Ah. There may be two separate issues here. Within the confines of a "trail centre" (however you wish to define that) the idea of having discrete lines for ebikes might address some of the OPs concerns.
Out in the wider world I'd rather just not be able to tell if someone else was only using their own muscles or if they were supplementing them with external assistance. For sure, the number of riders getting further/higher will (and has shown) an increase but I don't think it's yet been clearly visible in increased trail erosion, new lines and so on - at least not where I've been recently. I can imagine that the likes of the Torridon trails might be taking more of a pounding? I've not been riding my trail MTB much in the past couple of years. I wonder how much difference in the trails I'll see if/when I do.
Just a wild stab in the dark, given the topic op was about line choice and not messing up the trails......maybe stick to the existing lines and don't straight line stuff just because you can?
... or maybe see a bigger picture and read down to, err, the second comment where someone was cross merely because an ebiker spoke to them while overtaking on the same climb ?
Have you met humans before?
It's nothing to do with the bikes.
This, times a million.
Its not the fact they are ebikers. It's the fact they are prats.
... or maybe see a bigger picture and read down to, err, the second comment where someone was cross merely because an ebiker spoke to them while overtaking on the same climb ?
or maybe read a little further down where the same person said "Hmm, maybe I was being overly harsh."
That was responding to me, so I was aware. And, fine, but why react at all ? I'd suggest some underlying hostility exists in at least some MTBersor maybe read a little further down where the same person said "Hmm, maybe I was being overly harsh."
Though you're right; after that you have to go all the way to Post 7 - "they don't wave, you know - and he stole my Strava ranking". Or of course, other threads where general hostility/deprecation are expressed quite widely
As much as I'm aware of the 250W continuous power over 30mins restriction in the UK on the roads, I didn't know until just googling it, that this limit apparently also applies to trail centres like QECP, that's just over 20 miles from me.
Could barriers of some sort be setup to try and prevent any riders going off the official meandering paths, like fencing or hedges? Or maybe some soil ruts that disrupt the slope profile and cost far less in materials (but need plenty of volunteer time)?
Would my 40Nm (very low by eMTB standards) gravel ebike be capable of riding QECP in the summer on Caracal Races, Nanos or Marathon Supremes?
Cardie hill is a blue climb... It's been nicely built but I think most would agree not particularly engaging for an experienced rider once you've done it a few too many times. Because of this I've ridden every one of those slightly more challenging "shortcuts" at one time or another on a normal bike.
Instead of scowling at tyre tracks that haven't actually affected your ride in any way. And then getting even angrier about it afterwards. Why not try them yourself? Cleaning some of the more challenging shortcuts might actually cheer you up. Infact. Can you imagine the immense sense of self importance it would give you if you cleaned a steep slippy section on your mtb and the next rider on an emtb failed or had to dab.
Part of the draw of mtb in Scotland for me was that we can just get out and explore riding where we fancy and challenge ourselves to ride new stuff we've stumbled upon.
Im not the only rider to have been riding Glentress forest over a decade before a trail centre was ever thought of. Among the walkers paths double track and forestry fire roads lot of the single track we rode back then were originally animal tracks and only really became mtb trails because of us and our friends' tyre tracks cutting in the route. Trail centre building 10 or so years later actually destroyed some of my favourite natural singletrack in Glentress. Should I scowl every time I pass by? Or wait until I'm home and start an Internet rant trying to stoke hate for all trailbuilders?
Riding unsanctioned sections of Glentress forest's singletrack isn't ever going to stop... But I find it funny that in the past has it been deemed OK for event organisers to cut new (often muddy, poorly built) paths linking between official trails for their various mtb events. But ironically. Not OK for an "ordinary" rider to simply choose to ride somewhere they've seen as an enjoyable, new, challenging or simply quicker section?
BTW? Have you ever ridden any "off-piste" at Glentress? Because when any of that was originally built. I fail to see how its any different to what you're moaning about here.
Is it jealousy ?
Been at Llandegla this morning and straight lined a switch back climb. If it was ‘in the wild’ I wouldn’t but because it’s a man made trail centre why not?
It doesn’t make any odds does it for people who follow the easier route ?
After visiting Llandegla a couple of weeks ago I assumed that the lines straight up and avoiding the nicely graded curves were caused by folks coming down, doing the routes after hours in reverse direction. Now I know.
Did you not notice the erosion that was being caused by rainwater flooding down these routes? Yes, Llandegla is artificial, but designed to drain, designed to endure severe weather. Evidently it needs designing to resist dickheads too.
