I was looking at that Trek eBike article when I had a bit of deja vu,
I'm old enough to remember early mopeds which were basically a tiny engine bolted on to a standard bike frame.
It didn't take long before the limitations of that became obvious. A human propelled bike averages slower speeds, so gradually more robust parts were introduced for mopeds such as stouter wheels, better brakes, suspension, etc. The result became significantly heavier, but that didn't matter because there was sufficient power.
Then about some time in the mid 50s purpose built mopeds became generally available with full suspension (eg NSU Quickly) and the direct connection to the bicycle disappeared. This was followed by the introduction of the Honda Cub which basically killed off the demand for pure mopeds.
I can't help thinking that Trek is at the beefed-up bicycle stage of such an evolution. Next will be the disappearance of the transmission with improved wide range motors.
I'm not a downhiller, but I can see how an eBike would open up much more territory to the DH mob. With no dependency for uplifts and not having to push a heavy bike uphill, we're going to be seeing them up more hills than before.
One day a non assisted bike is going to make no sense for DH, and with it being a specialised offroad vehicle intended for special locations, neither will the power limitations.
Is this the beginning the evolution of the downhill electric motorbike?
Purists will hate it, but it makes so much sense that it will take off IMO.
The only thing that will hold them back will be legislation - the modern equivalent of requiring a man to walk with a red flag in front of them. 🙂
Is it a good thing? Probably not for the retro minded mob, but if it brings more people out on bikes, then there's got to be some benefit.
There are already e-mopeds and e-dirt bikes out there
https://eriderbikes.com/electric-motorbikes/
Cant wait till a gearbox is built into the e-mtb's motor but the bike still has to pedaled to give assist
Legislation is what differentiates a pedal assist e-mtb from a e-moped or non pedal assist e-mtb's
So for pedal assist e-bikes they have to have no throttle, max speed of 15.5mph, max motor output of 250w
Cant see downhill bikes becoming fully electric, they will still need pedal assist purely because of where they are being used, plus once you lose the assist part insurance, license, tax etc... is needed and then its basically a moped/motorbike
Love my e-mtb, great on downhill days or just riding the local trails
Been an mtb'er and a roadie for 20+ years and have done my fair share of suffering on climbs etc...
These days lack of time due to work and family means less riding but the e-mtb allows me to have as much fun as possible in that short time (riding is about fun for me not fitness)
There are already e-mopeds and e-dirt bikes out there
Yep, they don't need to evolve into electric mopeds as they already exist. The reference to an NSU quickly took me back to my child hood. My dad bought me one when I was 13 and I used to charge around the fields on it.
For some reason never actually got a motorbike when I was older though but I would be interested in an electric motorbike if I ever let my mid life crisis get a hold.
As others say, electric motorbikes have been with us for some time, so no divergent evolution on the horizon if both already exist. If anything the pedelec already diverged from the electric bike, not the other way around.
Future public arguments regarding E-MX/E-XC will be about access. Arguments among STWers will be about class/classification and 'correct' clothing 😉
'The bicycle' is looking more and more like what is, a relic of the Victorian era. Walking (ambulation) is already becoming a niche sport, so it's only sensible that bicycles too, like human feet, go the way of the dodo. Will this be good for us? Well, that depends upon who 'us' is.
^ * Edit: Not 'sensible' - 'inevitable'
One day a non assisted bike is going to make no sense for DH
This is untrue as a ebike will be heavier, which will still be worse for DH than a proper bike.
Have you tried an e-bike for downhill use only?
Have rode my local downhill spot along with Windhill on my normal bike and my e-bike
E-bike handles just as well as the normal bike even with the extra weight
Even beat a good number of my Pb's on Strava
I was skeptical that an e-bike could handle/ride as good as a normal bike but they do, so much so that my normal bike has just been sold
Off to Bike Park Wales on the e-bike this weekend so will see how it compares there to my old normal bike
Walking (ambulation) is already becoming a niche sport
'Walking is the most popular exercise in England with younger people also opting for High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT), according to figures released by Sport England.'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/get-inspired/43501255
I think that we could be on a cusp of a very good thing with e-bikes and related stuffs, but are currently being held back by current legislation. The past couple of years whilst on holiday in France there have been a number of adults on electric kick scooters which seem like a brilliant method for many people to commute to-fro work on each day. The Scooters go at jogging pace and on the pavement - not fast but realistically the same pace as most buses. At either end they get folded up and would presumably go under your desk @ work or in your coat closet at home. The benefits as I see it is very cheap personal transport, effortless integration with trains / trams / busses for longer journeys, easy storage and removing risk of theft.
