Anyone ridden the Mojo Nicolai yet?

Recent Pinkbike interview with Jared Graves about his SB5C enduro race bike:

"Even with the chunky wheels on it, I would take a guess that it's not more than 27 pounds, and to me, on high speed, rough stuff, it's still too light. I might even be looking at ways to add weight to my bike for racing, especially if there's more and more high-speed rough stuff. It just starts feeling really unstable if it's too light, so I don't know why people bother trying to save 20 grams here and there - it just seems ridiculous."

oh dear, Hebden does look a bit biblical at the weekend!

What's at Hebden? Full on demo? Good trails?

Worth making a weekend of it maybe?

To be blunt, Chris Porter isn't always right; sometimes he is, but sometimes he's just making it up. See: clutch mechs, 29ers can't brake and need £2500 wheels. And stuff where he's just contradicted himself, 650b being inferior to 26 inch until the day he decided to make a 650b bike when it suddenly became better, 29ers rolling over bumps better then suddenly not.

This doesn't mean he's wrong here but it does mean "Chris says so and explained it very well" is basically worthless, he's very good at making nonsense seem plausible. (he [i]still[/i] claims Neko Mulally's chainless run as evidence for his clutch mech theory- despite Neko saying it was nothing of the sort, frinstance)

Inspired by this I've just ordered an -2 deg Works headset for my medium Spitfire as an experiment. Combined with dropping the forks to 150mm that'll give the following geometry:

64.1 HA
74.6 SA
429mm reach
335mm BB height
441mm chainstay
1190mm wheelbase

He is willing to put his ideas to the test though.
He co/designed a dh bike with Orange with a massively forward positioned pivot point that Julien Camellini rode on the WC series (and choose to continue riding even after it cracked).
His dh bike with a sub 300mm bb height,150mm cranks and an integrated skid plate was'nt as successful (although it was bonkers to ride 🙂 )

He is willing to put his ideas to the test though.

You would though wouldn't you? I know I would. If I had the access that he has to hardware and knowledge and quality trails and riders to guinea pigs things on. I'd just sit there throwing shit at the wall until something stuck. It would be fun if nothing else.

I disagree with a lot of stuff he's come out with in the past. He definitely has a flair for the dramatic and states his opinions as fact. He clearly likes ruffling feathers. Ultimately though, I like his enthusiasm and I'm glad he can do what he does. Someone has to.

I really like the Geometron though, I think they've hit the nail on the head. I just need to get my leg over one but they're all bloody miles away.

Rorschach - Member
He is willing to put his ideas to the test though.
He co/designed a dh bike with Orange with a massively forward positioned pivot point that Julien Camellini rode on the WC series (and choose to continue riding even after it cracked).

I don't always agree with the things he comes out with but the fact he's willing to do these experiments is great. It's proper empirical testing, thinking "what if?", building it, testing it and pushing the boundaries.

The clutch mech thing may have a grain of truth in it (it makes some sense) but I'd imagine the effects are virtually negligible as seen by the wheel/swingarm but then I have no evidence for this. CP may have tested it (though off road testing is always going to be somewhat hard to do as there are so many variables). It is at least a constant and only in the compression direction so can easily be allowed for in the shot tune.
You can't fault his enthusiasm

I'll definitely have a Geometron when they come around 2nd hand and are a price I'm willing to pay for a frame. They any good with 26"?

His dh bike with a sub 300mm bb height,150mm cranks and an integrated skid plate wasn't as successful (although it was bonkers to ride )

Love the sound of this thing - where do I get one? (as if I need another DH bike I won't ever ride) 😆

When I saw Jedi earlier this year he mentioned that he leaves the clutch switched off on his mech because he doesn't like how it affects the feel of the suspension.

you can adjust the clutch.

I don't think Nicolai deliberately make there bikes a bit heavy for performance purposes. It's more that they prioritise durability and use aluminium.

Recent Pinkbike interview with Jared Graves about his SB5C enduro race bike:

"Even with the chunky wheels on it, I would take a guess that it's not more than 27 pounds, and to me, on high speed, rough stuff, it's still too light. I might even be looking at ways to add weight to my bike for racing, especially if there's more and more high-speed rough stuff. It just starts feeling really unstable if it's too light

It's more that they prioritise durability and use aluminium

The weight debate is interesting. I've ridden a lot of Nicolai's and a lot of hub and gearbox equipped bikes - a few points that haven't been made above -

- the location of the weight makes a difference. my Pinion Helius is heavier than the Helius I had with a Rohloff but it feels lighter. Obviously the front/back weight distribution has changed but that's actually the easiest to adapt to - I could still lift/drop the rear heavy bike.

