your opinion and doesn't apply to me so I'm free to ignore it :O)

You are indeed free to demonstrate that you do not understand what is written.

Interesting response Malvern Rider. So presumably, post brexit the export of livestock will end because "The Government would prefer to see the export of meat or germ plasm rather than livestock".

I look forward to that.

So presumably, post brexit the export of livestock will end because "The Government would prefer to see the export of meat or germ plasm rather than livestock"

I look forward to that.

Me too. The animals will arrive from good long lives with their offspring in grassy fields, until it's time to arrive at a beautiful sanctuary where they will fall asleep wafted by a magical gas and British Standard birdsong. Their smiling carcasses shal then be transported safely via Brexit [s]Campaign[/s] Victory Buses (once they've been emptied of all those lovely billions that have regenerated our NHS)

Malvern Rider

Videos below.

Do you think 5 minute clips are representative of an entire industry? Even the most humane killing and butchering processes would be shocking and too graphic for most people if they were presented in a video format because they are completely removed from the food chain.

Tens of millions of animals are slaughtered each year, there are bound to be some people in some places who are not fit for the job and some animals will suffer. Apparently 25% of animals are slaughtered in accordance with religious practices and there appears to be little or no exact information as to how exactly that is done.

Halal, Kosher, whatever there should be no place for superstition and ancient taboos when it comes to ensuring the best practices for slaughtering animals as humanely as is practically possible.

Just watched about two minutes of the second video, thanks. Looked like a fairly quick and effective way of killing lots of sheep to me. Has put me off kebabs for a little while though, so maybe job done?

Just watched about two minutes of the second video, thanks. Looked like a fairly quick and effective way of killing lots of sheep to me. Has put me off kebabs for a little while though, so maybe job done?

One vote for religious 'no-stun' slaughter in an industrial environment is not my intention, certainly not my job. My intention was to post two videos hopefully showing this 'two horse race' nonsense for what it is. Maybe watch the whole thing before commenting?

Ah, racist defence number two. Coming in just behind "I'm not racist because I have a Muslim friend..."

Sorry, but you're talking shite. Stop conflating race with religion. It serves no purpose other than to divert attention from the real issues here, which is (to my mind at least): Are some traditional practices of certain religions compatible with a liberal democracy?

Are some traditional practices of certain religions compatible with a liberal democracy?

Yes, absolutely.

Sorry, but you're talking shite. Stop conflating race with religion. It serves no purpose other than to divert attention from the real issue

...which apparently includes you hiding behind a tired trope to kid yourself that you're not pigeon-holing a minority community in order to make yourself feel superior.

Unless you're a strict vegan, complaining about one method of how animals are killed for food seems more than a little hypocritical.

which apparently includes you hiding behind a tired trope to kid yourself that you're not pigeon-holing a minority community in order to make yourself feel superior.

See you're doing it again. You make assumptions and hide behind 'a tired trope' to stifle a debate. And how did superior get into this?

Do you think that all practises (and beliefs) of some religions are compatible with a liberal democracy?

Unless you're a strict vegan, complaining about one method of how animals are killed for food seems more than a little hypocritical

So I can't be a carnivore and have my meat slaughtered in the most humane way possible?

You do realise Islam is a religion? Nothing to do with race.

Well, it is a bit. That's kind of why people of certain cultures and certain races and certain regions tend to be of certain religions

Do you think that all practises (and beliefs) of some religions are compatible with a liberal democracy?

So I can't be a carnivore and have my meat slaughtered in the most humane way possible?

You can, but you are concentrating on a tiny factor of the overall process. Do you ensure that every bit of meat you eat has been bred in the most humane way possible?

No you don't, but those months/years of the animals life make the last 10 minutes pretty insignificant.

Yes, absolutely

How tragic.

So I can't be a carnivore and have my meat slaughtered in the most humane way possible?

That's the point though. Many on the thread have questioned as to why one way is more humane than the other with the ultimate answer being there's not a particularly humane way so it seems daft to get over excited about halal (or kosher, which seems to fall by the wayside in this conversation. I wonder why?) if you intend as I do to keep eating meat.

