A out of control dog knocked me off my bike!
The cyclist wasn't concentrating and wasn't in control!
I think it's already been said, but take the out of control dog out of the equation and what happens? Nothing. Nothing at all. The dog is the problem here, not vulnerable pedestrians, not even cyclists doing wheelies. If the dog owner had behaved with any consideration for other people then this thread wouldn't be happening.
As for your second point, it really pisses me off that I need to be concentrating on my safety when I'm on a road because drivers can't be trusted but equally when I get to a place where I should be safe to lose a little concentration then it's somehow my fault if I was to get knocked off. The dog owner gets free rein everywhere - to drive like a tit and then to behave like a tit when out of the car.
The question is who is at fault
The person who has so little control over an animal in a publicly shared path and so little respect for other users that it manages to upend some innocent 3rd party otherwise going about their day.
I thought this was obvious
The question is who is at fault
The person who has so little control over an animal that it manages to upend some innocent 3rd party otherwise going about their day.
I thought this was obvious
I do actually agree with you morally. I am not arguing that what i am arguing is that if the two of them tried to fight it oit legally i don't think that would be the answer.
I also don't disagree that cyclists and all other users of a shared path should feel safe. I am saying there os a time and a place where "should" should really become "must".
But a blanket set of rules just doesn't do much good. Why shouldn't a cyclist timetrial a section which is clearly safe? Why shouldn't a dog walker let their dog off the lead of they can clearly see its clear of any other users and they are concentrating. Maybe elsewhere shared use paths are awful but round here some of them are wide and open and fenced either side you can literally see things coming for miles.
Most people are just out there trying to be safe and have an enjoyable time. How thats transpires totally depends on the situation.
Blimey that all kicked off a bit 😆
In answer to a few questions above...
The walker was ahead of me walking in the same direction and I was slowing down after I saw him.
So the dog was unbeknownst to me rooting about in the bushes 25ish meters behind him - he wasn't paying it any attention at that point in time.
How fast was I going?
Thanks to the miracle of GPS and Strava I've just looked up my speed prior to the incident.
I was going along the (empty) path at approx 23km/h (14mph), then you can see me slow to 15/16km/h (10mph) when I saw the walker - I was drinking when I saw him, but had my left hand covering the rear brake so I slowed down. I was starting to put the bottle in the bottle cage and was going to ring my bell. Then my speed suddenly drops to 0km/h...guess why 😉
I nearly got knocked off the other day be a deer stampeding out of the hedgerow and across the road just in front of me. Not only was it not on a lead but the owner was nowhere in sight...
Ooo oo another one. Riding into the club ride 'tuther morning on a single track road. One mini doggo + lead (and human) coming towards me, another big walloper + lead and operator going the other way. So what, 8' apart? Big doggo thinks little one looks like a tasty snack and energetically makes for it. Both owners end up rolling around screaming and shouting in the road whilst big dog tries to devour little dog. Luckily I have my Scouts dog fighting badge so was able to step in and drag big dog away before little dog was completely consumed. Not sure who was at fault but probably the cyclist (by default)...
No what is being talked about is who is at fault in one specific case.
And the answer is both.
The dog wasn't under control and neither was the cyclist.
I take umbrage at that - I was in control, slowing down and about to put my bottle away. I was also preparing to ring my bell (once I'd put my bottle away). If I hadn't been knocked off I'd probably have passed him at about 10-12km/h.
No what is being talked about is who is at fault in one specific case.
And the answer is both.
The dog wasn't under control and neither was the cyclist.
I take umbrage at that - I was in control, slowing down and about to put my bottle away. I was also preparing to ring my bell (once I'd put my bottle away). If I hadn't been knocked off I'd probably have passed him at about 10-12km/h.
You MUST accept, it's ALWAYS the cyclist fault. You were probably wearing Lycra and at least know someone who's jumped a red light at some point. Cut and indeed, dried. 👍
No what is being talked about is who is at fault in one specific case.
And the answer is both.
The dog wasn't under control and neither was the cyclist.
I take umbrage at that - I was in control, slowing down and about to put my bottle away. I was also preparing to ring my bell (once I'd put my bottle away). If I hadn't been knocked off I'd probably have passed him at about 10-12km/h.
Somewhere up there i wrote a long post that did say i wasn't suggesting you were acting unsafely just without other info (like GPS) it could be argued.
