Anyone ridden the Mojo Nicolai yet?

I won't derail this thread but after being sucked into Nicolai's orbit by the Geometron I now find myself staring at this...
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[img] ?1426776174[/img]

Not many full builds to look at online. Definitely a good base for an unusual custom build for those of us who don't want to switch to plastic. I'd love to try one.

I know most riders don't think about this at all, but I like how alloy frames (whether made in Germany or Taiwan) are made by skilled welders doing a relatively enjoyable and satisfying job on a decent wage - unlike carbon frames which are time-consuming and unpleasant to lay up and thus done by cheap Chinese labour with a flexible view on working conditions and health and safety...

Can't really get my head round having to stop pedaling to change gears either.

I'm sure if you went back a decade and asked people if my current 140mm bike with a head angle approaching 65 deg was a good idea they'd say it was downright silly!

and thus done by cheap Chinese labour with a flexible view on working conditions and health and safety...

I'm sure if you went back a decade and asked people if my current 140mm bike with a head angle approaching 65 deg was a good idea they'd say it was downright silly!

I remember the Bike Verbier guides were singing the praises of slack head angles on trail bikes over ten years ago, and I think it was around then that Steve Wade was playing around with the 223 as an 'XC' bike. That led on to the Strange Alpine 5 - a 140mm bike with a 62-64 degree head angle in around 2007. Chainstays on the shortish side though, so clearly an evolutionary dead end and in no way ahead of its time..

Not unless it also had a weighty and complicated transmission system which cost more than most frames.

Still not sure on belts though - haven't folks on this here site tried belts and had them snap form debris like stones getting caught in the cog and snapping th belt?

I once snapped a chain for absolutely no obvious reason.

I like the idea of belt drive but the cost puts me off.

thepodge - Member

I once snapped a chain for absolutely no obvious reason.

Thing is, you can fix a chain with a quick link. To fix a belt you need a belt factory.

Any real facts on this or just internet hearsay? My understanding was they were on about $20k which is a good wage

Nope, no facts sadly! 😉 I will however eat many hats if any workers on the shop floor in Chinese carbon frame factories are on $20k/yr!!! Google says the average factory wage is $9k (a lot higher than some years ago). I've made composites and it's a bloody horrible job!

Would Nicolai like MTQGraham to do some longterm testing? 😉

Couldn't the gearbox be setup similarly, but with a chain and sprockets instead of the belt? Removes all of the belt drive worries.

Yeah, would prefer a chain, but you lose two niche points for that. Is it a wear thing? Is the sprocket very awkward to replace?

Northwind - Thing is, you can fix a chain with a quick link. To fix a belt you need a belt factory.

Just carry a new belt, they weigh less than a chain tool.

You can read what Max Commencal had to say about some Chinese carbon manufacturing here:
[url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/From-The-Top-Max-Commencal-interview-2013.html ]http://www.pinkbike.com/news/From-The-Top-Max-Commencal-interview-2013.html[/url]

Belts, mud and debris, cant see that working very well.

Glad he's against carbon, he cant get alu right

thepodge - Member

Just carry a new belt, they weigh less than a chain tool.

But cost twice as much as a chain, and the frame needs to be split to fit them, and the wheel removed, and then it all has to be retensioned.

Really not sure the benefits outweigh the disadvantages

If I'm spending around 7k on a bike, I can't see me worrying about the cost of a replacement belt.

The frame already has a lot of splits in it and has a sprung tensioner.

I bet I could change a belt on that within a similar amount of time as I could fix the chain.

Where you see problems I see an opportunity to experiment.

If I was confident that the belt never (or almost never) broke, then maybe.

But from what I've read of belts used off road, they break frequently. And at 60 quid a pop, I'm out.

Very much looking forward to riding a Geometron and maybe a GPI in January. Its been a while since I have beenso impressed by the though thats gone into a bike.

