i should imagine once manufacturers have milked the whole 'short chainstays, conservative head angles' thing to death you'll see Porter's Geometron appear in various guises as the next big thing from the main manufacturers.
really? Ok the geometron is the slackdaddy right now, but mondraker, kona, banshee, SC newmad, and all the nuskool enduro bikes are selling on the slack HA, long front centre+ tiny stem,wide bars, steep SA etc for the last few years
Short chainstays are crap, unless you're a slopestyle rider throwing whips and need that 'in the air' maneuverability then most of us would benefit from more stability on the trail not less from a stupidly short twitchy rear end that often limits tyre choice too!
and im yet to ride a bike with a twitchy rear end (that didnt have the wrong tyres on!), even my Cowan with tiny chainstays (and terrible tyre clearance!) is great to ride, I got a large and longer forks so its longer and slacker too and that helps with stability and confidence
obviously not ridden the geometron, but longer stays ime = less fun on berms, less manouverability, harder to jump, if you are riding long flat out DH straights maybe they are better, Id have to ride one and see, my hardtail has sliding dropouts but id need a full suss to experiment on and see if it was worth it
'Long' Chainstays = normal chainstays 2 years ago.
the nuskool enduro bikes are 2.5-4 degrees steeper than a geometron depending on model. That is a big difference and with significant differences in reach, even for the Mondrakers
For example the comparing equivalent sizes in terms of recommended rider size, so M Geometron, a M Nomad is
The XL size is 5mm shorter TT than a M G'Tron, 50mm shorter overall, 45mm shorter reach, 3.5 degrees steeper HA, 3 degrees slacker SA. So I would still find it cramped based on what I'm used to.
Thats not to say it doesn't work brilliantly for others, that it's wrong or anything or that there aren't people that could ride it much faster than I ever can my G'tron, there are, but that for me the G'tron makes sense and feels right and means I get the best out of what I can do.
In term of lower slacker they also are more than previously..its just that the G'tron, in the words of Pinkbike, has 'Deviant' geometry! Which I suppose is literally true even if that's not what they meant. Maybe they should have checked their reviewers glowing comments before using that in answer to a question that clearly came from someone who read the review!
I agree the geometron has jumped a few degrees on ha and cm on reach over the others, but its been a progression, 1/2 a degree a year or so on head angle etc
I'd be very keen to have a go on one and interested to see if the top EWS racers start using the Porteresque geometry.
I'm just not as cynical as deviant that the manufacturers are trying to con us with substandard bikes!
I don't think the manufacturers are trying to con us - I just think it's hard to sell bikes which have radically different geometry to what most are used to because it can take quite a while to adapt to and get the best out of a bike which handles very differently to what you've been riding for a while.
I'm noticing this myself, trying to switch between a pretty long slack low full-sus and a shorter steeper taller hardtail. Even though I've spent about twice as many hours on the hardtail in total, in the last year most of my riding has been on the full-sus and when I get on the hardtail it feels so nervous and unstable in comparison. But go back a few years and that hardtail was pretty similar geometry to many all-mountain full-sus bikes!
Also, I think there's a general misconception that slack head angles don't climb well when it's slack SEAT angles that are the real issue. Slack head angles can wander a bit at lower speed but with the right geometry to keep the front weighted it isn't a problem and more than made up for on the way back down.
Also, I think there's a general misconception that slack head angles don't climb well when it's slack SEAT angles that are the real issue. Slack head angles can wander a bit at lower speed but with the right geometry to keep the front weighted it isn't a problem and more than made up for on the way back down.
Get and inline post or flip it around, slam your seat forward or even swap out to one that puts you further forward. These are all things 99% of riders havnt bothered to do so why are we all drooling over steep seat angle frames?
Even with a forward seating position a slack head-angle bike still handles like a pig uphill. Its just more efficient and easier as it puts you in a better position relative to the pedals, ie. similar relative position you would have on a normal bike on flat trails.
The geomotron is designed to winch up steep access roads, not ride technical uphill trails. There is no shame in it, it has a purpose and its very good at it.
Get and inline post or flip it around, slam your seat forward or even swap out to one that puts you further forward. These are all things 99% of riders havnt bothered to do so why are we all drooling over steep seat angle frames?
