<span style=”caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%;”>they would be charged and prosecuted for their hateful language/actions
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Agreed, but I’m not seeing any of that on this thread. If a thread is started about this subject then it is to be expected that view and opinions on both sides are aired, and as long as that’s done respectfully then I don’t see the issue

just because someone thinks it doesn’t make for fair competition doesn’t make them a transphobe.

if alternate opinions aren’t welcome I suggest that threads started on this topic should be banned.

edit..what on earth is going on with the quote function on this site.!!

if alternate opinions aren’t welcome I suggest that threads started on this topic should be banned.

If a forum member had started this thread (or one of an opposing view) it would have been closed in double-quick time.

I support sporting categories that exclude.

I support categories that exclude on the basis of ability, so that disabled athletes can be included in sport.

I support categories that exclude on the basis of age, so that youth and senior athletes can be included in sport.

I support categories that exclude on the basis of sex, so that women can be included in sport.

Everyone here supports exclusion too. It’s simply a debate about whether the women’s category should exclude on the basis of sex or on the basis of gender identity.

Sex matters in sports, folks. That’s why we have women’s categories.

Nailed it. If we support separate categories for differently abled people then it’s plainly obvious to me that separate categories for trans athletes are also required. You maximise inclusion through the process of exclusion.

Like many I’ve been pondering this for quite a while, expressed my views, and probably altered them a bit as the whole concept matured. We are clearly a long way from resolved however.

Where I have come to is that both ‘sides’ could do with a bit more understanding and cooperation.

1. Sports and their governing bodies – people ‘playing’ or doing their sport at a recreational level is a great thing – great for the popularity of the sport you care about but far more importantly great for the participants overall well being. Making your sport welcoming and accessible for anyone of any gender at any level so they can do it recreationally should be the primary aim of every governing body – more important than elite sports. Very easy for a sport like cycling – buy bike, then go ride. Job jobbed. No need for it to be a race and start dividing participants up – just a road or a track and crack on. Do it solo, do it with friends or clubmates. Do it for the scenery, do it for the social aspect or do it to destroy yourself physically – it’s all good. Probably a lot harder for sports where doing it by necessity involves competition – you need someone to play and winning or losing is inherent to participation. But find a way – it’s your job. Too many sports (and cycling pretty much falls into this) have the narrative that “once you are competent, you can turn it into a competition”. That where I ended up with cycling. It’s bollox – yes competition is one way forwards, but how about a default mindset change – why do we need to make it about competition at all?

2. The transgender participants – If we are allowed to talk in collectives, I’m coming to the conclusion that there is a lot of egocentric thinking going on – it’s all about them as far as some of them are concerned. What can they do, what are they entitled to do or are being deprived of. I think in the big scheme of things too much of a shit is being given. I sit here as a man, and I’m lucky in that I’ve never gone through the anxiety of questioning it. But if I did go through that momentous change being able to participate in competitive sport would be way way way down on my list of priorities of what would most important to me going forward. Maybe it’s easier to be objective because it’s not about me; but I could totally see that some would question any unfair advantage I might have from my past history. They might not be right – hell, as a science orientated person I’d probably want to be a research subject in some research to help further the understanding. But whatever, I would not be stamping my feet and making it about me – I wouldn’t want it in my head. With so much going on in my life and so many many alternative things I could be doing in my life I just don’t think I’d be going there. I’d probably be riding a bike or paddling a kayak to view the scenery, have social time or beast myself….just like I do right now.

So to conclude – governing bodies need to make access for all to recreationally participate a much higher priority than it does, trans wannabe competitors need to get some perspective, and we all need to chill and stop making competition outside of our professional lives such a biggie – we’d all be better off for it.

Sidenote – if we are talking professional participation….someone with better statistical analysis might be able to help…what proportion of the population are predisposed to elite level sporting performance – one in a thousand, one in 10 thousand? And what proportion of people born biologically male are considering a gender change – surely a similarly tiny number. If the distribution was even between the two groupings the intersection between the two must be microscopic – one in a million, 10 million of the population maybe. Please lets not have all policy dictated to make judgments for this tiny group when getting everyone enjoying life and just plain participating, regardless of gender is so much more important.

Sidenote to the sidenote – if I was a male athlete and was very much a mediocre also-ran in terms of performance who then changed gender to female and found I was suddenly capable of elite performance I might be having a word with myself about why that be. If I was still an also ran I probably would be kicking off about wanting to carry on participating for wellbeing reasons because I’m still no threat to the medal tables or taking someonelse’s funding.

if I did go through that momentous change being able to participate in competitive sport would be way way way down on my list of priorities of what would most important to me going forward.

Anyone undertaking a F-M transition will have had to face this issue already as there are few sports where they’d expect to remain competitive, but those aren’t the transgender voices we all hear.