For those of you who want to try a modern super long geometry bike, without paying £200 to Mojo, perhaps get in touch and try out the Starling Cycles test bike.

See Facebook/StarlingCycles.

The new test bike has 780mm reach, 65° head angle and 1240mm wheelbase.

From what people have said about the Mojo, I think I've achieved the same thing with my bike. Stand on the pedals and get your weight central and it is super stable. I think it really helps with cornering as the bike drifts so predictably, really lets you push it into corners with super confidence. On the rough it's unbeatable.

The new test bike has 780mm reach, 65° head angle and 1240mm wheelbase.

Doh! Got my bar widths and reach mixed up...

480mm reach!

the bike drifts so predictably, really lets you push it into corners with super confidence. On the rough it's unbeatable

I don't have a catalogue, so nothing to cut and paste from.

All my own words. This is how it rides! I'm an engineer, not a wordsmith. Perhaps you can help me and suggest some alternatives?

Perhaps you should rein in your cynicism and have a look?

Edit..I did.I quite like that

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What's the difference apart from some arty farty photography?

See 😉

I haven't been on this forum for a while, I forgot about all the tits!

Starling needs a proper website as scrolling through loads of Facebook posts to find info has put me off investigating further a few times

There's Bustards and Cocks here aswell as Tits.Birdist.

There's hermaphro-gobshites too.

Starling Cycles website is on its way in the new year. The Facebook page has been good, but agreed, it's not easy to find information. My priority has been getting the bikes sorted, before the slick marketing.

Yes, there's a whole variety of different kinds of birds available on this forum. But there's also a very high proportion of Tits!

Perhaps steer this topic back onto the benefits of long slack geometry...

Do you know any other bikes apart from the Geomotron that have it?

I've made two bikes with super long geometry. One longer than the other. Also a number of shorter bikes with the same design.

My take is that the long bikes are great at high speed and in the rough. But, they also corner well as a I stated before. Low speed corners aren't that much harder.

Where I find they struggle is that the length makes them harder to manual and pick the bike up so easily. This makes it harder for instant line changes, hopping out of ruts etc. This reduction in pop makes them less suited to jumping.

So for racing, where all our speed matters, and quite often just hanging on for dear life to carry speed is important, than the long bike is great.

But if you're just hanging out in the woods with your mates, finding every little lip to pop off, then a shorter wheelbase is better.

Horses for courses, I suppose...

I like the look of the starling stuff and may well be in touch when the new site is up but a good chunk of the appeal of the geometron is the one to one suspension setup.

Dave Garland is working closely with me to set up the Storia shock. Not that it needs that much, it's a beast from the start!

So for racing, where all our speed matters, and quite often just hanging on for dear life to carry speed is important, than the long bike is great.

So why are most DH bikes considerably shorter than your findings?

Because there is no one perfect size of bike. There is a massive window of what works and most stuff is at one end, these bikes are at the other end.

So why are most DH bikes considerably shorter than your findings?

...for now.

For me the appeal of the Geometron is how involved Chris has been.

He may not be the best racer on the world, but no one can deny he knows his onions about setup.

Back on Geometron...a lot of testing has gone into the belt off road. Icthink they are very confident in it.

Regarding a Demo day/weekend one way or another at Inners or Glentress. Chris is up for that. Maybe February and maybe combine it with a Fox do.

More info as plans form. Can anyone interested ping me a mail. FOD was off spec but it would be nice to know if there are definitely interested parties with such a big trip.

And for the record, you don't have to pay £200 to Mojo. And if you do take that option, it's refundable against a frameset package or a bike.
...next year there may well be a bike that long on the DH WC circuit .....

All DH bikes are too small in my opinion especially for some of the big blokes who have to ride them. The most popular bikes are made by the biggest manufacturers and as much as they want you to believe that they're breaking the mould every year they're really shit scared of alienating anyone. So they'll continue to evolve a few mm at a time.

I love DH more than anything but the big companies have nothing that I want. I'm so bored of them. Not that they'll notice or care.

