[Closed] End Halal petition

Did you sign it all in capitals though? It won't count if you don't do it all in capitals.

Anyone want some dressed crab??

Be quick, there'll be none worth having till next April/May.
Mines all halal/humanely killed/boiled too! 8)

No thanks, don't like it dressed.

But actually,we have stumbled across a very interesting and contested issue of crab and whether or not is haram or halal and further more does boiling it alive change that. Depends what kind of Isalm

Boiling crab/lobster live (by which I mean very cold or subdued) is the only way, otherwise you risk the chance of some serious 'food poisoning', for want of a better explanation.
There is a way of killing crabs & lobsters without the use of low temperatures & involve the use of a large needle/knife, however I don't think many people would be proficient in that method.

To most people here I will firmly be in the lefty yogurt knitting section. I am now confused due to my meat habit?

I genuinely did not think this morning that I would go away from this thread with so much knowledge about crabs and lobsters.

esselgruntfuttock - Member - Quote

Six pages whilst I've been asleep and still going strong...

We've digressed though!

So I see. I must admit I didn't predict the crab angle this might take...

Mmmmmmmmm! Crab.

and won't be signing any thinly veiled racist poll as virtually every takeaway in town displays the halal badge and on the odd occasion I order in the food is lovely.

You do realise Islam is a religion? Nothing to do with race.

Signed it.

ransos,

You could've saved a lot of typing by saying that in the first place.

You do realise Islam is a religion? Nothing to do with race.

Ah, racist defence number two. Coming in just behind "I'm not racist because I have a Muslim friend..."

Ah, racist defence number two. Coming in just behind "I'm not racist because I have a Muslim friend..."

Now you're just being anti-semantic

You do realise Islam is a religion? Nothing to do with race.

Yes, yes I do. I could go in to why I think the driver behind the poll is racist but have better things to do with my time than talk to a wall.

'Racism' is a sideshow here.

But at least let's choose our preferred method of handling and killing before commenting or signing petitions/signing up to self-righteousness* Again, for those who missed them in the whole crab-meat + anti-vegan sideshows:

Videos below.

If it makes it easier then think of it as a two horse-race or a fashion show/popularity contest. Am I backing 'Ham-Fisted' or 'Doner Wanano' ?

* What is current EU policy on halal slaughtering? Because apparently according to May's government - we are not considering any non-EU changes to UK animal welfare until after the UK leaves the EU. So what use is a petition today? Just saying...

[url= https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/42002 ]As this e-petition has received more than 10 000 signatures, the relevant Government department have provided the following response: The Government would prefer to see the export of meat or germ plasm rather than livestock, and that animals are slaughtered as close as practical to their point of production. However, the export of livestock for slaughter within the EU is a legal trade. To ban the trade, either directly or by indirect means, would be illegal and would undermine the principle of the free-movement of goods enshrined in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union[/url]

Thats just your opinion and doesn't apply to me so I'm free to ignore it :O)

You are indeed free to demonstrate that you do not understand what is written.

Interesting response Malvern Rider. So presumably, post brexit the export of livestock will end because "The Government would prefer to see the export of meat or germ plasm rather than livestock".

I look forward to that.

So presumably, post brexit the export of livestock will end because "The Government would prefer to see the export of meat or germ plasm rather than livestock"

I look forward to that.

Me too. The animals will arrive from good long lives with their offspring in grassy fields, until it's time to arrive at a beautiful sanctuary where they will fall asleep wafted by a magical gas and British Standard birdsong. Their smiling carcasses shal then be transported safely via Brexit [s]Campaign[/s] Victory Buses (once they've been emptied of all those lovely billions that have regenerated our NHS)

Malvern Rider

Videos below.

Do you think 5 minute clips are representative of an entire industry? Even the most humane killing and butchering processes would be shocking and too graphic for most people if they were presented in a video format because they are completely removed from the food chain.

Tens of millions of animals are slaughtered each year, there are bound to be some people in some places who are not fit for the job and some animals will suffer. Apparently 25% of animals are slaughtered in accordance with religious practices and there appears to be little or no exact information as to how exactly that is done.

Halal, Kosher, whatever there should be no place for superstition and ancient taboos when it comes to ensuring the best practices for slaughtering animals as humanely as is practically possible.

Just watched about two minutes of the second video, thanks. Looked like a fairly quick and effective way of killing lots of sheep to me. Has put me off kebabs for a little while though, so maybe job done?

Just watched about two minutes of the second video, thanks. Looked like a fairly quick and effective way of killing lots of sheep to me. Has put me off kebabs for a little while though, so maybe job done?

One vote for religious 'no-stun' slaughter in an industrial environment is not my intention, certainly not my job. My intention was to post two videos hopefully showing this 'two horse race' nonsense for what it is. Maybe watch the whole thing before commenting?

Ah, racist defence number two. Coming in just behind "I'm not racist because I have a Muslim friend..."

Sorry, but you're talking shite. Stop conflating race with religion. It serves no purpose other than to divert attention from the real issues here, which is (to my mind at least): Are some traditional practices of certain religions compatible with a liberal democracy?

Are some traditional practices of certain religions compatible with a liberal democracy?