Except that I have inline dropper posts on both my full-sus and my hardtail, the former has a much slacker head angle but a much steeper seat angle, and goes up hills better. There's only so much adjustment at the saddle rails and most dropper posts are inline so you can't reverse the layback.
I have to disagree about the climbing, it rides up technical trails extremely well. As usual I hope you've ridden one to back up the assertion. The GPI gearbox version even better uphill.
The length of the rear and central position provide excellent traction and control since the rear is weighted but the front not light. It flat out climbs well with no excuses.
I'm running a DH shock with no additional compression High or Low over the 'internal' settings and I get almost no movement when pedalling due to the careful matching of climbing gear ratio to anti squat characteristics and point of sag.
I've done a lot of tech climbing on it now in Spain and the UK on slippy, rocky, rooty and dry, dusty rocky terrain with others on more conventional AM bikes; Bromads galore, Orange, Ibis and it's just as good and better when it gets really really steep as you can stay central to get rear traction much more easily without the lift.
This made me smile, one of the PB comments to a question about Geometrons (where 'deviant' geometry came from)
[i]"Thing is, for the geometron to come into its own, you would want climbing to descending ratio to be at least 10 to 1. It's a bike that would be wasted on anything other than double black diamond, beyond diagonal gnar."[/i]
I don't think slack head angles make for crap climbing. Not been lucky enough to try a Geometron, but my 2012 Orange Alpine has a 64* HA and the front doesn't wander. I run the saddle most of the way forward and the chai stays are 435mm long and a 1200mm wheelbase. It has no problems on tech climbs or tight switchbacks. It's running coil forks and shock so no lock out and minimal LS compression.
I think the Geometron is a step in the right direction, and have seen a few out on the trails and they don't seem to struggle on either the rough natural stuff or trail centres.
Tom KP
I'm planning on pushing my sliding rear dropouts all the way out after looking into this frame, I'll not gain much but it makes sense
So has anyone attended the Nicolai demo day at FOD?
Yep, it was pretty interesting. I'm now wondering if I can sell my DH and enduro bikes to fund a geometron.
riklegge - Member
Yep, it was pretty interesting. I'm now wondering if I can sell my DH and enduro bikes to fund a geometron.
Sounds like it was a pretty positive ride on the bike then.
Might try to get myself down there today.
What did you need for the demo? Just some form of ID?
Sorry for the late reply gaz552. I booked in advance with mojo, but I don't think this was necessary, it wasn't completely booked out. I didn't even need ID, and one of the Mojo crew (usually Chris I believe) rides with you to check setup. Great fun, and the bike rocks.
Decided to head down to FoD for a ride today and see if I could get a run on a geometron. Was speaking to Chris and he had me sit on the medium (longer) size bike (for reference I'm about 5' 10") and actually it really doesn't feel crazy long on the reach or anything, it just felt comfortable. Someone else was coming to take it out after that so I came back a hour or so later and got to ride it along with Chris and some of the nicolai guys.
First thing, pedalling up hill is great. The only thing holding it back was my fitness and a chest infection that won't go away.
On the way down, over the first set of table tops first thing I noticed was that it is long but it keeps you very centered and it felt different but good different.
After the first section we headed down sheepskull (trail conditions were crap it was raining), once again hopping over the first sets of roots the bike felt longer than I'm used to, but even with the poor conditions I was able to start pushing it over whatever I wanted and cornering was great.
From sheepskull we then headed down skirun (it's quite rocky with some rooty bits), and the length of the bike was started to no longer be noticeable and I was able to just get on with looking ahead and choosing lines.
So all in all, the bike feels way better than you'd expect it to, and the suspension was fantastic, at no point did I feel pitched and I didn't find myself lacking front end grip either.
I had finally decided to go for a large transition patrol, but that test ride even though it was brief and trail conditions were crap was very encouraging.
Thanks to Chris and the guys for the test ride and the chat and advice while heading up and down the trails.
Think he's a little (hopelessly) optimistic on the price.
I'd be intrigued to try one - my experience of FG with Mondraker's wasn't favourable, but things evolve.
More so, I'd like to see how a ~4kg frame w/X2 shock somehow comes out lighter as a full build than a 2.6kg frame & shock, covered in carbon & light bits 😉
Hob Nob - Member
Think he's a little (hopelessly) optimistic on the price.