- The suspension definitely feels significantly with a better balance of sprung to unsprung weight (rohloff to light back wheel with aluminium single sprocket) but that's far more about REMOVING weight from the wheel than adding it to the frame

- the location of weight makes a difference. The Pinion has a lot of weight around the bottom bracket - it's not just central, it's low. That's probably got a lot more to do with Chris Porter's lead weights than sprung/unsprung. Cornering on the Pinion is great but it does feel odd when you first get on it. The old Nicoai Nucleon with a Rohloff based gearbox accentuated the weight effects even more - a 40lb 160mm travel bike but low central weight meant it didn't feel like it (though it was far too heavy). Ride a bike with weight higher up (a big saddlepack for instance or a seatpost rack) and it's very different.

If not, Marcel at Nicolai has said to me that they will produce one for it.
That's a bold statement, if Pinion haven't managed to make one themselves, I'd assume that its because it cannot be done.

It's not that hard to make some sort of trigger shifter for a pull pull gearbox - someone's made one for Rohloff. The question is more whether it's an improvement. You're never going to get the light touch 'release' shifting of a conventional trigger shifter though. Electronic shifting would be the answer but difficult to get right in terms of sealing (especially for a small company with less R&D budget).
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Sharkattack. The trip to Hebden is a full demo, although without the wealth of spec changes you would have access to if you went to BPW with Chris and paid for it.

I am travelling to Hebden to meet a guy there and I'm taking a demo bike, set up for him, they are good trails, I have a few local friends that can guide and he will back to back his current bike, I will help with set up etc. So yes a full demo.

The plan is to offer this to people that are seriously interested in the bike as it's the only way to really know if it is for you. So I'm helping Chris out where I'm nearer than he is.

I've been involved with the evolution of the design and had one of my own for a while now, as mentioned having previously had custom iterations of similar bikes moving in this direction
I also did the original design for the Ion 15 with Nicolai, a 29er I still love, that makes the following look kinda high and steep. Chris now has a Geometron 29er, which Seb Stott rode recently..CP isn't keen, but that's not to say others may not prefer it.

I'm passionate about getting people on good bikes that are right for them, I'm not paid, I get to ride with different people on new trails and talk bikes, what's not to like for me.
For Chris I've provided feedback on how the bike can be improved and refined, that should see fruit in subsequent batches, I'd like to no I provide a bit of independent balance and objectivity and I have an open mind as to what's good or works, accepting that it's not the same for everyone, I don't agree with everything that Chris says by a long shot, but he has a lot of experience and knowledge in lots of relevant areas and he does love to experiment.

On the clutch mech thing. I can tell a significant difference in the performance of my suspension with my clutch off. I was sceptical at first, but I can. Strangely the way this bike encourages you to ride has lead me to be off the back brake more which in turn leads to a fairly quiet rear even clutchless.

To make the point re Chris though, I draw the line at removing the O ring seals for the suspension bearings to reduce stiction further 😉

Simon makes some good points about the gearbox too. The trigger development is driven by consumer demand not functionality. In many ways the twist shift complements some of the key advantages of a gearbox.(that doesn't rant to say I like it, though it's fine)

Sharkattack If you mail me, via my email in profile, perhaps a we can sort something out in the new year.

Chris now has a Geometron 29er

The podge, haha. It isa 29er GeoMetron!
t's as close to the geometry of the 27.5 version as makes practical sense. Chainstays slightly longer, rear travel the same, leverage curves the same, front travel slightly less (160mm) to maintain sensible front end heights (same as the 27.5) slightly less reach, but imperceptible, same trail achieved by more offset on 29er, angles & bb heights the same, so slacker than published anywhere

same trail achieved by more offset

I'd better get my saving shoes on as that geo with those wheels and a gearbox is frightenly close to my ideal bike

The reason 29ers need less offset than thought is because 27.5 bikes are tending to be as slack or slacker than the 26 bikes that preceded them, so the trail figure is much greater than the 26 bikes and than you're getting with most 29ers due to their steeper head angle and greater offset.