Yes, absolutely.

Sorry, but you're talking shite. Stop conflating race with religion. It serves no purpose other than to divert attention from the real issue

...which apparently includes you hiding behind a tired trope to kid yourself that you're not pigeon-holing a minority community in order to make yourself feel superior.

Unless you're a strict vegan, complaining about one method of how animals are killed for food seems more than a little hypocritical.

which apparently includes you hiding behind a tired trope to kid yourself that you're not pigeon-holing a minority community in order to make yourself feel superior.

See you're doing it again. You make assumptions and hide behind 'a tired trope' to stifle a debate. And how did superior get into this?

Do you think that all practises (and beliefs) of some religions are compatible with a liberal democracy?

Unless you're a strict vegan, complaining about one method of how animals are killed for food seems more than a little hypocritical

So I can't be a carnivore and have my meat slaughtered in the most humane way possible?

You do realise Islam is a religion? Nothing to do with race.

Well, it is a bit. That's kind of why people of certain cultures and certain races and certain regions tend to be of certain religions

Do you think that all practises (and beliefs) of some religions are compatible with a liberal democracy?

So I can't be a carnivore and have my meat slaughtered in the most humane way possible?

You can, but you are concentrating on a tiny factor of the overall process. Do you ensure that every bit of meat you eat has been bred in the most humane way possible?

No you don't, but those months/years of the animals life make the last 10 minutes pretty insignificant.

Yes, absolutely

How tragic.

So I can't be a carnivore and have my meat slaughtered in the most humane way possible?

That's the point though. Many on the thread have questioned as to why one way is more humane than the other with the ultimate answer being there's not a particularly humane way so it seems daft to get over excited about halal (or kosher, which seems to fall by the wayside in this conversation. I wonder why?) if you intend as I do to keep eating meat.

So I can't be a carnivore and have my meat slaughtered in the most humane way possible?

On the assumption that you can't come up with a way of killing you or any other Homo sapiens (we are after all just animals) in a way that you wouldn't mind, even if it occurred at a time not of your choosing, no.

There's no such thing as humane slaughter, especially from the animal's perspective

zokes -

There's no such thing as humane slaughter, especially from the animal's perspective

Yes but there are such things as more humane slaughter and less humane slaughter and we should strive for the former and try to eliminate the latter. Taboos and superstitions shouldn't be part of the discussion.

The .gov [url= https://www.gov.uk/guidance/halal-and-kosher-slaughter ]guidlines[/url] around Halal and Kosher slaughter seem oddly contradictory with best practices regarding humane slaughter and it should be noted that in instances where the halal or kosher slaughter goes wrong they are instructed to defer to the slaughterhouse's guidelines and implement non kosher and non halal practices to put the animal out of its misery.

Yes but there are such things as more humane slaughter and less humane slaughter and we should strive for the former and try to eliminate the latter. Taboos and superstitions shouldn't be part of the discussion.

orangespyderman - Member

Quite right. Which is exactly why I wonderered (it was referred to as whataboutery at the time) why on earth the petition mentions religious slaughter specifically and not just campaigning for improvement (obligatory stunning with no exemption, tighter controls, better food labelling to enable choice etc).

Presumably because outwith of religious slaughter those guidelines are supposed to be adhered to.

Yes but there are such things as more humane slaughter and less humane slaughter and we should strive for the former and try to eliminate the latter.

You'd be down with the costs of doing it on farm from a distance with a clean shot from a rifle then?

Presumably because outwith of religious slaughter those guidelines are supposed to be adhered to.

There is also a non-negligible risk, in my opinion that banning religious slaughter will drive it underground and make it even harder to regulate effectively, and again if welfare is a concern that would be a big step backwards, surely.

zokes - Still not a customer

You'd be down with the costs of doing it on farm from a distance with a clean shot from a rifle then?

I would. But then I'm surrounded by farms and have several close relatives who are sheep and cattle farmers, my dad worked 20 years as a butcher and I could supplement my family's meat requirements by fishing and hunting.

But that all kind of ignores the fact that there are millions of animals raised for slaughter as part of a multi billion pound industry global industry. Best and perfect aren't the same and it's a pretty reductive argument to dismiss everything unless it is absolutely perfect.

There is also a non-negligible risk, in my opinion that banning religious slaughter will drive it underground and make it even harder to regulate effectively, and again if welfare is a concern that would be a big step backwards, surely.

Or conversely, religious people when confronted with the dilemma of eating non religious meat or not eating meat decide to eat meat and take a small step towards living a more rational secular life.

Yes, absolutely

Why so ?
There are lots of religions out there, some of them pretty benign

what if people voted for a religious government? Would that be democratic?

[i]some of them pretty benign[/i]

go on then, give an example.

Q:Whats a vegan's favourite meat substitute?

A: The high horse.

At least 10 pages...

...said post on page 1, not quite there yet chaps...

some of them pretty benign

go on then, give an example.

erm.. Confucianism

or... Unitarianism

or erm..Tenrikyo

go on then, give an example

the prince philip movement

bonkers, but fairly benign

[i]prince philip movement[/i]

sounds like shit 😉

ba-dum tsch!