I'd be intrigued to try one - my experience of FG with Mondraker's wasn't favourable, but things evolve.
More so, I'd like to see how a ~4kg frame w/X2 shock somehow comes out lighter as a full build than a 2.6kg frame & shock, covered in carbon & light bits
Without question it feels different, but it seemed like I was getting used to it very quickly. I found body position wise it felt more like riding my motocross bike, so maybe that helped.
No idea what the weight of the bike was but it didn't feel at all heavy when riding it, I imagine I'd need to lift it side by side with one of it's carbon rivals to see how much heavier it is.
On a side note, the X2 worked great to the point of not noticing it, and the XTR 11 speed feels really nice.
That's odd, my post was in reply to a message that's gone missing. There was someone linking to a bike for sale on EBay that was ~£4K.
The X2 is a great shock though, agree on that!
Noticed that too Hob Nob. Maybe a moderator deemed it as spam or something.
5'10 on a medium today , cockpit same as my medium Five in terms of length but massive increase in wheel base and reach.
Suspension set up was incredible and consequently grip was staggering.
The most amazing thing was, you just rode it, and never really thought about the bike!! It just did everything well.
One hell of a bike, deviant geometry .......hell yeah !!and it works.
Get out there and try one, the future is here already!!
Thanks to everyone that turned up. Despite pretty dreadful weather it was busy both days. For both Chris and Nicolai.
I don't work for either but help out due to a technical background and a long association and involvement in feedback so its good to be able to talk to people from an (average) riders perspective.
Interesting to see some serious racers with access to their equipment come along, ride the geometron and, get back post ride with a massive smile and go away wondering how they could make it happen.
A few Enduro 29 riders along too..
I was chatting to the Nicolai guys about their factory enduro rider Daniel, he didn't want to change bikes mid season so has been riding his std bike. Now the season is over he tested the Geometron geometry back to back and on ride 1 found himself 17secs faster on a single run....
I don't race now, but I think it gives an indication of the confidence and feedback you get to push further than you might otherwise.
I'd agree with catvet's descripotion, well put, you forget about the bike and just focus on the trail, very liberating.
Chainlin: if you are who I think you are, thanks for the chat after I gave it a test ride. Also did ever get that head light working?
I too can vouch for the fact that, you just concentrate on picking a better line. you don't have time to worry about if your about to loose grip etc. Because you wont you wont!!!
Thanks Paul, I am and I did fix the headlight! For a 10min job it took about 4 hours due to chatting.
I think there will be a lot more demo days. it's clearly a bike that needs to be ridden to make a any kind of decision and it's character not judged on paper.
It doesn't really matter if someone doesn't like it or think it's for them. If they go away able to articulate to others a real experience of riding it and (hopefully) dispel the myths of it being only a DH bike or that it won't go around tight corners, won't pedal well etc. it's worth it.
Also its possible to chat about the options, the fact you can choose to configure it with less travel if you want or try it with super light wheels to see if it works for you like that before committing.
Chainline,
I hope you dont mind, I have dropped you an email to the account in your profile.
Regards
James
No problem.
Chainline, it's Rik who was chatting to you first thing on Saturday. Thanks for the heads up about the event and your time on Sat. Thought you might be interested to know I've placed my order!
I think for me, I'm going to need to go for a proper demo on it ideally in drier conditions so I can really get handle on how the bike feels in more familiar conditions.
Actually though, thinking about it now, in those terrible conditions the unfamiliar geometron was much less work/more predictable than my own bike which I'd been riding there for several hours before my test ride.
Would be god to get a Scottish demo day opportunity - long way to go for a demo even if it is much more technical/rigorous than the normal process.
So has ridden the following/uprising as well as a geometron ?
Some testing by the dirt lads recently put up on Instagram...
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Still want one tho! 😉
How did the whyte do in the dirt test?
Rik, excellent, You wont regret it.
I could wade in on this, especially on plus tyres having used them on various bikes for a while but I won't. It's too easy.
Suffice to say all such tests are flawed clickbait and rolls faster yet grips better defies the laws of physics. They foster mtb tribalism, which the community is so good at. I assume that the next full fat bike full suss will do that even more? Or will it be too much...just like 29ers were when they came out...