So I can't be a carnivore and have my meat slaughtered in the most humane way possible?

On the assumption that you can't come up with a way of killing you or any other Homo sapiens (we are after all just animals) in a way that you wouldn't mind, even if it occurred at a time not of your choosing, no.

There's no such thing as humane slaughter, especially from the animal's perspective

zokes -

There's no such thing as humane slaughter, especially from the animal's perspective

Yes but there are such things as more humane slaughter and less humane slaughter and we should strive for the former and try to eliminate the latter. Taboos and superstitions shouldn't be part of the discussion.

The .gov [url= https://www.gov.uk/guidance/halal-and-kosher-slaughter ]guidlines[/url] around Halal and Kosher slaughter seem oddly contradictory with best practices regarding humane slaughter and it should be noted that in instances where the halal or kosher slaughter goes wrong they are instructed to defer to the slaughterhouse's guidelines and implement non kosher and non halal practices to put the animal out of its misery.

Yes but there are such things as more humane slaughter and less humane slaughter and we should strive for the former and try to eliminate the latter. Taboos and superstitions shouldn't be part of the discussion.

orangespyderman - Member

Quite right. Which is exactly why I wonderered (it was referred to as whataboutery at the time) why on earth the petition mentions religious slaughter specifically and not just campaigning for improvement (obligatory stunning with no exemption, tighter controls, better food labelling to enable choice etc).

Presumably because outwith of religious slaughter those guidelines are supposed to be adhered to.

Yes but there are such things as more humane slaughter and less humane slaughter and we should strive for the former and try to eliminate the latter.

You'd be down with the costs of doing it on farm from a distance with a clean shot from a rifle then?

Presumably because outwith of religious slaughter those guidelines are supposed to be adhered to.

There is also a non-negligible risk, in my opinion that banning religious slaughter will drive it underground and make it even harder to regulate effectively, and again if welfare is a concern that would be a big step backwards, surely.

zokes - Still not a customer

You'd be down with the costs of doing it on farm from a distance with a clean shot from a rifle then?

I would. But then I'm surrounded by farms and have several close relatives who are sheep and cattle farmers, my dad worked 20 years as a butcher and I could supplement my family's meat requirements by fishing and hunting.

But that all kind of ignores the fact that there are millions of animals raised for slaughter as part of a multi billion pound industry global industry. Best and perfect aren't the same and it's a pretty reductive argument to dismiss everything unless it is absolutely perfect.

There is also a non-negligible risk, in my opinion that banning religious slaughter will drive it underground and make it even harder to regulate effectively, and again if welfare is a concern that would be a big step backwards, surely.

Or conversely, religious people when confronted with the dilemma of eating non religious meat or not eating meat decide to eat meat and take a small step towards living a more rational secular life.

Yes, absolutely

Why so ?
There are lots of religions out there, some of them pretty benign

what if people voted for a religious government? Would that be democratic?

[i]some of them pretty benign[/i]

go on then, give an example.

Q:Whats a vegan's favourite meat substitute?

A: The high horse.

At least 10 pages...

...said post on page 1, not quite there yet chaps...

some of them pretty benign

go on then, give an example.

erm.. Confucianism

or... Unitarianism

or erm..Tenrikyo

go on then, give an example

the prince philip movement

bonkers, but fairly benign

[i]prince philip movement[/i]

sounds like shit 😉

ba-dum tsch!

There is also a non-negligible risk, in my opinion that banning religious slaughter will drive it underground and make it even harder to regulate effectively, and again if welfare is a concern that would be a big step backwards, surely.

That took six pages too long to be mentioned.

If the UK were to ban Halal slaughter, do you think the Muslims who have been following their religion for millennia will a) go "right you are then chief, fair enough," or b) continue as they always have only in illegal, unregulated abattoirs?

The solution, fairly self-evidently, isn't to ban anything. Rather we need to have a method of slaughter which both meets UK / EU standards and satisfies their requirements. And, critically, bloody well enforce it properly.