Currently these would be illegal in the UK or have to be classified as motorcycles with licence, MOT, test, insurance, be aged 16+ and be ran on the road.
I'd love to see more of these on the UK streets with the correspondingly lower number of cars on the road.
This is untrue as a ebike will be heavier, which will still be worse for DH than a proper bike
oh I dunno that bleedin levo kinevo thing is what I'd imagine driving a tank over a car to be like..... It was an absolute riot, if anything its got so much potential to be fun every ride its rude not to
For uplift riding sure it makes sense, but for performance / competition DH? Doubt it - what would it offer? Do people even timetrial motorbikes downhill? I mean I'm sure they do as there's a niche for everything, but it's not a big part of off-road motorcycling AFAIK.
Do people even timetrial motorbikes downhill?
Oddly a current frame project is electric trials bikes they seem to be making inroads to that, but again a niche within a niche within a niche.
max motor output of 250w
continuous 250w. If it's peak motor output, just about every ebike out there is currently illegal.
max speed of 15.5mph
17mph ( inc the 10% variance! 😆 )
Personally what is happening now, is they are focused on the mtb crowd as they make more sense and it's the biggest growth market and they are willing to pat the premium prices, the road bike sector is beginning to grow though.
There is also the speed pedalec sector that is to come (up to 45kph), but legislation isn't there with that at the moment, I've read that there's varying attitudes to how it should work coming from germany and belgium where they are beginning to take off i think.
basically, to answer the question, no, I think they'll diverge in to a whole range of diverse markets over the next 5 to 10 years. They'll eventually take over sales of non powered bikes.
The future is essentially electric for transport.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">Garry_Lager
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">For uplift riding sure it makes sense, but for performance / competition DH? Doubt it – what would it offer? Do people even timetrial motorbikes downhill? I mean I’m sure they do as there’s a niche for everything, but it’s not a big part of off-road motorcycling AFAIK.
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Well, yes competition will still be on 'normal' bikes.
But for for the other 360 days of the year when you're just doing laps of Wharncliffe* Woods being able to get 10 runs in down the hill after work would be different to only managing 3. If all you ever ride is uplifted spots it's a different matter, but not everyone lives within a short distance of Innerleithen, BPW etc. There's a Specialized status s/h in a local shop window for a bargain price (26 really is dead), one of those bolt on BB mounted kits would make that an absolute killer bike for just going out and getting some runs in.
I don't like the concept of e-trail-bikes to allow the lazy** to go mountainbiking, it's just not cricket***.
*other local spots are available, bikes may be ridden up as well as down, past performance is no guarantee you're going to make that landing better bail out now.
**the old and infirm being an exception
***specifically it is cricket, but the other team has brought one of those 100mph bowling machines as their usual bowler had a few shandies last night and isn't feeling it today.
No. next question.
In China e-motorbike sector is huge. In Europe, because of insurance/licence regulations e-bikes rule. That seems desirable to me. Aim should be for E-motorbikes to replace fossil fuel motorbikes very quickly - there's no reason not to regulate conventional motorbikes and mopeds out of cities but with this Government having bowed to pressure from the motor industry and dropped the commitment to banning fossil fuel cars by 2041 it probably wont happen.
In China e-motorbike sector is huge. In Europe, because of insurance/licence regulations e-bikes rule. That seems desirable to me. Aim should be for E-motorbikes to replace fossil fuel motorbikes very quickly – there’s no reason not to regulate conventional motorbikes and mopeds out of cities but with this Government having bowed to pressure from the motor industry and dropped the commitment to banning fossil fuel cars by 2041 it probably wont happen.
I agree in principal that an e-motorbike is preferable to just about any other motorised transport, but banning 'motorbikes' isn't the solution. a 250cc motorbike doing 100mpg, not being diesel, and not adding to congestion, is far better than a car. And if you ban bikes >250cc from cities you would have to make that the line and ban all cars which isn't going to happen any time soon.
The future is essentially electric for transport.
This I think, but there's a few hurdles to overcome, like charging infrastructure and refining the legislation.
For now I do see people trying to find alternatives to cars, several people at work have bought cheap 125s to cut their commuting cost and carbon footprint...