Ride some bikes, pick one that you love and suits you and makes you feel good, ride it a lot. When it no longer makes you feel good and want to ride it, find another one...
Interesting change to Dirt Instagram post. Name changed to Nicolai tailor made frame, GeoMetron name removed. I understand they had a frame made to mimic a long Sanction but lower/slacker various changes and it didn't quite work as hoped.....
I didn't think the Geometron had been handed out for such a test...
Chainline - the 27.5 Ion, they now offer a "short seat tube" option, so you can size up, but have the same seat tube length. Have you ridden that?
Have 26" Ion I love, am always tempted to get the bigger wheels, and keep mulling over that extra reach option
honourablegeorge. Kinda, its like my previous version of the Ion, my custom. But the 'short seat tube' is just a removal of the gussets and a cut off extension. I dropped the whole top tube and made the ETT longer too. Other than that my last one was a std Ion 650b
lowering the TT and keeping gussets is still custom.
I'd be tempted to change to geometron linkage lever if I was going custom but wanted the rest of the Ion to be standard to improve pedalling without a platform and to make it a bit more progressive to match an air shock. unless you were going coil of course in which case the current curve is bonza. Well the current curve is bonza but I like the firmer platform at sag point offered by the Gtron linkage.
Yeah - I'm not sure the budget would stretch to custom, so the short seat tube was attractive for just 100 Euro, versus 700 for custom. Didn't realise it involved removing the gussets - I quite like them, with the detailing. Do you have a pic, by any chance?
Didn't know the linkage could be changed, that's interesting. Bt if it involves the full custom upcharge, it's probably not for me.
29 and gearbox versions now as well. That should interest more people.
If I have the money available when the time comes to retire my current bike the Geometron is on my list of replacements. But then I guess it'll depend how my riding has evolved and changed by then (I might have retired to a fat bike by then).
Tom Kp
29er not available. Built only for a purpose at the moment, to show that the same geo doesn't really transfer over directly but it may backfire with 29er fans loving it......
Gearbox has been available for a little while. I may get one to make available as a demo bike as an excuse!
FWIW I've had a 29er Ion15 since the start of the year (replaced a 26" Helius AM) and it is faultless.
The only thing that holds me back is me, in terms of bottle, and skills both on the bike and (to lesser extent) setting up.
It's light, climbs well, almost never needing the shock to be locked out, and it descends ridiculously well.
Way out of my price range and even if I could afford it I doubt a mincer like me would really benefit but I'd love to demo the 29er
Thanks digga 😉 The Ion15 was my baby, joint design with me and Marcel. and I agree, still one of my favourite bikes.
I actually preferred my proto with slightly longer chainstays, but thats being picky. it's a stunning all round bike.
I keep telling myself that the longer I suffer and persevere on my steel hardtail, the tricker and more expensive I can go when I get back on a modern bike.
I was just a bit disillusioned with posh, off the shelf superbikes that promise the world, get amazing reviews, then turn out to be flawed and underwhelming. Also I didn't really want to look at any new bikes until the industry decided what a mountain bike actually is again.
I feel like the Geometron kind of bypasses a lot of the industry B.S.
If I can get to a demo day I will make the effort but I'm in the northeast so FOD is a mission.
sharkattack, I think Chris may well do some more Demo days after the success of the FoD, particularly oop North. I too would like to see that.
In the mean time, I've been thinking how demo's can be made more available and for people to ride on terrain they are familiar with but in a cost effective manner for all concerned.
I've generally offered my bike, if the right size, and to visit but obviously thats a bit dependent on my life/schedule since I've kids and a day job. Clearly it also costs me money, the flip side is meeting new people and riding new places and the enjoyment of seeing and helping someone enhance their riding experience. It also helps to get feedback.
It's been a good while since I've visited and ridden Dalby....
I'm not sure the industry will decide, its gone bonkers again with standards and tyre sizes..At least, within reason you can retrofit changes to a Nic and replace with new parts e.g. axle standards, dropouts, levers and rear end. or even front triangle in some cases.
@chainline do you know anything about the Argon Semi Fat proto with the same geometry?
That has me intrigued.
