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"I'd be interested to know where this is written, it’d be useful.
the Gov Uk site and every other reference I’ve found states continuous power no higher than 250w?"
The regulations seem to be a total mess. I've had a look into them and as far as I can see the max power test is a fairly insignificant part of EN15194 and the companies self-certify and it's very hard to do a pure motor shaft power test on a bike that only runs when you pedal. There isn't a peak power limit and it looks like you can just state that your bike is 250W continuous without having to prove it because no-one is actually checking.
The few times I've tried to go out on e-bike group rides I've been ripped a new one. My 2021 Levo Turbo has been a fantastic leveller when heading out with younger / fitter riders. But against other e-bikers I'm left standing. Up until now I'd assumed it was because I'm fat, unfit and useless on a bike, but after reading this thread....am I the only unchipped rider in the village?
it's that kind of ebike mentality that ****s me off, speaking as biker, e and whatever
Where does the issue people seem to have sit?
- The motor arms race?
- The fact that toolbags also ride MTB's?
- A combination of both?
Genuinely curious. Me personally, my issue is toolbags ride bikes. People, especially toolbags will find a way to annoy other people and show a lack of respect to their environment and impact.
Case in point the trials motorbike riders that came ragging up Doctors Orders at Deepcar yesterday.
am I the only unchipped rider in the village?
they dont need to be chipped bikes, as the OP says, its very hard to measure/test as the definition of the peak output isnt pinned down (OP has clearly done more reading that me). Continuous power output tells you nothing of peak power output, or torque.
the reason these DJI Avinox motors are so popular is they deliver a huge amount of power. People say comparing an avinox to a bosch unit is like comparing a bosch unit to normal cycling. All while staying "within the regs"
People say comparing an avinox to a bosch unit is like comparing a bosch unit to normal cycling.
And even the Bosch motor is capable of delivering its max power for 8 mins in tests apparently before heat management reduces it. So 750Watts plus add in say 150w from the rider and you are at 900 watts for 8 minutes and a cumulative power performance far outstripping what Pogacar (or Pidcock on his XC bike) would be capable of (though admittedly the w/kg won't quite so amazing given the weight of an emtb and a recreational rider in comparison to an emaciated elite rider on a featherlight bike). I'd imagine that would be pretty compelling to ride.
LLandegla again... Got talking to a bloke on a brand new Amflow. Told me how he had removed the 15.5mph limiter because, "With the standard limit I hold XC bikes up on the flat stuff"... FFS 🤬
I hate corner-cutters too. That's in all aspects of life.
Yeah, the XC guys should be limited to 15.5mph too. Tearing around the flats with their skinny legs and energy gels 😠
So, so much bitterness, I'm not sure if all of you are quite well. You might as well scream "You're having fun in a subtle, but different way to me, you're everything wrong with the world!"
I mean, launching into a verbal attack on someone for the crime of passing you on a climb without a "by your leave sir". Why not talk your problems out with a friend or a loved one, rather than taking it out on random members of the public that you share a hobby with.
Isn't one of the things about Amflows that their motor will scale-up to 8x input where many only do 4x or maybe 6x ? Means you could get 800W out of it without breaking sweat whereas pedaling at 200W on a bike that "only" does 4x is decently strenuous
But against other e-bikers I'm left standing. Up until now I'd assumed it was because I'm fat, unfit and useless on a bike, but after reading this thread....am I the only unchipped rider in the village?
Nope, same boat here. SL e-bike with 'only' 60Nm/450w peak/430Wh. Although saying that, I've only ridden my eMTB in a group on a handful of occasions so it's not a common scenario. 95% of my use is solo. They tend to stop, chat and wait so never an issue to catch up 😀
Each to their own with eMTB use. I generally ride natural trails than trailcentres, but restarted visiting Glentress over past few years with the kids. Shortcuts/direct lines existed before the rise of eMTBs, but so did dickheads on ANY sort of bike. I still remember years ago being T-boned on a sharp uphill switchback by some XCer trying to overtake me up the inside - they must've forgotten it wasn't a race 🙄
So, so much bitterness, I'm not sure if all of you are quite well. You might as well scream "You're having fun in a subtle, but different way to me, you're everything wrong with the world!"