Basically a 29" wheel isn't sufficiently larger than a 27.5 to justify such a difference in head angle, whilst the difference between 29 and 26 did make the numbers add up.

I had a day with CP and Chainline at the demo day at the Forrest of Dean and rode the Mojo geometron Medium (longer) I am 5'10, it was outrageous, for my height going from a 442 reach to 502 was staggeringly good. The reach is created by steep seat geometry, at my height it pushes the front of the bike 40 mm forward, but cockpit remains same size. Coupled with a slack 62 head angle, it flies downhill giving huge confidence. Uphill no problem as the long front centre and the steep seat angle combat any front end wandering.
And Yes you can wheelie it and manual it !! Kids can even manual beach cruisers, so its probably more technique than bike geometry!!
Until you ride one, to understand the combination of all the features, you can spend as much time on the web as you like, BUT it will not give you the full flavour of this bike!!

Chainline - more offset on 29er

chiefgrooveguru - 29ers need less offset

I'm confused

To me there are 2 issues with the £200 demo.

1. Why do you need a mechaninc for a demo, is it really that sensitive to set up. If it is are you going to need a mechanic to reset it every time the seasons change and your body and kit weight changes.

2. Presumably the uplift is because it is a downhill bike and excels in that department, but its supposed to be an all mountain / enduro bike so should be capable of going uphill and cope with tight twisty singletrack, not just purpose built downhill tracks.

I must admit Im a bit skeptical about the whole bike. If that much length was the answer then why arent the pro DH riders on bikes that long?

More offset on a 29 fork reduces the trail figure to speed up the steering for a given head angle hence why offset typically increases on forks as they go from 26" to 27.5 (typically 42-44mm) to 29" wheels (typically 46-51mm) unless you have a Jones (I do) where 55mm is employed to speed things up further, or on the slacker plus model 85mm to counteract the 67.5 HA on that.

Having said that not everyone prefers more offset and steering is affected by bar width and stem length

I am using a short offset fork on my Geometron with a 26" fork crown/upper on 27.5 lowers. And a 30mm stem. Typically 35mm stem is used with the standard 27.5 offset fork on a Geometron depending on user preference.

I used a 46mm Offset fork on my 65.5deg 29er Ion 15 as I preferred the steering to the 51mm (close to the Gary a fisher G2 geo.)

chrismac - Member

1. Why do you need a mechaninc for a demo, is it really that sensitive to set up. If it is are you going to need a mechanic to reset it every time the seasons change and your body and kit weight changes.

It's pretty steep but if the bike rides differently to what you're used to, getting it set up right yourself on a demo day could be hard. And the last thing he needs is people screwing up the setup then slating it. Quite a few demos I've done have been ruined by some defect or inability to get the bike to work as it should. (Orange and their cheap shit tyres come to mind)

TBH I think it's possibly also a canny bit of marketing but, there's some point to it imo, I'm not bad at spanners but when I hop on a very different bike it takes me a while to get it working.

2. Presumably the uplift is because it is a downhill bike and excels in that department, but its supposed to be an all mountain / enduro bike so should be capable of going uphill and cope with tight twisty singletrack, not just purpose built downhill tracks.

BPW isn't really that sort of venue. There's not much really twisty (probably a design decision, stravaists would ruin anything like that) but it's very varied and I reckon best on a big #enduro bike not a dh bike. I can't think of many better places to test a big bike like this, innerleithen would be better but doesn't quite have the variety... Pila or La Thuile 😆

So podge no need to be confused.

To reach the same trail figure, IF that is what is desired, more offset is required with bigger wheels. What Chris's experiments show, as this whole bike does, is the sum of the angles/parts is far more important than focussing on one.

In the old days 29ers had steeper head angles to achieve the same effect but with other disadvantages hence why the industry has arrived at different offsets.

Chris gives customers the options to change the offset. However I'm not sure he can do that with the 29 if using a 36 fork. It's possible on the 27.5 because the 26" fork uppers can be used.

Chrismac, see different posts about the reasoning behind the test day. The ones I'm doing aren't £200 and Chris doesn't do that if you want to just ride a bike with suspension set up for you in terms of weight. Damping is also easy...he will ride with the customer, as will I and assist with set up.