Have you seen the Pole bike on the front page?

Pole guys emailed Chris earlier this year....the web site has changed since I first looked at it and they are fully bought in, I think thats good news..

Sharkattack...might be some surprising bikes in the DH WC next year..or maybe not so surprising depending on your point of view.

Sharkattack...might be some surprising bikes in the DH WC next year..or maybe not so surprising depending on your point of view.

Anything you can share? I do love WC DH more than anything

Sharkattack, not at the moment. but I suspect early in the new year...

Ages ago, there was a Team Rumours post about Gwinn going to a German team. Everyone assumed YT.

I said the day I saw it, he is going to Nicolai!

Imagine if it happened!

I don't thinks that's gonna happen James! Benoit Coulanges is riding an effi gear Nicolai.
Maybe worth keeping one eye on what One Vision Global Racing get up to in 2016

Jack Reading and co. on raked out Ion 20's and Geometron's by any chance?

Good guess! Pretty close!

Chainline- I picked my bike up from Mojo on Wednesday, then had an uplift day at BPW on Thursday; fantastic! Thanks again for your help and input.

Riklegge awesome. Makes me very happy. I just love it when people find a bike that excites them and inspires them to ride and push themselves.

I'm looking forward to the next year, in fact I'm looking forward to just riding. Haven't been this excited to just ride, not worried about upgrades or changes or tweaks, just ride in a long time!

Some interesting stuff from Chris here:

[url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/porter-talks-geometron-29-prototype-2015.html ]http://www.pinkbike.com/news/porter-talks-geometron-29-prototype-2015.html[/url]

Still dosn't like 29er's!

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OK so I'm not a bike designer, but isn't it a bit odd that they used the same geometry for the 29er when most manufacturers steepen the front up a bit to achieve a similar feel to smaller wheeled bikes?

I own and enjoy both wheel sizes so I don't really have an axe to grind, but Chris Porter seems very good at justifying his prejudices with (possibly exaggerated) technical claims.

OK so I'm not a bike designer, but isn't it a bit odd that they used the same geometry for the 29er when most manufacturers steepen the front up a bit to achieve a similar feel to smaller wheeled bikes?

My understanding, which could well be wrong, is in this case the same head angle but different fork offset results in the same trail. Trail is more important that HA as its a combination and is what give the bike its "feel".

Basically everyone else has been over compensating and making 29ers worse than they should be.

chakaping - Member

OK so I'm not a bike designer, but isn't it a bit odd that they used the same geometry for the 29er when most manufacturers steepen the front up a bit to achieve a similar feel to smaller wheeled bikes?

TBH 29ers have been saddled with "make it more like a 26er" and "make it short" for years, it's only recently many manufacturers have dared to stop limiting themselves. IMO o'course.

I think it's true that they tend to ride "slacker" because of the differences in stability, trail etc but the number of long travel, 68 degree bikes still available is plain silly. I measured mine at 65.5 which is a bit more like it but I'd go slacker. (it feels a lot like my old 64 degree 26er but there's a lot more to it than head angles o'course) 29ers have been going slacker but so have little bikes so they're not really catching up, but at least they're getting over "make it small and steep"

My understanding, which could well be wrong, is in this case the same head angle but different fork offset results in the same trail. Trail is more important that HA as its a combination and is what give the bike its "feel".

This is interesting, I was under the impression from that BR feature that CP favoured a shorter offset for 29ers (contrary to accepted wisdom) - but combined with the longer frame obviously.

I'm on a genuinely long 29er with 68 degree HA and 46mm offset. Feels pretty damn good and not much like CP's criticisms of his own 29er.

chakaping - This is interesting, I was under the impression from that BR feature that CP favoured a shorter offset for 29ers (contrary to accepted wisdom) - but combined with the longer frame obviously.

I'm on a genuinely long 29er with 68 degree HA and 46mm offset. Feels pretty damn good and not much like CP's criticisms of his own 29er.