I find in the trail centres in south wales, the trees have had to be cut down and down there’s nothing to stop the run from just running down the side of the hill and redoing the trails.
Even before Emtb’s, the trails were getting rougher and rougher, downhill it’s more fun, but uphill especially something like the climb at the start of Whites Level, is on another level now and is a bastard. 20 years ago, I would’ve loved it but not anymore
BTW? Have you ever ridden any "off-piste" at Glentress? Because when any of that was originally built. I fail to see how its any different to what you're moaning about here.
So many gatekeepers on here with big added dollops of sanctimony
So many law breakers too?
So many law breakers too?
Give it a rest mate. You're probably a decent bloke, but you ain't half boring. Of all the laws I've broken in my lifetime, removing a limiter on an ebike is probably right at the bottom of the pile pal
The pictures show some of the shortcuts on Cardie Hill and a bonus one up near the mast. There are shortcuts that have existed for years, they are armoured and allow faster riders to overtake but in some places there are now two shortcuts. The shortcut in the picture is just going to get wider and deeper, mud will get dragged onto the trail, that will hold the water which flows down the rut and result in puddles which will get wider and deeper and will ultimately need repaired. What kind of achievement is there in using full power on your ebike to spin up a muddy climb? I'm not that insecure I need to compare my abilities. The picture near the mast I don't get at all, you're just making a mess, pure and simple, it's not big and it's not clever, there's a really acceptable trail just to the side. I don't know if it's people going up or down or both but I just don't see the point.
So many law breakers too?
Give it a rest mate. You're probably a decent bloke, but you ain't half boring. Of all the laws I've broken in my lifetime, removing a limiter on an ebike is probably right at the bottom of the pile pal
If you said to a cyclist that electric motorbikes are now going to ride everywhere that they can go, following them off the places that cars and petrol motorbikes can’t go, onto the cycle paths, amongst the kids, up the mountains and on the trail centres, it is understandable that the cyclist may say- no way, that’s crap, I don’t want that.
Then you tell them, no it’s ok, there is a special category that limits the electric bike so that essentially it behaves like a normal bike, you’d hardly notice the difference… it just allows cyclists to go a bit further or helps those who aren’t as able, etc. Ok, phew, that’s ok then says the cyclist…
But then… it doesn’t turn out like that.
I am happy to accept and defend legal e-bikes as we thought they were supposed to be. Take the piss out of them by all means but don’t have a go at the riders just beciase they ride an ebike. After all, we may all end up riding them one day.
But you can’t have it both ways. Chipped and illegal e-bikes undermine the whole concept. Trail centres aren’t the battleground I care about really, it’s bike and shared use paths and urban streets. But just because you are a mountain biker doesn’t make it right to defeat the speed limiter and if you are going to ride an illegal bike and say it does no harm, do it quietly if you must, so nobody notices, don’t broadcast it and defend it… not everyone who you inspire to do the same maybe as thoughtful and careful as you.
And if the technology has overtaken the legislation… maybe we need to update the law to keep pedalec e-bikes as they were originally intended…
do it quietly if you must, so nobody notices, don’t broadcast it
There's a 337 thread/7.9k posts section dedicated to it on EMTB Forums. It's not a dirty little secret
Calling people “gatekeepers” is not necessarily an insult. I care about the countryside, I care about our access to it both on foot and two wheels, or three/four if less able and also horses. I can see that this endless arms race for power is going to limit access for everyone. Whilst a blind eye has been turned to the use of footpaths or the use of nature important land (for example Stanton Moor), by bicycles, I can see a time, probably not far away, where e-bikes will have greater restrictions placed on them.
This will not only affect the selfish weekend warriors but also people who need e-bikes because of poor health, for commuting or the transport of goods. Please consider that when you’re shredding it on public land.
As I've already suggested ebikes effectively spell the death-knell for greater access rights for cyclists in Ni, Wales and England.The "gatekeepers" aren't, in this case, other cyclists.
do it quietly if you must, so nobody notices, don’t broadcast it
There's a 337 thread/7.9k posts section dedicated to it on EMTB Forums. It's not a dirty little secret
Well that kind of proves the point that there is something of an issue. We were given an exemption from the normal rules associated with riding a motorbike. The terms of that exemption are that the electric motorbikes are limited to prevent the harm associated with motorised transport and by ensuring that the bikes and riders behave almost as they would on a normal bike and so remain compatible with most aspects of normal cycling. If we and the manufacturers stuck to the rules (and the spirit of the rules) all would be fine. People and manufacturers aren’t satisfied with those terms though… and so they mess it all up.