The mechanic and BPW day is a different level.

Chris will discuss your requirements objectives. Uplift is provided because it maximises time riding the bike doing what we all want to no?

He will change bar widths, stem lengths, shock lengths, fork offsets, fork heights, tyres, wheels...whatever you want on that day assuming you've discussed it beforehand and work with you to set the bike up exactly as you want, doing back to back runs. If you buy the bike, the cost comes off the price.
He also arrives with three different bike sizes to try...you just don't get that anywhere else. So you can still be riding a different bike whilst the mechanic is setting up an alternative...

Even turning up with three bikes to try and spending a day or morning riding with someone is a big commitment. You don't get that at a normal demo. They don't tune the suspension, progression for you before you ride the thing based on a discussion of your riding, what you want out of the bike, change the bars, stem etc to suit you.

Chris does do that, whether I'm doing the demo with someone for him or he himself comes along.

27.5 is much much closer to 26". It's a material difference to 29er. 25mm increase 26 to 27.5 in dia. Vs 38mm 27.5 to 29

26" 559mm

27.5 584mm

29 622mm

Chainline, would you mind responding to few emails I sent you recently please?

Will do tooFATtoRIDE. I only got one? I spoke to Vincent and he assured me he was getting back to you. But they have been tied up with 2016 catalogue.

ahwiles - Member

Stevet1 - Member
I'm still following this thread as I am honestly interested in how the longer TT /slacker head angle stuff works out.

don't forget the longer chainstays.

everyone always forgets the longer chainstays.

The Chainstays are 445mm which is only 3mm's more than a Yeti SB6c (442mm). Infact the top tube length of a Longer (640mm) is only 8mm more than a that of a large Yeti SB6c (632mm).

It's only reach, seat tube angle and headtube angle (this being the main contributer to the longer overall length) that are much more extreme than other bikes with modern geometry.
It's the combination of these measurement's that lead to the different feel when ridinig the bike. The Seat tube works really really well, and centers you in a way that stops the front from wandering when climbing.

Anyhow, just wanted to point out that some aspects of the geometry aren't a crazy as some people think.

It's a bike that needs to be ridden to see if it suits your style.
As such I plan on taking them up on their paid demo in the new year, so I can test out some different settings and frame sizes to see if it could be the bike for me. (then if I did buy it, I'd know what settings etc worked for me. Regardless of bike, I'll definitely be getting myself a Fox X2, as it was great)

gaz552, very true on the numbers, albeit the TT of 640mm is the M. The Yeti has unfashionably long chainstays and they have always made a longer bike, longer this year in fact, like almost all manufacturers. but the Orange Alpine is similar, longer chainstays, partly due to design, and longer front now.

I don't think just pushing the TT out alone works, its the HA and SA that are key as you say. The HA is 3 degrees slacker and the SA 4.5 degrees steeper, leading to a 60mm longer reach.

That HA is what allows you to drive the front with more forgiveness at the limit, where a front wheel slide becomes a warning to either get more weight over the front or not push harder rather than a crash.

I'd like a pound for everyone that has sat on the bikes and said' it feels normal' 🙂
Things get interesting when you stand as you say, the body position is different, your position relative to the bike is different.

I spoke to Chris today to get some clarity on the the demo position for the Geometron and its spin offs, the GPI and the 29er for UK Riders, as it seems to cause some debate.

There are likely to be some more demo days next year with Nicolai staff in attendance again, like the Forest of Dean day, with the full range of Nicolai bikes and in a addition dedicated Mojo/Fox Geometron demo days with Geometrons/Nicolai GPI options and maybe the odd special project…

If anyone is interested in a Demo ride in the meantime the following options are available in 2016. The range of bikes/frame sets with the GeoMetron geometry is now
Derailleur equipped Mojo/Nicolai 27.5 GeoMetron in S/M/L (Long/Longer/Longest) - usually available from stock
Derailleur equipped Mojo/Nicolai 29 GeoMetron in L (Longest) - available to order only - only available in Size L(Longest/custom)
Nicolai GPI – Pinion gearbox, Gates Belt Drive equipped Geometron geometry/suspension – available in S/M/L (Long/Longer/Longest) - available to order only (custom possible)