Yeah this confused me for a while and I'm still not sure I've got my head round it fully but (again, if I've got this right) reducing the offset makes sense on an existing frame because it increases trail but if you're starting from scratch, same HA (as 650) and bigger offset makes sense too.

Thanks Podge but I'm just more confused now.

I'm sure the Geometron is a bike you have to ride to "get", but other bike companies make amazing modern 29ers with geometry different to 650b - so if CP thinks his is shit, could that be a clue?

29ers have been saddled with "make it more like a 26er"

Yes and no. I think people just want bikes to be fast and fun. It's definitely achievable with 29in 'cos mine feels like a cross between a Tie Fighter and a steamroller.

I'm sure the Geometron is a bike you have to ride to "get", but other bike companies make amazing modern 29ers with geometry different to 650b - so if CP thinks his is shit, could that be a clue?

No. All the things he hates about 29ers apply to all 29ers. BB too low compared to axle, wheels have too much inertia (is that the right word?) to quickly flip from leaning one way to the other, i.e. left hand berm into right hand.

chakaping - Member
Thanks Podge but I'm just more confused now.

I'm sure the Geometron is a bike you have to ride to "get", but other bike companies make amazing modern 29ers with geometry different to 650b - so if CP thinks his is shit, could that be a clue?

CP does say he adapted the geometry for 29ers. To what extent I don't know, but sounds like he did make some changes.

Now, if they (Nicolai) could make it in Pinion version, just to prove that the 27.5er is better 😉

I think that's the point though, they made 29ers steep to make them feel like smaller wheels then they also made larger offset forks to make them feel like smaller wheels. These two cancelled each other out to some extent which is sort of what the BR article is getting at in the first bit.

Reading what hasn't been said in between what has been said in a few different reviews I think the only geo change between the two is a longer rear end to get a bigger wheel in and put your weight central but someone else will probably be able to confirm.

I look at these as devolved crossers where as the modern production bikes are evolved road bikes.

Team news - guess this is where it will turn up on track...

[url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/one-vision-global-racing-joins-forces-with-nicolai-bikes-for-2016.html ]http://www.pinkbike.com/news/one-vision-global-racing-joins-forces-with-nicolai-bikes-for-2016.html[/url]

Ok two things.
On the 29er. Trail is key. People asking all wanted the same super long/slack in 29er version. So that's what Chris built but yes, with the same trail which is what dictates how the bike feels in steering terms, I.e stability at the bars. The wheels still make a huge difference when leaned over and changing direction. It's physics. They are harder to change direction, period, even if they weighed the same the forces generated are greater.

So Chris made it to let those people try the same geo, no compromises. Chris uses a longer CS rear as per the 29er on his Geometron. one vision will too, With some longer options too, but it was only changed to allow the same travel on both bikes for a genuine comparison. the fork travel is also the same, but the 29 doesn't have the 180 and neg. Spring mods to keep the front at a sensible height.

It rides, from what Chris tells me, as I expected given I had a 65deg, long travel (160mm) custom Ion15 2 years ago. It's great in some places, less good in others (in comparison) rewards a strong aggressive rider, is harder to change direction on at speed and smashed through stuff rather than allowing a more dynamic riding style.

All of those attributes suit some riders, not others, hence why some have already bought it.

And yes, now it's official, that is where the Geometron will turn up on track. Bigger forks obviously (same as Chris uses) longer travel rear ( but the same as can be specified by any customer).

Some of the race tweaks/feedback may well find their way to production bikes in the future and are likely to be retro-fit table in some cases I expect. That's the case with current Nicolai's e.g you can buy a new rear end to change travel/leverage ration's/CS length etc as long as the front triangle can take it.

Exciting times. Nicolai has a history of supporting young developing riders too which is nice.

Chris/Mojo has Geometrons in stock again too.