Personally I would love to have an e-Motorcycle/scooter as a quicker than a bicycle commuting option as my commute has gotten shorter and that would avoid using an IC engined car for short range transport.
Basically I'd rather keep my bicycles as actual bicycles, and just have electric motorised road transport.
Switzerland already have e-bikes that are effectively mopeds. I thought there were a lot of seriously quick cyclists around when I was in Basel until I noticed that they weren't pedalling and had number plates on the back. Looked mostly like normal e-bikes, which they also had. Presumably the normal kind are cheaper to own and run.
cookea
...Basically I’d rather keep my bicycles as actual bicycles, and just have electric motorised road transport.
Me too, but it isn't people like you and me who are going to drive this forward. We're the dinosaurs (well I am 🙂 ).
The pressure will rise to change the legislation as these things become more common. I think we have to accept the inevitable.
The pressure will rise to change the legislation as these things become more common. I think we have to accept the inevitable.
Doubt it, mopeds are limited to 30mph and aren't allowed on bridleways or cycle paths (despite plenty of them being styled to look like dirt bikes). I can't really see the case for making electric ones different.
Kids on mini motorbikes, segways, hoverboards, etc. All still illegal despite popularity.
The pressure will rise to change the legislation as these things become more common. I think we have to accept the inevitable.
Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a ****ing big television, Choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players, and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol and dental insurance. Choose fixed-interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisure wear and matching luggage. Choose a three piece suite on hire purchase in a range of ****ing fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the **** you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing ****ing junk food into your mouth. Choose an e-Bloody mountain bike.
🙂 🙂
Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a * big television, Choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players, and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol and dental insurance. Choose fixed-interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisure wear and matching luggage. Choose a three piece suite on hire purchase in a range of * fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the * you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing * junk food into your mouth. Choose an e-Bloody mountain bike.
Or simply spout a load of tosh on internet forums 😉
The pressure will rise to change the legislation as these things become more common. I think we have to accept the inevitable.
It'll come even quicker the first time an irresponsible rider takes out and seriously injures or kills a pedestrian with one in a town centre on a cycle or footpath. I think they're a great innovation but I'm seeing far too many being ridden along cycleways and footpaths at frankly ridiculous speeds with minimal peddling input I can only assume they're hacked. Mr Motorcross who I see each morning comes to mind, full-on MX kit, full face and goggles haring along a dual-use path in excess of 30mph while hardly peddling at all. It's not the E-bikes fault but dicks will be dicks and ruin it for all.
...but if it brings more people out on bikes, then there’s got to be some benefit...
But what you are describing is not more people out on bikes, it's more people out on electric motorbikes.
‘The bicycle’ is looking more and more like what is, a relic of the Victorian era.
Quiet, efficient, human powered transport that is good for your physical and mental health, and makes cities better places to live? That sounds like the future to me.
Normally I nod at other riders.
I saw my first offroad ebiker on Wednesday and I didn't nod.
Didn't know that I felt like that.
Your subconscious is a funny thing.
I'd have one of these in a heartbeat http://www.bikeexif.com/honda-cub-electric-motorcycle
Buy a C90 strip the engine out, rebuild rear wheel with a hub motor and stick batteries under the seat - if ever I find a cub that isn't stupidly overpriced I can see me doing something like this.
thisisnotaspoon
Doubt it, mopeds are limited to 30mph and aren’t allowed on bridleways or cycle paths (despite plenty of them being styled to look like dirt bikes). I can’t really see the case for making electric ones different.
It won't be the likes of you and me pushing for legislation change though. It will be the millions of owners of those bikes.
Personally I think they should be on the road with general traffic rather than on paths for self propelled humans.
Just to remind folk. Electricity doesn't just magically appear, it comes mainly from burning fossil fuels. For transport, electric powered vehicles are a step towards reducing emissions. For recreation they are creating extra demand for fossil fuels.
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">It won’t be the likes of you and me pushing for legislation change though. It will be the millions of owners of those bikes.
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I'm not convinced.
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Either that millions of currently illegal e-bikes will be sold, or that their owners will be bothered enough to push for access to cycle infrastructure, let's be honest riding on a cycle path is a PITA at 20mph on a road bike, enough to make you just ride on the road instead, it's going to be even less fun without the actual exercising bit.
If I wanted a 30mph e-bike I'd just pay my £90 for a CBT and do it legally in the current system, same way I'd get a 125cc motorbike (which TBH is probably pretty close in the running costs department).