Who decides on the ‘spirit of the rules’? Asking for a friend.
Calling people “gatekeepers” is not necessarily an insult. I care about the countryside, I care about our access to it both on foot and two wheels, or three/four if less able and also horses. I can see that this endless arms race for power is going to limit access for everyone. Whilst a blind eye has been turned to the use of footpaths or the use of nature important land (for example Stanton Moor), by bicycles, I can see a time, probably not far away, where e-bikes will have greater restrictions placed on them.
Insult or not, you're still gatekeeping. The countryside existed way before you decided it was ok to ride your bike over it. You set your acceptable limits at the boundary of what you do and nothing beyond that.
Stanton Moor is my go to, I and a few others ride it and there is zero visible impact up there to the flora and fauna from MTB's leg powered or motor powered - bikes stick to the very well worn and hard wearing tracks, unlike the hundreds of thousands of touristy footfall looking for the 9 Ladies that will tramp across anything in their way.
Get off your high horse, you live in the Derbyshire Dales, the bridleway tracks are crap, so I refuse to believe you don't ride some footpaths
Who decides on the ‘spirit of the rules’? Asking for a friend.
For us it’s rule number one innit.
But as for manufacturers, it would seem that they are pushing the limits in terms of selling motors that seem to comply with the 250 continuous but are in fact much more powerful. ie they are keeping to the letter of the law… but ignoring the spirit.
Who decides on the ‘spirit of the rules’? Asking for a friend.
For us it’s rule number one innit.
But as for manufacturers, it would seem that they are pushing the limits in terms of selling motors that seem to comply with the 250 continuous but are in fact much more powerful. ie they are keeping to the letter of the law… but ignoring the spirit.
They either comply or they don't.
I'm not sure what the 'spirit of the rules' means either TBF. Have you just made that up?
Who decides on the ‘spirit of the rules’? Asking for a friend.
For us it’s rule number one innit.
But as for manufacturers, it would seem that they are pushing the limits in terms of selling motors that seem to comply with the 250 continuous but are in fact much more powerful. ie they are keeping to the letter of the law… but ignoring the spirit.
They either comply or they don't.
I'm not sure what the 'spirit of the rules' means either TBF. Have you just made that up?
Made what up?
“They either comply or they don't.
I'm not sure what the 'spirit of the rules' means either TBF. Have you just made that up?”
Something strange happened when ebike power limits were defined. Whilst the max speeds are clear, the max power rating is actually a minimum power rating according to thermal issues - if the motor can’t sustain 250W without overheating then it doesn’t pass. It isn’t a max power rating, it’s not even a max continuous power rating.
Now that it’s become easy technically and acceptable within the industry to exceed this the actual max power has gone up and up. And speed limiter cut-outs can be bypassed (illegal but not hard on many bikes).
It would be a shame if the increasing power of ebikes caused an increasing amount of anti-social behaviour thus creating more conflict between all MTB riders and everyone else.
Something strange happened when ebike power limits were defined. Whilst the max speeds are clear, the max power rating is actually a minimum power rating according to thermal issues - if the motor can’t sustain 250W without overheating then it doesn’t pass. It isn’t a max power rating, it’s not even a max continuous power rating
I'd be interested to know where this is written, it’d be useful.
the Gov Uk site and every other reference I’ve found states continuous power no higher than 250w?
Just allows more/lazy people into the hills, which we are meant to 'celebrate' alongside lots of other things I don't really think are causes for celebration. Has made the sport even less good-weird than it was before and even more gadget boy bad-weird than it was.
After visiting Llandegla a couple of weeks ago I assumed that the lines straight up and avoiding the nicely graded curves were caused by folks coming down, doing the routes after hours in reverse direction. Now I know.
Did you not notice the erosion that was being caused by rainwater flooding down these routes? Yes, Llandegla is artificial, but designed to drain, designed to endure severe weather. Evidently it needs designing to resist dickheads too.
This is becoming a real issue at some of our local trails.
Some of the off-piste locations I ride in rainforest has adjacent off-piste moto trails. Every now and then one of the moto riders will spot an mtb trail and have a look. Pretty soon they get to tight turns and straight line them, and any kind of uphill or corner exit throttle tears the track to shreds.
E-bikes aren't causing damage as bad as this of course, but at some of the locations where motos stay out there are some seriously challenging climbs that are developing E-lines. Fragile geology and 2+ metres annual rainfall means a lot of the singletrack was built really carefully. Some of the trails will get closed or need $000s spending to reroute them. Maybe an e-tariff should be imposed for all the rich e-boys? (tongue-in-cheek)
Whilst a blind eye has been turned to the use of footpaths or the use of nature important land (for example Stanton Moor), by bicycles, I can see a time, probably not far away, where e-bikes will have greater restrictions placed on them.