I also said that crashing is horrible and that you (and the dog) are relatively unscathed.
Unfortunately i lost that post and got a bit frustrated and it didn't seem to make the second abridged attempt in favour of winning the internet. Sorry of that came across as an accusation.
I personally would (and have) shrugged off that level of damage as just one of those things, in my case it was technically still on the leed... extendable one i had no chance of seeing. But the owner was more shaken than i was so i felt pretty sorry for her (and the dog).
Why shouldn't a dog walker let their dog off the lead of they can clearly see its clear of any other users and they are concentrating
because fundamentally, control of the dog is the owners responsibility, and to do otherwise is abdicating that responsibility to the people who're you're sharing the path with. The cyclist's responsibility is not to travel so fast they can't stop immediately should they need to. Both can use discretion given the weight of traffic on the shared path (time of day, popularity of the path etc).
- removed, it's all been said already -
Why shouldn't a dog walker let their dog off the lead of they can clearly see its clear of any other users and they are concentrating
because fundamentally, control of the dog is the owners responsibility, and to do otherwise is abdicating that responsibility to the people who're you're sharing the path with. The cyclist's responsibility is not to travel so fast they can't stop immediately should they need to. Both can use discretion given the weight of traffic on the shared path (time of day, popularity of the path etc).
So you agree that discretion and a dose of common sense is or is not a generally good approach to a shared use path?
Can you explain how that differs to what i am saying?
Isn't this what insurance is for? Shit happens, it's not always avoidable and there isn't always "someone" obviously "at fault" (ie the deer incident mentioned above).
Pet insurance, cyclist insurance, and general liability insurance as part of your home insurance could possibly be used to recover some of the financial loss for either party. But unless you've got cooperative witnesses, you're not gonna succeed. So, I'm not sure why the OP made this post...
Or is this thread just clickbait ?
Or is this thread just clickbait ?
It's give the terminally unhappy types a reason to have a moan whilst their meds aren't working.
Just watch for the spikes in it. They have a bad day and their shit pours out here like tar sticking to everything and leaving a stink.
...and what is it you're here for exactly? A pointless attack on other posters? A general moan about people who are prescribed drugs?
Or is this thread just clickbait ?
It's give the terminally unhappy types a reason to have a moan whilst their meds aren't working.
Just watch for the spikes in it. They have a bad day and their shit pours out here like tar sticking to everything and leaving a stink.
Wow! Lucky you've shown up to get the standard back up to where it should be. Thank you. 😘
Or is this thread just clickbait ?
I didn't intend it as such 😊
Posted partly to have vent about what happened, but also I was interested in where people thought the blame lay.
Luckily I'm fine, just a couple of scrapes (and some ruined 1 ride old gloves), but it could've been a lot worse.
Probably should've guessed it'd turn into handbags 😁
Oh dear. I thought it had been fairly civil up until now.
Or is this thread just clickbait ?
I didn't intend it as such 😊
Posted partly to have vent about what happened, but also I was interested in where people thought the blame lay.
Luckily I'm fine, just a couple of scrapes (and some ruined 1 ride old gloves), but it could've been a lot worse.
Probably should've guessed it'd turn into handbags 😁
Dog skin handbags with reused dog collars for handles.
Or is this thread just clickbait ?
Probably should've guessed it'd turn into handbags 😁
Time for the rather tired 'Are you new here?'... It does have all the hallmarks of classic STW. Particularly as 'we' (cyclists) are usually on the receiving end and we can't even agree how we can make ourselves safer...
Time for the rather tired 'Are you new here?'
😆 Very much no, but it seems I don't learn.
Oh dear. I thought it had been fairly civil up until now.
It had been...
Thanks for the apology earlier. I wasn't that annoyed 😘
Apologies I’ve not read the whole thread.
This is my take. My understanding is that legally cyclists give way to horses. Dog owners are expected to keep dogs way horses and cyclists. That’s all ok on paper
My concern is that for legal and moral reasons children have every right not to be hit by a cyclist on a shared use path. So if you are cycling past some one or a group then you really need to slow down in case there are children in the group. If a dog can appear from a bush into your path so can a child
Or is this thread just clickbait ?
It's give the terminally unhappy types a reason to have a moan whilst their meds aren't working.