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<div class="bbp-reply-author">rollindoughnut
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">Just to remind folk. Electricity doesn’t just magically appear, it comes mainly from burning fossil fuels. For transport, electric powered vehicles are a step towards reducing emissions. For recreation they are creating extra demand for fossil fuels.
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You might have to check your facts on that one, even in the UK with access to the north sea I think we've dipped under 50% fossil fuels, it's no longer 'most' and is only going to drop as there seems to be a lack of westminster willpower to go with CCS coal fired stations and gas is only going to get more expensive and less secure as the north sea dwindles.
Just checked Wikipedia. 56% fossil fuels in 2016. That is really good news to me, I presumed it was way higher.
Changes tack: How about the environmental damage in the production and disposal of Lithium batteries?
I WILL find an actual reason to justify my irrational (or maybe not?) hatred of these infernal machines!
Just checked Wikipedia. 56% fossil fuels in 2016. That is really good news to me, I presumed it was way higher.
Oddly 2016 was the year I was looking at and it was 42% gas 9% coal (51%) on the source I found and made an assumption that 1% drop was likely as a lot of coal stations were out for repair last year.
Changes tack: How about the environmental damage in the production and disposal of Lithium batteries?
Probably pretty bad, but then you can make just about anything an environmental whipping boy, have you seen how much energy goes into making house bricks! We should definitely all live in wattle and daub houses, but no lime wash, that's bad too.
I WILL find an actual reason to justify my irrational (or maybe not?) hatred of these infernal machines!
I don't hate them, for some situations or individuals they're great, it's the weekend warriors on electric trail bikes that piss me off. It's like going sailing somewhere nice, and getting constantly buzzed by a **** on a jetski. He (it's always a he) isn't doing me any quantifiable harm, but his choice of 'sport' is just a bit lazy and feels like cheating. Yes you can do 20kts, but so can can any idiot. So even what should be minor irritations (their f****** hairdryer two-stroke engines or accidentally giving way to an e-bike) become magnified.
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Just to remind folk. Electricity doesn’t just magically appear, it comes mainly from burning fossil fuels. For transport, electric powered vehicles are a step towards reducing emissions. For recreation they are creating extra demand for fossil fuels
Im all about a nuclear and renewable combo! It's the governments rrsponsibility to match my view. So not my problem, my position is clear, do away with fossil fuels tomorrow.
Interesting point the cost of ebikes though, regardingpower consumption of them. 1KW of electricity costs about 12p. A starndard ebike is .5KW. so charging every day for 1 year would cost. 182.5kw of electriciaty. So about £21.90. so with realistic usage proabably costs about tenner to charge an ebike per year. Fair bit less than any other form of transport, bar walking and cycling. Interesting viewpoint though.
Or simply spout a load of tosh on internet forums
Oh, you want a serious, considered answer. Well, because I'm basically unreasonable and not given to compromise, I feel that eBikes erode the very essence of cycling. There is a place for them, the missus' 70-something mum who has used pushbikes as transport for her entire life has upgraded to an eBike, because she is old and not as strong as she used to be and it keeps her mobile while still not being a car.
And a mate of mine has a heart condition that could kill him instantly if he pushes too hard, but can potentially use an eBike to ride with his mates, but without over-exerting himself. That seems a reasonable use for an eBike.
None of which is strictly relevant to the OP's question, which has been answered comprehensively by those who've pointed out that e-mopeds and motorcycles already exist.
But personally, I think eBikes might as well already be eMopeds for all the difference it makes. I'm not saying everyone should agree with me, but that's how I feel at a gut level. Burn the bastard things 😉
Which kind of brings me back to the Trainspotting thing; eBikes exist because the nature of the bike industry is to constantly produce more things you can buy so they can make money from you. But for me, they cross a line that other bikes don't YMMV and I have problem with that. I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone else, but that's how I feel.
ps; i bloody love those giant smileys. All the forum upgrade turmoil was worth it just for that...
Have you tried an e-bike for downhill use only?
Nope, I bet it is fun as any bike like thing is fun but it will be heavier and therefore less manoeuvreable so not not as good.
Thisisnotaspoon and BadlyWiredDog, thank you for so eloquently putting into words that gut feeling about ebikes that nags away at me despite all the arguments in their favour.