This is what I said, Artist, I know that in Derbyshire and other places, footpaths are necessary to link bridleways and I use them in a considerate manner. “Be nice, say Hi!” Is the best approach. I was trying to say, perhaps clumsily, that the new approach to riding, enabled by e-bikes, is going to lead to more scrutiny on everyone and more restrictions on everyone too.
Whilst I disagree with you, Artist, on the use of Stanton Moor by bicycles, I do agree that the actions of some around the circle are poor. The fires, barbecues and litter, especially around the Solstice.
Did you not notice the erosion that was being caused by rainwater flooding down these routes? Yes, Llandegla is artificial, but designed to drain, designed to endure severe weather. Evidently it needs designing to resist dickheads too.
You know you can get up them on an analogue bike too?
Llandegla haven’t spent money on maintenance in a long time! Odly they have signs saying no chipped e-bikes but then when you look at some of the KOMs clearly there are lots of chipped bikes
IMO a lot of ebikers stay to areas they know/it’s convenient. Unfortunately modern ebikers do appear to be a certain type and don’t care so much about rules/environment
However YouTube I think causes more damage. There’s an area that isn’t that far from Llandegla that is stunning riding/scenery but recently has appeared on YouTube quite a lot. It’s the encouraging people to ride there on e-bikes and analogs who clearly don’t care so much about the environment they are riding in ie skid braking, widening trails, scraping rocks
Something strange happened when ebike power limits were defined. Whilst the max speeds are clear, the max power rating is actually a minimum power rating according to thermal issues - if the motor can’t sustain 250W without overheating then it doesn’t pass. It isn’t a max power rating, it’s not even a max continuous power rating
I'd be interested to know where this is written, it’d be useful.
the Gov Uk site and every other reference I’ve found states continuous power no higher than 250w?
EN15194, the standards for e-bikes. Max Continuous Rated Power tests. Motor is tested for heat equilibrium at the output or 'Max Cont. Rated Power' as stated by the motor manufacturer. Not the same as absolute max output and a motor capable of being run at well over 250w 'continuous' can pass though would normally be set up with system voltage that keeps it at 250W (a motor in a 36V system for 250W will give 350W in a 48V system).
In many ways the output power is a red herring when the cut-off is 25kph, the main point to manage safety of others is speed. There isn't anything defining where it's ok to do 25kph or not so if you have 2000W on tap for a few minutes and can climb a wall at 25kph that's legal.
How you control that power elsewhere or limit trail damage isn't DJI's concern, I don't expect they GAS. Let's face it, they have other products that do far more damage in other people's hands.
there's a new video up showing Tommy hype riding up the llanberis path then riding down the pyg.
that kind of stuff really makes me twitch and when i challenged him about it excuse was that he's not exactly encouraging others to ride it.
it's that kind of ebike mentality that ****s me off, speaking as biker, e and whatever
LLandegla again... Got talking to a bloke on a brand new Amflow. Told me how he had removed the 15.5mph limiter because, "With the standard limit I hold XC bikes up on the flat stuff"... FFS 🤬
I hate corner-cutters too. That's in all aspects of life.
"I'd be interested to know where this is written, it’d be useful.
the Gov Uk site and every other reference I’ve found states continuous power no higher than 250w?"
The regulations seem to be a total mess. I've had a look into them and as far as I can see the max power test is a fairly insignificant part of EN15194 and the companies self-certify and it's very hard to do a pure motor shaft power test on a bike that only runs when you pedal. There isn't a peak power limit and it looks like you can just state that your bike is 250W continuous without having to prove it because no-one is actually checking.
The few times I've tried to go out on e-bike group rides I've been ripped a new one. My 2021 Levo Turbo has been a fantastic leveller when heading out with younger / fitter riders. But against other e-bikers I'm left standing. Up until now I'd assumed it was because I'm fat, unfit and useless on a bike, but after reading this thread....am I the only unchipped rider in the village?
it's that kind of ebike mentality that ****s me off, speaking as biker, e and whatever
Where does the issue people seem to have sit?
- The motor arms race?
- The fact that toolbags also ride MTB's?
- A combination of both?
Genuinely curious. Me personally, my issue is toolbags ride bikes. People, especially toolbags will find a way to annoy other people and show a lack of respect to their environment and impact.