Just watch for the spikes in it. They have a bad day and their shit pours out here like tar sticking to everything and leaving a stink.
Wow! Lucky you've shown up to get the standard back up to where it should be. Thank you. 😘
This is STW, there are no standards. But you're more than welcome, it's a burden to be that guy but praise makes it easier to shoulder. 🙏🏻
...and what is it you're here for exactly? A pointless attack on other posters? A general moan about people who are prescribed drugs?
Bit of both of obviously. It was hardly subtle, but I guess you're having a blunt day. I'm sure you'll perk up soon princess. 🤞🏻
An awful lot of cyclists seem to have forgotten that 'shared use' doesn't mean 'a cycle path where walkers and runners are also allowed on sufferance, provided they get out of your way'.
Shit. I must have misread the OP. I thought he said he hit a dog..... Didn't realise he hit a person.
...... ........ *****
........... ....
Can you explain how that differs to what i am saying?
I don't think your dog should be off the lead on a shared path if you're expecting to meet other users. I think that's common sense
Can you explain how that differs to what i am saying?
I don't think your dog should be off the lead on a shared path if you're expecting to meet other users. I think that's common sense
Coming here with ya sensible a di blaady da views. Tsssk, where will end...? 🙃
Didn't 13thfloormonk (?) get clobbered by an out of control dog a couple of years ago?
IIRC he got some compensation of some description from the loon who let the dog off the leash.
Because the place for a dog off the lead is somewhere it's unlikely to meet any-one. If you want to let it roam about, then go somewhere where you can do that - either choose your time of day or location accordingly. Shared paths are rarely to never that. That's where we differ. TBF, where I live in South Manchester, dog control is shockingly bad, owners appear to have had a general meeting and agreed to outsource dog control to everyone else whether they like it or not. it's probs coloured my view.
I don't think dog owners who live in towns and cities should go for a walk with their dog with the expectations that at some point they're going to let it off. I think they should go for a walk with the expectation its' going to spend 100% of the time on a lead. Unless you've gone to the middle of nowhere and you can be reasonably confident the only other person you're going to meet is a knackered old MTBr - who is probs lost.
It's a fair point, and I've never been able to understand why folks choose to let their dogs off leads on shared-use paths.
Go to a park; go to a field; let it run around, do it's dirty sinful business, etc, etc. Just keep it on a lead on the way.
It's an absolute rule #1 scenario in my view. As is riding carefully on a shared-use path, as I'm sure the OP was, going by their description of the events, and I'm sure we all do, because it's the right thing to do.
Nothing has changed my view that the dog owner was at fault for their uncontrolled animal. It's academic, but fascinating on a cycling forum that behaviour endangering other people (and cyclists in particular) is often condoned because, well, doggos.
I once saw a runner go arse over tit after running into a stationary golden retriever .
Dog owners turn into complete 'assholes' if you question them, even when the dog bites you.
One woman threatened to get her husband to do me over, when all I asked was for her to control the dog as it went for me. Turns out the dog wasn't her's but belonged to the person next to her. How do I know, she saw me again a week later and stopped me and I got a grovelling apology - she was literally shaking. I said OK. This was in a recreation park - dog warden just said get a "dog spray".
Dog owner's liability.
why folks choose to let their dogs off leads on shared-use paths.
Go to a park;
I'd prefer if they didn't shit all over parks, tbh. Too many years of scraping it off my kids shoes and clothes.
I once saw a runner go arse over tit after running into a stationary golden retriever .
Didn't happen. Golden retrievers don't stay still!
My retrievers would do anything to cause maximum embarrassment to me, whether that meant deliberately tripping a runner, stopping in front of a busy bus stop to take a huge dump or eating a fisherman's bait. Because they were complete idiots they tended to be on leads until there was no-one around, in which case they'd just trip me up or deliberately walk into a lamppost.
Kinda academic if you have no idea who he is though...
If only pedestrians had to wear number plates.
I think the element missing in all these conversations is that the dog landscape for people who don't own or have never owned dogs has radically changed in a way that hasn't necessarily impacted long-term dog owners in the same way.
Post lockdown not only has there been a massive increase in ownership, there has been a massive shift in behaviour of those new owners and their dogs. and the biggest impact the rest of us have to encounter is fear-based aggressiveness from barely socialised dogs and it's not a massive exaggeration to says it's at epidemic levels. If i use a shared path nowadays I generally expect to have an unpleasant encounter with an owner and their dog, which wasn't true 6 years ago.