Halal slaughter isn't intended to be cruel, quite the opposite. "Use your sharpest knife" is as opposed to bludgeoning the poor bugger to death with sticks. At the time it was probably the best, most humane method. Time and technology have moved on since then but religion generally and Islam particularly is very resistant to change. Nonetheless, (most) Muslims and non-Muslims alike equally want to reduce suffering. This shouldn't be a big ask.

Fixed it for you, simples. Now, about that World Peace...

Excellent! Time for the End Halal Petition Petition?

Cougar - Moderator

If the UK were to ban Halal slaughter, do you think the Muslims who have been following their religion for millennia will a) go "right you are then chief, fair enough," or b) continue as they always have only in illegal, unregulated abattoirs?

The threat of people breaking laws shouldn't be the determining factor as to whether or not laws should be made or amended.

Halal slaughter isn't intended to be cruel, quite the opposite. "Use your sharpest knife" is as opposed to bludgeoning the poor bugger to death with sticks. At the time it was probably the best, most humane method. Time and technology have moved on since then but religion generally and Islam particularly is very resistant to change. Nonetheless, (most) Muslims and non-Muslims alike equally want to reduce suffering. This shouldn't be a big ask.

Unfortunately it is a big ask because as you point out Islam is extremely resistant to change and halal slaughter seems to rule out stunning and therefore it's less likely to be as humane even in ideal circumstances.

Even in terms of basic practicalities ask yourself which is likely to be safer, more efficient and less likely to produce mistakes -

a) someone places a pole or gun shaped object on an animals skull and pulls the trigger while a queue of live animals filter through a crush or

b) someone (who has to be a muslim or a jew) prays over a razor sharp sword which he must place under the neck of a live animal which is in a queue of animals in a crush and administer a clean cut right the way through the neck?

The threat of people breaking laws shouldn't be the determining factor as to whether or not laws should be made or amended.

I didn't say it did. Rather I was positing that the efficacy of such a ban would be between "slim" and "none." Prohibition has proven time and again just how well it works.

Regardless of people breaking laws or not, should we not take into account whether a change to the law is likely to make a situation better or worse?

halal slaughter [b]seems to[/b] rule out stunning

"Seems to"? It either does or it doesn't. A quick Google would suggest that 84% of Halal slaughter in the UK is performed on pre-stunned animals, so it would "seem to" be the latter to me. We just need to work on that other 16%.

Even in terms of basic practicalities ask yourself which is likely to be safer, more efficient and less likely to produce mistakes -

Search me, I've never tried it. The weak link in both of those cases is "people," to which the answer is "regulation and training" is it not?

someone (who has to be a muslim or a jew) prays over a razor sharp sword

I'm not seeing how praying makes the job any more risky, and as far as I know it's a knife not a sword. Nice emotive use of hyperbole, though.

Interesting that you should mention the Jewish though. The Jewish method of "shechita" expressly prohibits pre-stunning. Maybe we should ban that instead.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/08/what-does-halal-method-animal-slaughter-involve ]Sauce[/url] (among others).

ask yourself which is likely to be safer, more efficient and less likely to produce mistakes -

IMHO meat eaters want to be able to say they are doing it as nicely as possible - and certainly they are not doing it as horribly as possible - but you cannot mass slaughter millions of animals every day and think it was all done humanely

*Electrical stunning
Birds are hung upside down by their legs on metal shackles along a moving conveyor belt.
They move along the production line to a stunning water bath; when the bird’s head makes contact with the water, an electrical circuit between the water bath and shackle is completed, which stuns the bird.
The conveyor belt then moves the birds to a mechanical neck cutter, which cuts the major blood vessels in the neck.

TBh not only do they not all end up stunned they dont all even end up dead after the neck cutter. Halal does at least lead to death 100% of the time

I didn't say it did. Rather I was positing that the efficacy of such a ban would be between "slim" and "none." Prohibition has proven time and again just how well it works.