Case in point the trials motorbike riders that came ragging up Doctors Orders at Deepcar yesterday.
am I the only unchipped rider in the village?
they dont need to be chipped bikes, as the OP says, its very hard to measure/test as the definition of the peak output isnt pinned down (OP has clearly done more reading that me). Continuous power output tells you nothing of peak power output, or torque.
the reason these DJI Avinox motors are so popular is they deliver a huge amount of power. People say comparing an avinox to a bosch unit is like comparing a bosch unit to normal cycling. All while staying "within the regs"
People say comparing an avinox to a bosch unit is like comparing a bosch unit to normal cycling.
And even the Bosch motor is capable of delivering its max power for 8 mins in tests apparently before heat management reduces it. So 750Watts plus add in say 150w from the rider and you are at 900 watts for 8 minutes and a cumulative power performance far outstripping what Pogacar (or Pidcock on his XC bike) would be capable of (though admittedly the w/kg won't quite so amazing given the weight of an emtb and a recreational rider in comparison to an emaciated elite rider on a featherlight bike). I'd imagine that would be pretty compelling to ride.
LLandegla again... Got talking to a bloke on a brand new Amflow. Told me how he had removed the 15.5mph limiter because, "With the standard limit I hold XC bikes up on the flat stuff"... FFS 🤬
I hate corner-cutters too. That's in all aspects of life.
Yeah, the XC guys should be limited to 15.5mph too. Tearing around the flats with their skinny legs and energy gels 😠
So, so much bitterness, I'm not sure if all of you are quite well. You might as well scream "You're having fun in a subtle, but different way to me, you're everything wrong with the world!"
I mean, launching into a verbal attack on someone for the crime of passing you on a climb without a "by your leave sir". Why not talk your problems out with a friend or a loved one, rather than taking it out on random members of the public that you share a hobby with.
Isn't one of the things about Amflows that their motor will scale-up to 8x input where many only do 4x or maybe 6x ? Means you could get 800W out of it without breaking sweat whereas pedaling at 200W on a bike that "only" does 4x is decently strenuous
But against other e-bikers I'm left standing. Up until now I'd assumed it was because I'm fat, unfit and useless on a bike, but after reading this thread....am I the only unchipped rider in the village?
Nope, same boat here. SL e-bike with 'only' 60Nm/450w peak/430Wh. Although saying that, I've only ridden my eMTB in a group on a handful of occasions so it's not a common scenario. 95% of my use is solo. They tend to stop, chat and wait so never an issue to catch up 😀
Each to their own with eMTB use. I generally ride natural trails than trailcentres, but restarted visiting Glentress over past few years with the kids. Shortcuts/direct lines existed before the rise of eMTBs, but so did dickheads on ANY sort of bike. I still remember years ago being T-boned on a sharp uphill switchback by some XCer trying to overtake me up the inside - they must've forgotten it wasn't a race 🙄
So, so much bitterness, I'm not sure if all of you are quite well. You might as well scream "You're having fun in a subtle, but different way to me, you're everything wrong with the world!"
I mean, launching into a verbal attack on someone for the crime of passing you on a climb without a "by your leave sir". Why not talk your problems out with a friend or a loved one, rather than taking it out on random members of the public that you share a hobby with.
A lot of confirmation bias too, because they've had one or two bad encounters they assume everyone is the same.
They won't confront the problem in person though, easier to whinge about it on here.
On my ebike ride yesterday, which is typical...
-Said hello or nodded to everyone I passed (including 4 kids on quads/Surrons who were riding around the fireroads).
-Offered to a tube to a guy who had burped his rear tyre and had no means to resolve it (he'd had enough for the day and was happy to push back to his car).
-Waited for a guy on a normal bike to complete a rooty/techy climb so I didn't blast past him (it's wide enough and I could have). He didn't even acknowledge my existence when I said hello at the top, the monster.
-Stopped to let two people pass who were lost walking up a downhill MTB trail, and told them how to get back onto the walkers path to the tower at the summit, after chatting about how lovely a day it was and how nice it was to be out in the woods.
-Stopped for various off the leash dogs and petted one who came over.
-Took no uphill shortcuts or downhill Strava lines.
-Went through any puddles I found as not to widen them.
-Cleared some branches and debris from a little used trail.
-Put in a trail report on TrailForks for a fallen tree on another trail that was too heavy for me to move myself.
-Got overtaken on the way home by two Just Eat riders on DIY ebikes because my bike is limited to 15.5mph.
...but yeah, I'm just a lazy dick and I'm ruining it for everyone🤷♂️
