In this episode of the Singletrack Podcast we have a Mrs Merton-style ‘heated debate’ about eeb numbers.
Benji and Mark layout the Singletrack Magazine editorial team’s concerns around peak power for the latest wave of eMTB motors and firmwares. We (well, Benji) also bangs on (and on) about how Trail Bikes should just get in the sea.
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You can listen to the whole 42 minute thang below…
Are they? I can’t help putting them in the same category as XTR level kit and extra expensive forks like fox Podiums. Yes these things are available to buy, but they’re not cheap and we can argue about them even being “affordable” for the majority (especially in permanently austerity struck Blighty).
I think what e-MTBs have become is the aspirational version of MTBing for the Majority, just because the bicycling meeja says eeebs are awesome and the great unwashed all wants them, doesn’t mean the majority can actually afford them… I don’t think the Majority all have eeebs now do they(?)
Fair point, and the data probably doesn’t differentiate much between traffic/engagement from the “for” or “against” perspectives, as many people are “hate-viewing” the media coverage of Avinox stuff as **** themselves silly over all the wattage numbers I reckon… The attention economy values all flavours of engagement…
I don’t think you can criticise cycling media for covering E-bikes, they’re a thing that exists in the world of cycling and there is interest and controversy surrounding them. But they’re not the only thing happening in the world of MTBs perhaps their media footprint should reflect their actual importance…
See also some outlets’ absolute obsession with 32″ wheels. They’re niche even among pros, but it’s content, it’s clicks, it’s a living…
I think it’s probably slightly more nuanced than that, but broadly speaking, yes, along those lines. What’s concerning is the drift towards the idea that they’ve somehow supplanted normal bikes.
I actually have an e-mtb – long story, kind friend, long covid – if anything, the experience has taught me to value being able to ride non-assisted mountain bikes more. My pet hate is the noise electric motors make, but if you take the unconditional effort out of riding a bike, it is, in my opinion anyway, no longer the same thing.
For some reason – maybe it’s self interest, maybe it’s just lack of any curiosity about the metaphysics (sorry) of mountain biking, the mountain bike media, seems unable to even acknowledge the idea that e-mtbs might have any downsides – noise pollution, weight, complexity, sustainability, the nature of mountain biking as a sport etc. It’s depressingly uncritical. There’s an almost complete lack of curiosity, like a sort of technological brainwashing.
YES! And it’d actually be more credible, I’d take it on board more, if it had more measured criticism. “These are the drawbacks in our experience, and our concerns/ issues" gives more weight to the final conclusions
I’m not so sure – I think there’s a few journos (not all, of course) who don’t think eMTBs are the bees knees
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/opinion/emtbs-are-ruining-mountain-biking-but-not-in-the-way-you-might-think
Yes, that’s one thing. Something else that I’ve never seen mentioned is how riding an e-mtb can completely change the rhythm of a ride. Normal trail rides round here at least, tend to mix short climbs with corresponding descents, it’s jagged. For me, the climbs have always been a mix of just turning over a gear steadily and being able to think, muse, get into the rhythm of climbing and/or short, brutal, technical anaerobic efforts.
With an e-mtb, climbs can be something that you just get done with minimal fuss or effort, from being a mash-up of different types of riding, to a sort of ‘fast forward’, speeded up experience where you’re racing through the ad-breaks to get to the good stuff, except in this case, climbs are also ‘the good stuff’, just different. I know that’s a bit overly cerebral, but as with Mr BikeRadar, I find e-mtbs weirdly unsatisfying. Sure, you’re in the same places and you have two wheels, but the process is different. Sigh, I should get out more. Maybe I need an e-mtb?
I’ve found that this is true of most STW reviews, not just when it comes to Eebs. It seems simply that they’re mostly of the opinion that new=good, with very little consideration of ‘why’ (and when that question is asked, they believe the answers given to them by the respective marketing department).
eMTBs are rapidly changing from being a bit of help to enable less fit riders to do a bit more, into something more like an electric motorbike.
The three guys I mentioned above gave the impression that without eBikes they wouldn’t have been out riding.
I don’t put eBikes in the same box as XTR as those guys obviously had £4k each to spend on a bike but they didn’t choose an XTR equipped dandy horse because the reality is that whatever performance you get from XTR is absolute infinitesimal compared to the real assistance an eBike gives you.
I think their actual importance, whether for better or worse, is bringing in people who wouldn’t otherwise be cycling. No amount of XTR shaving 50 grams off a derailleur is going to bring any new riders in.
I don’t think the total price is the issue. I suspect many are bought on finance and all that matters is the monthly repayment amount
Bikes that accelerate quickly, may have been deregulated, mixed use paths and a bit of footpath use.
What could possibly go wrong?
Who cares? I’m coming to the conclusion that as long as they meet the current legislation (they do, perhaps with VPN derestriction ability TBD as another topic) then I really don’t care what the output max power is. We won’t get banned from areas bc of motor power, it’ll be because of rider behaviour, the same risks as we’ve had for 30+ years and it’s not been a major issue. Digging trails causes more grief.
Talking about 1000W or 1500W isn’t the point, it’s more about how we went from one class of product to a very different one while mostly lumping it all in as the same thing. That’s how it got this far. Let’s face it, MTB has changed and that isn’t really being discussed, we just have debates about power levels. Or, perhaps it’s not really changed bc I see e-MTB as a downhill bike culture on bikes that go XC. Anyway, what general/average MTB is and what the bikes are has changed. Get with it or let it go, I reckon.