I mean, launching into a verbal attack on someone for the crime of passing you on a climb without a "by your leave sir". Why not talk your problems out with a friend or a loved one, rather than taking it out on random members of the public that you share a hobby with.
A lot of confirmation bias too, because they've had one or two bad encounters they assume everyone is the same.
They won't confront the problem in person though, easier to whinge about it on here.
On my ebike ride yesterday, which is typical...
-Said hello or nodded to everyone I passed (including 4 kids on quads/Surrons who were riding around the fireroads).
-Offered to a tube to a guy who had burped his rear tyre and had no means to resolve it (he'd had enough for the day and was happy to push back to his car).
-Waited for a guy on a normal bike to complete a rooty/techy climb so I didn't blast past him (it's wide enough and I could have). He didn't even acknowledge my existence when I said hello at the top, the monster.
-Stopped to let two people pass who were lost walking up a downhill MTB trail, and told them how to get back onto the walkers path to the tower at the summit, after chatting about how lovely a day it was and how nice it was to be out in the woods.
-Stopped for various off the leash dogs and petted one who came over.
-Took no uphill shortcuts or downhill Strava lines.
-Went through any puddles I found as not to widen them.
-Cleared some branches and debris from a little used trail.
-Put in a trail report on TrailForks for a fallen tree on another trail that was too heavy for me to move myself.
-Got overtaken on the way home by two Just Eat riders on DIY ebikes because my bike is limited to 15.5mph.
...but yeah, I'm just a lazy dick and I'm ruining it for everyone🤷♂️
...but yeah, I'm just a lazy dick and I'm ruining it for everyone
You're an absolute disgrace 😀
(sounds like a good, typical day out on the bike for me, minus the dog petting but that's a 'me' thing)
you share a hobby with.
I think there's some indefinite dividing line between the concept of assisted pedalling and the higher output motors now being sold and the more powerful the motor the less of "my hobby" it becomes. You can go back to the very early days of this forum and find folk complaining about moto-crossers ripping up trails because folk see that as a different hobby. This really isn't any different.
"...but yeah, I'm just a lazy dick and I'm ruining it for everyone🤷♂️"
I've had an eMTB since 2018 but I'm still concerned by the recent rise in power levels. The vast majority of my local riding is on unofficial trails and as long as bigger features aren't built in the wrong places then we don't have a problem with the non-riders (walkers, landowners, rangers etc). Will the increasing uphill speed for decreasing effort cause more conflict and result in a crackdown on all MTBing on these trails?
So, so much bitterness, I'm not sure if all of you are quite well. You might as well scream "You're having fun in a subtle, but different way to me, you're everything wrong with the world!"
I mean, launching into a verbal attack on someone for the crime of passing you on a climb without a "by your leave sir". Why not talk your problems out with a friend or a loved one, rather than taking it out on random members of the public that you share a hobby with.
A lot of confirmation bias too, because they've had one or two bad encounters they assume everyone is the same.
They won't confront the problem in person though, easier to whinge about it on here.
On my ebike ride yesterday, which is typical...
-Said hello or nodded to everyone I passed (including 4 kids on quads/Surrons who were riding around the fireroads).
-Offered to a tube to a guy who had burped his rear tyre and had no means to resolve it (he'd had enough for the day and was happy to push back to his car).
-Waited for a guy on a normal bike to complete a rooty/techy climb so I didn't blast past him (it's wide enough and I could have). He didn't even acknowledge my existence when I said hello at the top, the monster.
-Stopped to let two people pass who were lost walking up a downhill MTB trail, and told them how to get back onto the walkers path to the tower at the summit, after chatting about how lovely a day it was and how nice it was to be out in the woods.
-Stopped for various off the leash dogs and petted one who came over.
-Took no uphill shortcuts or downhill Strava lines.
-Went through any puddles I found as not to widen them.
-Cleared some branches and debris from a little used trail.
-Put in a trail report on TrailForks for a fallen tree on another trail that was too heavy for me to move myself.
-Got overtaken on the way home by two Just Eat riders on DIY ebikes because my bike is limited to 15.5mph.
...but yeah, I'm just a lazy dick and I'm ruining it for everyone🤷♂️
Here's what I've noticed over the years.