I now have to treat all dogs as if they are going to behave badly, and regardless of whether you've walked your fat ole Lab along this path for a decade and half, the best thing that any responsible owner can do now is keep it on a lead until all these lockdown dogs have either been handed to shelters (the on going crisis in animal shelters is another discussion for another day I guess) or have naturally left the national population.
It would be really nice if people would stop sniping and chewing lumps out of each other on this thread. The shame of it is that there are some quite interesting issues/points/takes, but as soon as you say anything in the spirit of calm discussion, someone jumps down your throat telling you EXACTLY HOW IT IS and HOW WRONG YOU ARE, usually in a snide, patronising, vaguely ****tish way.
I'm someone with a foot in both camps, we own a 17-month-old dog, I ride bikes a lot and I walk and run a fair bit too. A lot of cyclists round here ride way too fast on shared-use paths, either because they're idiots or because they don't appreciate that passing a walker at 15kph with little warning or clearance, is actually quite disconcerting and gives them little margin for error if something unexpected happens, like someone changing direction, a child veering sideways, or yes, a dog jumping out.
I can say that surely without people deciding I'm somehow denigrating the OP and suggesting he's at fault - a lawyer would probably note that he was riding one-handed, hadn't signalled his approach etc - but I'm quite prepared to believe that the OP was exercising reasonable care.
As a dog-owner, I'd just say that an awful of dog owners have little or no control over their dogs, wander around looking at their phone - like the guy here - and let their dogs run around off-lead in wholly inappropriate places. Our guy, because we've put a shedload of work into him has a solid recall, a whistle-sit/stop, a turn whistle cue and will down stay at the side of the trail with a hand signal. A friend's dog, a Vizsla, actually auto-recalls to her on the approach of a bike, horse or runner, so it can be done. That doesn't mean I let our guy run loose in inappropriate places, I don't, because I have regard for other trail users, but it does mean that I have a. good level of control over him off-lead. He recalls from sheep too.
Personally I'm careful around dogs to the point that I'll slow to near walking pace and give plenty of warning. I tend to assume that anyone I see on foot may also have a dog. Why? Because the idea of hitting either a dog or another person upsets me and on shared-use trails, them's the breaks, maybe they ought not to be, but in the real world, that's how it is. They're not cycleways, which inconveniently other users wander around on for you to dodge around, you should be taking every bit as much care on them as you do on the road because in this case, you are the faster vehicle capable of causing damage to other, more vulnerable people and animals.
Before someone spits their dummy, I'm not suggesting that the OP was reckless or that the dog walker involved wasn't careless and ultimately responsible, but there is a context to all this. I've never come close to crashing into a dog loose on a trail, probably because I've either been lucky or I ride very cautiously.
Finally, I noticed that the OP never mentions whether the dog was okay - I'm hoping and assuming it was?
you we should be taking every bit as much care on them as you we do on the road because in this case, you we are the faster vehicle capable of causing damage to other, more vulnerable people and animals.
it's a collective responsibility, fundamentally.
True. Don't let your dogs run free on the roads though. Why? Same reasoning applies to shared paths.
Personally I pass dogs slow enough to be able to say hello to them and get eye contact, because I love dogs.
A loose dog jumping into the trail from a hidden position is entirely down to whoever is supposed to have control of that dog... blaming the rider in this situation (or even going off on one about riders in general) just isn't on, in my opinion.
A lot of cyclists round here ride way too fast on shared-use paths, either because they're idiots or because they don't appreciate that passing a walker at 15kph with little warning or clearance, is actually quite disconcerting
Maybe everyone should be aware of others on shared use paths? The pedestrian shouldn't be at all surprised by being passed because...shared use path. Do they shout at runners to slow down to walking pace? How many cyclists need to pass the unwary pedestrian before they realise....shared use path? One every 30 secs? Is it that the average walker has the memory of a goldfish?
😀
Finally, I noticed that the OP never mentions whether the dog was okay - I'm hoping and assuming it was?
Sorry, I didn't mention it because the furry idiot was fine 😆 after knocking me off it was sniffing me and wagging its tail as if to sat 'That was fun, again please.'