I’m not anti-eMTB and I said years ago that MTB was becoming a powered sport so where we are heading is no suprise to me. I just … don’t really care? I don’t feel like I’m having to defend MTB by worrying about e-MTB specs because to me it’s not MTB anymore anyway. It’s something else for someone else to worry about. Zero interest personally (yet have had fun days riding them). And that’s just my opinion which shapes how I feel about e-MTB power levels, rather than anything that matters to anyone.
Ride what you like. Ride a Surron in the woods if you like*, just don’t be a dick. Let’s talk more about behaviour or why we ride and how that shapes the product we choose, and less about tech specs of some new motor. It’s about as interesting as damper tuning or power meters.
*they’re quieter than the **** 2-strokes I see on FPs and bridleways fairly often.
… meant as a general comment rather than a dig at STW content btw. Points about less tech and more meaning in bike chat overall, is what I was getting at.
Good podcast, partic. the point that it doesn’t make the difference the specs suggest.
I respectfully disagree about the behavioural risk not changing.
The power is helping open the door to more people whose behaviour is likely to be a problem and can reasonably be expected to amplify bad existing behaviours from others. That increases the risk and feeds the noise and NIMBYs arguments for restrictions and access loss.
We are way beyond enabling people with medical conditions, fitness issues and aging now. All good things that e-bikes help overcome.
This power arms race is not just about market share but market growth. That means deliberately opening the door to those who are put off by effort for reward and where trail manners are more likely to be lacking. Much like the high power luxury car/SUV space – they are likely to attract certain kinds of buyer and that buyer is more likely to exhibit certain kinds of behaviour.
The existing users will do what they do but it’s the new entrants that concern me.
Maybe I’ve been sheltered – living in the Derbyshire Dales, we aren’t exactly the mecca of MTB, ‘e’ or otherwise, but we aren’t devoid of it either. I’ve literally never seen anyone being a dick on an ebike
I thought that could be a risk at first. But we’ve had 150mm travel, big tyres and brakes and steep hills for ages. It’s easy to be a dick on any downhill. It’s easy to pedal past 15mph on a regular bike in shared use areas. E-bikes add an option in how to be a dick, but not the numbers who are likely to be a dick. MTB overall isn’t growing at any rate these days. So I don’t think it’s a justified concern unless e-MTBs are attracting a different rider entirely, in large numbers, and their behaviour is very different to the past MTB crowd (and I don’t think that’s the case).
mmm… respectfully… ebikes allow more people to be a dick. Blasting past at 15mph doesn’t require any level of fitness any more; ebikes allow people without skills to feel that they’re excellent at biking and blast through sections that other bikers may be taking a little more time over.
IMO the vastly more powerful ebikes are attracting people to “cycling" who lack the experience of riding for a number of years without motor assistance, or some experience of moderate power ebikes.
In many cases, these riders will be heavier, while the ebikes will certainly be heavier than the motorless equivalents.
So when involved in collisions with others, these heavier rider/ebike combined weight systems will cause more damage, especially when they are travelling faster thanks to their derestricted motors.
Is it really though.
Riding downhill (on road or off) at pace requires a degree of skill and experience or a willingness for injury. It’s why it’s the only direction I can beat my super fit teens in 🤣
Don’t know about the power debate, but I’d rather see e-bike manufacturers return to some kind of throttle assist.
besides making it easier to clear sections where pedalling is not possible, it would make it easier to pull ahead at traffic lights when you’re in the wrong gear.
But you don’t need to be going that fast to be a dick? You can roll past walkers or a horse too close at 15mph and any rider can do a speed that many think is ‘too fast!’. It’s them that decide who the idiots are, not us. And about ‘new riders coming in who lack the experience’ – some are greenlaners who handle bikes better than many MTBers, many MTBs are pony trekkkers on wheels too, not many of us are real pinners are we. Anyway.. bias or reality, who knows. I don’t. If the suggested behaviour change is reality it supports the view that e-MTB is or will become something different to unpowered MTB and supports my thoughts of ‘who cares, have 2000W, fill yer boots, get banned, whatever.. it has nothing to do with me and cycling’. I can’t stop idiot happening (if it actually does?). There’ll be a grey area in between of course, moderate power e-MTBs ridden like normal bikes, likely they will all get lumped in together though.
Perhaps if we feel strongly about all this we take it to the bike brands. Buy from brands that make products you like and don’t make products you believe are bad for MTB. Don’t support brands who in future head in a direction you believe does threaten access. Support brands who do work on MTB access and support riding outside of business. Tell the brands what you think.
Ebikes are definitely bringing more people in with a different mentality – just as gravel riders have a different mentality.
Ebikes allow more people who didn’t bother before to get involved. So for those who have been doing this for a while and have a respect for the outdoors and nature etc, are now being reduced in numbers as you have more people who have less respect for these things now using the land on an electric bike so they can access it now. A lot are respectful but there are plenty who aren’t and they tend to be more visible somehow.
In a similar fashion, a lot of gravel riders (not all or most) come from a road riding background, so there are plenty of gravel rides where there are many riders all riding like a road group, but not on the road…those with a more off-road background tend to be in smaller groups and more single file, but the road-rising gravel riders tend to be in bigger groups as a bunch – each to their own but it shows.
I’ve no concerns about the gravel rider example above, but it would be great if everyone (and it is everyone) had a bit more consideration whilst out in the Great outdoors.
More people riding bikes is a great thing and if people want to ride an ebike then go for it…if it gets out and appreciate what is around you then all good…don’t all be like me (as I’m not saint either), but do try to be more considerate.
🤣
I heard that nobody rode a footpath or dug out a cheeky trail until Specialized released the Levo.