BITD, trailcentre riders were on the whole endorphined and adrenalined up from earning the tech-y downhill bit by slogging up the climb under their own power and determination. We were united in that achievement of having enough left in the tank not to kill ourselves and were 'on the same page' when it came to biking, keen to share stores of glory with the person on the next table in the cafe whilst eating a huge chunk of carrot cake. think like surfer on wheels from your favourite unrealistic movie
There were carpark heroes, but they tended to be few and were mostly ignored by the uppy downy mountainbikers.
Uplifts and DH venues seemed full of ****s. it was like a big carpark bro gathering of chestbeaters, keen to criticise noobs and intimidate those with less than rad skillz. the image being manly pickups with names like raptor, big ballz or something else, windows down and music loud. that's where the party's at. it was like the worst bits of a MBUK vhs.
overall not a problem, they have their play parks.
then ebikes happened. quickly moving from the 'aid to the unfit or injured' to allowing bleed over of from the **** bro scene into our world or respectful cycling antics-on-a-hill. Many have been swept up into this winch n plummet stylee, changing fashions away from natural feeling trails to motorway compacted berms...
The ****s have invaded our sacred spaces, the further outdoors, once only the realm of the skinny and the hardy (and the offroad cycle tourers), now busy with motorised whining and overused singletrack that once gently hugged the side of a hill like a flowing mint sauce cartoon dream, now a muddy rutted scar on the landscape.....
when will it end...
(*rose tinted glasses, thick duvet blanketting and a lot of tongue in cheek may have been used)
I've had an eMTB since 2018 but I'm still concerned by the recent rise in power levels. The vast majority of my local riding is on unofficial trails and as long as bigger features aren't built in the wrong places then we don't have a problem with the non-riders (walkers, landowners, rangers etc). Will the increasing uphill speed for decreasing effort cause more conflict and result in a crackdown on all MTBing on these trails?
This.
I'm not sure but I suspect for many years there was a 'gentleman's agreement' among motor manufacturers not to take the piss with power output. There never was any limit but the 250W continuous power was always mentioned and I think manufacturers were kind of treating that as a guideline for where the peak power should be.
Then someone released a motor with a couple of extra Nm of torque. Then someone added a couple more to their motor and power started to creep up and up and everyone started to realise 250W continuous power didn't mean anything in terms of power limits.
Then DJI got involved and any pretext that there was a power limit was blown out of the water.
I don't buy the argument that increasing power doesn't cause safety risks because the speed limiter is still in place. It's not a coincidence that the Dutch started talking about helmets after ebikes became widespread:
THEGUARDIAN.COM I think what annoys me most about the Avinox is that it is being treated like some kind of engineering marvel whereas in reality, adding power to an electric motor is really really easy.
All DJI did was what all the other manufacturers had (sensibly) not been doing for many years.
Wow, this got a bit nasty and personal!
I know the spot on Cardie Hill well, its a flipping eyesore and getting worse and worse. For those arguing for a challenge to the climb there are several options which have been part of that climb since it was built. There's no justification for damaging the ground any further.
Henry Quinney (formerly GMBN/Pinkbike) said it best on one of Remy Metailler's recent podcasts...
"DJI don't give a f*** about mountain biking"
Henry Quinney (formerly GMBN/Pinkbike) said it best on one of Remy Metailler's recent podcasts...
"DJI don't give a f*** about mountain biking"
On the one hand, yes.
On the other, they just jumped straight to where the rest of the motor manufacturers were already heading (maybe).
LLandegla again... Got talking to a bloke on a brand new Amflow. Told me how he had removed the 15.5mph limiter because, "With the standard limit I hold XC bikes up on the flat stuff"... FFS 🤬
Shouldn't be possible. Does the new Amflow fail the anti-tamper aspect of EN15194, section 4.2.17?
Will the increasing uphill speed for decreasing effort cause more conflict and result in a crackdown on all MTBing on these trails?
I think the different appeal of high power E-MTBs appeals to riders with a different approach to all this so the behaviour may change. But what causes us all the most reputational damage is digging in the wrong places, downhill speeds and being a dick around walkers and horses. Whether that increases bc of the different or wider appeal of E-MTBs I don't know but my hunch is it won't get worse than it already is (ime it's not that bad, depends on the area, isolated incidents more than a general thing, and so on).