Prohibition of drugs and alcohol isn't the same. Remember we are talking about the suffering of an animal here, not the needs of the consumer. Furthermore during prohibition of drugs and alcohol there weren't fully legal completely identical products available everywhere. All that would happen is that the market for kosher and halal meats would be flooded with non kosher non halal meat masquerading as kosher and hala because we know it's 100% identical and it's impossible to tell the difference.

"Seems to"? It either does or it doesn't. A quick Google would suggest that 84% of Halal slaughter in the UK is performed on pre-stunned animals, so it would "seem to" be the latter to me. We just need to work on that other 16%.

A quick google also suggests that religious slaughter is legally exempt from stunning and that from what I can tell the percentage of animals stunned, the method of stunning and the effectiveness of the stunning is open to interpretation.

Search me, I've never tried it. The weak link in both of those cases is "people," to which the answer is "regulation and training."

Imagine trying it. Which do you think is the more difficult and involving process? According to the RSPCA

"The level of restraint of conscious animals required for slaughter without pre-stunning was far greater than for conventional slaughter.

A large cut made across the neck of a conscious animal would “result in very significant pain and distress” before the animal loses consciousness (around 5 to 7 seconds for sheep, 22 to 40 seconds for adult cattle).

So it's fairly obvious which is more difficult.

I'm not seeing how praying makes the job any more risky, and as far as I know it's a knife not a sword. Nice emotive use of hyperbole, though.

You should probably go to your local slaughterhouse and get a feel for the process and understand the kind of environments in which these tasks are being carried out. A crush full of large animals braying and jostling with a floor covered in blood and shit isn't really an ideal environment for complacency or prayer and when I saw halal slaughter the kill operator used a sword which he kept in it's own fancy case and everything.

A crush full of large animals braying and jostling with a floor covered in blood and shit isn't really an ideal environment for complacency or prayer

All halal and kosher should be pre-stunned without exception. Anything less is medieval and backward.

[url= https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=94c_1443785485 ]Warning - graphic halal slaughter[/url]

meh

either your a vegetarian or you're not.. don't try and run from your guilt

(I'm not)

All halal and kosher should be pre-stunned without exception. Anything less is medieval and backward.

Of all the things to worry about in the meat supply chain, it's a long way down the list.

Warning - graphic halal slaughter

Yeah, it's pretty sick...and this is being done in the name of a belief system, religion of peace and all that...

There is nothing wrong with looking for the definitive standardized most humane method of slaughter and then implementing that across the board...religion should play no part in it.

Some people on here are of the view that the animal is for slaughter anyway so what does it matter how it's killed!?..really?!...let's all entertain ourselves with some bull fighting first because you know, the bull will end up dead and on a plate anyway so what does it matter how it ended up there...or perhaps some cockfighting before Sunday roast chicken?!...

...maybe just bring back fox hunting because farmers are shooting the foxes with rifles and they end up dead anyway so let's just allow horses and hounds to chase them first and tear them to pieces?!....in fact with fox hunting being rooted in history and tradition it has about as much legitimacy as the tradition of Halal slaughter.

It's brutal, granted, but in that camel vid they seem to lose blood pressure incredibly quickly! With a knife as sharp as theirs, I'd actually question how much suffering is involved.
My (probably naive ) hunch is that they would feel pain fleetingly, quickly be flooded with adrenaline and then experience some kind of euphoria as they became oxygen depleted.

I mean, if that's bollocks then brill, lets ban it but just because it's a bit gory doesn't mean it's necessarily bad?

Did I miss a link to some science? Is it bad?

There is nothing wrong with looking for the definitive standardized most humane method of slaughter

Some people on here are of the view that the animal is for slaughter anyway so what does it matter how it's killed!

Both are shitty cruel methods I am not sure what sense of moral well being you gain from yours being marginally less brutal and shitty than the other method - lets not discuss chickens though where there is nicer and more effective.

There's nothing magic at all, bolt stunning is humane compared to bleeding to death. This is neither a minor nor a marginal point.

What if they were stunned then bled to death?