Can't remember if I said but the 29 is custom order only and in Longest or even longerer sizes so tweaks can be made, it will be slightly more expensive on that basis to allow for the custom welding jig and design. Call Mojo for details and any test on the 29. Testing is on the same basis as already listed and it will find it's way to the demo days next year. Possibly starting in Scotland (tbc)

Given the length of the stays reduces the classic long travel 29 design problem of seat tube interface, and thinking back to Nicolais history of tunable travel and settings. I wonder how achievable a variable geometry frame for 650/29 wheels might be? It might sit in completley different handling and stability carachteristics between the two wheel sizes

And yes, now it's official, that is where the Geometron will turn up on track. Bigger forks obviously (same as Chris uses) [b]longer travel rear ( but the same as can be specified by any customer)[/b].

Do tell please 🙂

@tooFATtooRIDE if you want longer travel rear now you can request that from Chris, He will build a different length/stroke shock and to allow that, up to 175mm at the rear on the current bike.

The DH bike will be a little different I think in that the inherent travel will be longer as you'd expect.

Exciting times 🙂

I honestly can't wait to see what the DH bike looks like after a year of real world testing and development. They're not using the Effigear as I understand which is a shame as it's much more interesting in my mind.

In the meantime I think a trail bike would be more useful for personal use. I have about 85 quid saved up to put towards a Geometron.

My french is rubbish but I'm fairly sure effigear already run their own Nicolai bikes and dh race team.

Benoit Coulanges runs and Effigear Ion 20.

@HobNob, not sure I'd agree that 33lbs all up with pedals is a big fat tank. A guide friend of mine did an experiment the other year because various guests were all turning up with talk of their "28lb' AM/Trail bikes as per manufacturers weights or just what they thought.

Maybe (well, I know I am) cynical of people's claimed weights, but I can't see how it's going to be 33lbs build.

I see elsewhere the frame, drivetrain & shock is 8kg. Before I built my bike, I weighed the frame. With the power of Google I can total up the weight of an XX1 drivetrain, which together comes to 4.25kg, or an 8.25lbs difference.

The rest of my bike is built up pretty light, and comes in at ~28.5lbs, which is pretty realistic, given its spec. Somewhere ~4lbs is disappearing,

Either that, or I'm actually riding a carbon Reign. With carbon everywhere that weighs 24lbs, because my scales are wrong...

@hobnob It will be 15.5 kg with the pedals I'm very confident of the scales, mostly because all the parts have been weighed on +\-1g calibrated scales as it was built and then the total bike on different scales to X-ref.

Not sure why 4lbs is disappearing? The whole drivetrain is around 1.2kg heavier than a comparable XX1 build, I think (hard to measure since I can't validate the gearbox independently.

The frames are a touch heavier than standard due to length at 3.5kg for the M. Without shock.
I'll post up a spec when it's done this week.

Bike built.

Put together with 2.35 DD S/S T/L 2015 Nobby Nics to see how they work (735g each + 50g sealant in each tyre).
Have a pair of Spesh Storms ready if it gets really sloppy. Backup is my default tyre choice of Minion DHR II rear/ Magic Mary trail star front.

I like the idea of a Minion SS rear with either a Minion or MM front.

May well swop out the Float X for my X2 for demo's if requested. It does need some LSC (unlike my std bike) to make the pedalling feel as good as the std bike as there is less anti squat, also a touch more rebound as the rear wheel feels so light and the back super responsive.

Comes in at a hair under 15.4kg/33.8lb

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😯

Oh wow!!!

😀

Sorry a technical appraisal there.... 😉

Oh God I am supposed to be putting the money into a house but that is so tempting! 😯

Could I ask what rims you are using? There's weight to be saved there if they were replaced with carbon ones.

I am very interested to see how people get on with the shifter as that's the main thing that puts me off. I have never got on with grip shift and much prefer trigger shifters. I know you can get used to anything but if you're dropping that sort of money it should be exactly as you want it.