Bikes available for demo in 2016 are;

All sizes of Mojo/Nicolai Geometron 27.5, S(Long) M(longer) L(Longest),
M(Longer) Nicolai GPI (Pinion Geometron),
L(Longest) Geometron 29
Demo Options are;

[b][u]Option 1 -[/u] [/b]
A full day at Bike Park Wales, with Chris Porter and or a Mojo setup technician, bike size of your choice/bars/stems/suspension/wheel/tyre options/setups available depending on preferences/options discussed before the day.
The day(s) will be uplifted and focussed on getting exactly the right set up for you. This day(s) is aimed at maximum time on the bike. Riding it is the only way to appreciate the sum of the parts and numbers!
Cost: £200, refundable against a full bike or frame package purchase.

[b]Option 2[/b]
A ride/day with Chris Porter and or Mojo technician on Mojo local or nearby trails e.g. Forest of Dean This day is without all of the varied setup options offered by the uplifted day at Bike Park Wales, and is likely to involve pedalling up. The demo bike will be sized for you, it may be possible to have more than one size available if you are unsure/borderline (except GPI and 29), and it will be set up for your weight/height/style based on pre-discussion. Setup support during the ride.
Cost: £0 but coffee and a cake might not go amiss 😉

[b]Option 3[/b]
A ride/day with either Chris Porter or a Mojo nominated rider with good experience and knowledge of the bike on your local or nominated trails, within reason and the UK, on a demo bike sized for you and set up in terms of suspension based on pre-discussion. Setup support during the ride. Again likely to involve pedalling.
Cost: £to be agreed -If significant travel/fuel/other costs are involved then some (non-refundable) charge will have to be made since its a fair bit of work to make happen.
Timing will depend on location and mutual schedules.

Hope thats a bit clearer on the options/costs etc.

Tempted by the 29er and option three

Also interested in a pic of the belt drive option considering gates don't recommend using a tensioner and the standard geometron suspension design would require one.

Here:

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[img] [/img]

Thanks for that, very interesting

More here - Nicolai sell that as the Ion GPI on their site - not sure how/if it differs from the Geometron - it does have Fox suspension custom tuned by Mojo.

http://shop.nicolai.net/index.php/ion-gpi-pro.html?___store=en&___from_store=de

Ah - same Geo, it seems

[i]

"It is the first bike worldwide with the unique combination of the GEOMETRON Enduro geometry, the Pinion gearbox and the maintenance free Gates Carbon Drive belt drive."

If I hadn't just moved house you'd have had a definite customer in me....the setup day at BPW really appeals and not just for the demo of a Geometron, I reckon it'd be an invaluable day with regards bike fit, suspension setup etc and most people would come away understanding a lot more about their bike whether they then bought a Geometron or not.

Hopefully I'll have some spare pennies in 2016 at some point, how much is the frame set again?

Std frameset is £2100 with Float x2

£2900 frame/fork/headset + bearing service, shock service and aftercare (damage) included.

There are options to add or remove the various upgrades. Can be discussed if you call Mojo.

Honourable George. The GPI isn't quite the same as the GeoMetron geo as std, but if bought through Chris it will be and the one we will have for demo will be. The UK bikes are 1 deg slacker.

I'm really surprised at the price for the complete ION GPI, that seems at least £1k less than I'd expect with a pinion gearbox.

Don't say things like that, some of us would like to afford one... one day

One thinks one could potentially do better than that with an improved spec Solamanda

Chainline - or anyone else….

Option 3 - are demos in Scotland on the radar at all?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most of you won't benefit from a 63/62 degree head angle bike with a 1300mm wheelbase and ridiculous reach numbers.

Because they take a much more physically demanding style of riding to get the most out of, something that is great for pros on steep courses but not so much weekend warriors. These bikes do not work well with the turn and carve style of riding that 95% of hobby riders employ, you have to phsyically and conciously load up the front and ride the front wheel allowing the rear to drift around the corner like a rally car. Downhill bikes of race pedigree take a huge amount of effort to get the most out of.

It's a style that's also particually well suited to trail erosion. There is also not getting away from the fact that not all trails are well suited to these kinds of bikes, my old mans MK2 Nomad was actually better at Coed-Y-Brenin than my 2015 Giant Reign.