The jet ski analogy reminded me of a time when I used to windsurf. Trying to come ashore a jet ski was getting pounded in the shore break. We may have spent a while watching the machine getting crunched into the pebbles (the guy was safe on the shore), with plenty of oooos and ahhhs and “that’ll be expensive” remarks, before ambling down to help pull it out. Fellow windsurfer in the same situation would have had guys running down the beach to whip them out of trouble.
Fond memories.
I think the jet ski analogy is very good.
The people who use them generally aren't the people who kayak, sail or windsurf. It's a whole different market.
Keen cyclists felt pretty much the same way about mopeds in their early days as many of us do about eBikes. Generally while conceding they'd be ok for their mother, wife, commuting etc etc.
The point is it isn't going to be we cyclists who drive the eBike* market, but a whole new group of consumers. We're not going to get the option of liking it.
*eBike as in crossover light motorbike rather than pedelec.
Thisisnotaspoon and BadlyWiredDog, thank you for so eloquently putting into words that gut feeling about ebikes that nags away at me despite all the arguments in their favour.
The jet ski analogy reminded me of a time when I used to windsurf. Trying to come ashore a jet ski was getting pounded in the shore break. We may have spent a while watching the machine getting crunched into the pebbles (the guy was safe on the shore), with plenty of oooos and ahhhs and “that’ll be expensive” remarks, before ambling down to help pull it out. Fellow windsurfer in the same situation would have had guys running down the beach to whip them out of trouble.
Fond memories.
So whats the moral of that story, windsurfers are bawbags?
I think the jet ski analogy is very good.
The people who use them generally aren’t the people who kayak, sail or windsurf. It’s a whole different market.
Not sure about that, most people on e-mtb seem to be keen cyclists who are getting older or have other reasons they cannot cycle as long/far as they used to. Though I am sure the mythical Audi owning dentists will be along to dump £5k+ on an ebike but they will only be riding them around the Walking Bottom Car Park at Peaslake so that is OK.
@seosamh77. No. The moral is that Badlywiredog, Spoony and Dougnut probably are.
Even emtb ryders themselves make up bizarre pre-conceptions of what they think an emtb owner must be. Seems pretty strange typing your prejudices online but even more so when it's based puely on a type of bicycle you've never even tried.
I can think of a lot of things I haven't tried, might enjoy but find morally repugnant. Does that mean I can't have a view on them? Where I ride (techy trails in the Tweed valley and big Scottish hills) I've yet to meet anyone with a positive view of e-bikes, yet on Singletrack there seems to be a consensus that e-bikes are the bees knees and that no one is allowed to express a view to the contrary. I guess that's because most anti e-bike feeling does centre on a gut feeling that using one is cheating; I can see why this doesn't go do well with the acolytes though however. Really there needs to be a subset forum for the mobility scooter crowd so they can carry on crowing about them and leave the rest of the forum to proper mountain bikers.*
*Sorry to be such a wind up merchant but the e-bike luvvy-dovey thing has got out of control on here with at least two posts a day where only the fan club are allowed a say!
"morally repugnant".
Ha ha... *waves to chickenman way up on his horse* Oooohh... I do like you 😀
Coincidentally I've been regularly riding those exact trails where you say you are yet to find anyone with a positive view of Ebikes since the early 90s, rigid forks, canti brakes an' all. Out of interest do you actually speak to strangers you meet while riding and discuss Ebikes with them? I do speak to pretty much every rider I meet while riding (I'm a country mouse, I find townies who don't acnowledge others while out in the country strange so will offer the first greeting even if they wouldn't have) In the past couple of months I've ridden a little over 500miles of those trails on an Emtb so guess what a lot of the conversations include? So far I am yet to find anyone quite so ridiculous as yourself. Out of the hundreds of riders I've spoken to only ONE was upset about me being on an Ebike. He was on an incredibly expensive looking steel hardtail 400m from my house and got all excited when he saw what he thought was a Di2 controller on my bars and then when I explained what it actually was he hurried off in disgust. He was a pretty funny guy too!
I ride "morrally sound" unassisted bikes just as much if not more than my Ebike. infact I'm not long home from a day riding one of them on a thoroughly imorral uplift day in your beloved Tweed Valley. I'm not an Ebike evangalist. I'm just a realist. Let me share one of my morals that might serve you well in future... Live and let live.
I'll come say hello and give you a shot of my Emtb if I see you parked up sometime. What colour is your T5?