Many have been swept up into this winch n plummet stylee, changing fashions away from natural feeling trails to motorway compacted berms...
People have been moaning about these bikepark style trails for years, nothing to do with ebikes.
LLandegla again... Got talking to a bloke on a brand new Amflow. Told me how he had removed the 15.5mph limiter because, "With the standard limit I hold XC bikes up on the flat stuff"... FFS 🤬
Shouldn't be possible. Does the new Amflow fail the anti-tamper aspect of EN15194, section 4.2.17?
A VPN on your phone set to New Zealand is all you need to change or remove the UK speed limit on an Amflow.
I know I may come across as the Patron Saint of eBikes, but it is a bit of piss-take.
you share a hobby with.
I think there's some indefinite dividing line between the concept of assisted pedalling and the higher output motors now being sold and the more powerful the motor the less of "my hobby" it becomes. You can go back to the very early days of this forum and find folk complaining about moto-crossers ripping up trails because folk see that as a different hobby. This really isn't any different.
Nonsense.
A VPN on your phone set to New Zealand is all you need to change or remove the UK speed limit on an Amflow.
I know I may come across as the Patron Saint of eBikes, but it is a bit of piss-take.
The trouble is, manufacturers have to take into account 'reasonably foreseeable misuse' according to EN15194.
This kind of thing is very foreseeable.
A VPN on your phone set to New Zealand is all you need to change or remove the UK speed limit on an Amflow.
I know I may come across as the Patron Saint of eBikes, but it is a bit of piss-take.
Then it may well fail that aspect of EN15194 bc the manufacturer isn't protecting that function well enough.
As someone said above, DJI probably don't give a shit about MTB but the regulators might give a shit about easy-tamper EPACs coming into the UK and/or EU, plus there's an e-bike industry in the EU who might take note.
you share a hobby with.
I think there's some indefinite dividing line between the concept of assisted pedalling and the higher output motors now being sold and the more powerful the motor the less of "my hobby" it becomes. You can go back to the very early days of this forum and find folk complaining about moto-crossers ripping up trails because folk see that as a different hobby. This really isn't any different.
Nonsense.
A well-reasoned rebuttal there.
I'd guess Ebikes cause less damage over regular bikes than regular bikes cause over walking. "I can see tyre tracks and skiddy lines in the mud.... wahhh"
So if you really care about the countryside then leave the bike at home.
But you won't cos you like doing your thing. Same as Ebikers.
I ride mostly regular bikes and all this bitching and crying about other people sharing the same space but doing it in a different way is a bit pathetic.
I think you’ll find that the pressure per square inch/cm is more from the human foot than even the skinniest ATB tyre!
I think you'll find that pressure per square inch isn't even a thing.
( Sorry)
I think you’ll find that the pressure per square inch/cm is more from the human foot than even the skinniest ATB tyre!
Yet the marks all over The Peak where bikes have been are there for all to see. Bikes braking in mud and slipping around cause a lot of trail erosion. Les Arcs anyone?
I'd guess Ebikes cause less damage over regular bikes than regular bikes cause over walking. "I can see tyre tracks and skiddy lines in the mud.... wahhh"
Maybe your guess is wrong? (sometimes)
Not sure if this link will work or you need to be a member
Maybe your guess is wrong? (sometimes)
That article even states its based on riding smoothly and carefully. Yeah, cos mountain bikers always do that 🙂 We never overcook turns or run wide do we? Only going out when its dry, just bimbling along in our high viz and lyrca, pinging our bell as we go. Oh how pious we are.
That article even states its based on riding smoothly and carefully.
Yes, there are a few reasons why that rather old article may not entirely cover a big chunk of real life but I did say 'sometimes' 😀
@thegeneralist as you’re obviously of superior intellect to me, what is the correct term that I should be using instead?
Oh, smartarse, is it Pa?
Fat tyres for all?
correct term
Pressure innit?
I did snowdon back in the day on my Diamondback Topanga and all the walkers greeted me with a smile as I barely passed them at 3mph, I can imagine they will soon get pissed off with people coming up behind them and passing them at 15mph or more, STRAVA!
@scotroutes I’m with you, I don’t concern myself with damaging the terrain when I’m running 4.8” tyres at 5psi. Smug is the word!