@scotroutes

I chose my words carefully by using woman and not female.

Unfortunately, you can choose those words as carefully as you like – woman and female can be used to describe either or both of sex or gender.

Language – especially English – is the root of a lot of these problems.    There are 18 different words in Thai to describe different genders and there ain’t the same outrage over there as there is here.

We should be doing that in English too…

Anyone undertaking a F-M transition will have had to face this issue already as there are few sports where they’d expect to remain competitive, but those aren’t the transgender voices we all hear.

Yes, good point. I suppose they would not be officially excluded but might well find themselves effectively rejected from their current sport as where they were once the first name on the team sheet, they can no longer even get a place to warm a seat on the bench. And yet for lots of very good reasons they still went ahead with their decision. It would be interesting to hear the story of someone who undertook a F-M transition and how they tackled a change in mindset towards sport afterwards or if they went off and found other things to fill their recreational time.

@scotroutes, I don’t think allowing self-id for competitive sport makes any more sense than it would to allow self-id for weight classes in sports that have them.

It’s widely seen that keeping teenage girls in sport is already really difficult due to to a number of factors.

This is absolutely true. It is even more true for anyone who when growing up didn’t confirm to norms… be that trans girls, non binary teens, or just boys or girls seen as unusual or unclear in how they presented. School PE and sports groups outside school can seem very hostile to many young people (even where those involved try very hard to make it otherwise). Outright bans at the highest levels increase this feeling of hostility.

@rainper Apologies for the late reply, Someone ran a road race through the middle of my luggage transfer schedule today and we’ve had some fun trying to get bags from the coast that needed to cross or travle along the route!

My clumsy example was trying to point out that if the trans section of society had a protected characteristic as laid down in current law the language used by some “protecting their boundaries” would fall so far to the wrong side of acceptable that they would be facing hate speech charges. It is possible to debate the issue without being unpleasant and we should endeavour to maintain a polite and respectful discourse.

I don’t have a dog in this fight though my daughter identifies as queer and she is wholeheartedly behind the trans-equality movement as is my favoutite lgay folk singer (Grace Petrie). I lend support where I can but acknowledge that it is barely my problem due to white, male privilege but everyone should get a fair crack of the whip when it comes to human rights.

What I will say is that trans elite athletes are a tiny percentage of a small percentage of the population. However, EVERY trans/non-binary person I know has seen a huge increase in the amount of hate and intolerance since this has become “news”.

I agree and wonder if a blanket ban of Trans Women in women’s sport would be for the greater good.

That means posting a link to research.

Sharron Davies was pretty convinced of her case.

fwiw, and that’s not much, I absolutely love Hannah’s writing, what she has to say and the way she says.  I really don’t want to disagree with the article because of the ‘metal health’ statement at the top of it and because I wholeheartedly agree with almost every individual statement within it but I just can’t find myself coming to the same conclusion at the end.  It’s a balance of rights issue rather than something that is clearly one way or another and in this case we  have two conflicting sets of rights and not an obvious solution at the end.  I can’t really add to this debate better than many others have already written but do feel it is worth adding a voice to the balance

Ultimately this remains an issue of the conflict between the ‘rights’ of a small number of people against the ‘rights’ of a larger number of people.

Holding the majority doesn’t mean they should prevail in all cases. In some cases the majority has to take the hit for the benefit of the minority.

To some it might be common sense but to others (and FWIW I agree with Hannah on this) common sense is that human rights and inclusivity trump competition. I know others don’t agree, and I know that ‘the science’ indicates that a transwoman has a competitive advantage (but to me there is more work to be done across a wider variety of circumstances and sports). But even if it does; that I’m afraid is the cost of inclusivity. No point debating or hauling me to task for it, it’s my opinion and we’ll have to agree to disagree. And I admit I am not an impartial view.

Sharron Davies was pretty convinced of her case.

I haven’t watched it but I’ve seen enough of her other output and she is a long way short of an evenhanded review, she most definitely has a position that she backs up. IMHO. I try to listen to all views but I also will call bias and bigotry where I see it.

’m not getting into this debate again (or any other debate on here, for that matter) but I just want to say thanks for posting this and I’ll be a subscriber as long as STW is willing to take an unpopular stand for no other reason than it’s the right thing to do.

Just want to reiterate this, and also that the article is a very brave, open, and personal view on the matter.

I know that ‘the science’ indicates that a transwoman has a competitive advantage (but to me there is more work to be done across a wider variety of circumstances and sports). But even if it does; that I’m afraid is the cost of inclusivity. No point debating or hauling me to task for it, it’s my opinion and we’ll have to agree to disagree. And I admit I am not an impartial view

Whilst I sympathise with your view and can see why you come from the perspective you do. If I may be blunt your opinion does come across as “if <span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>my child’s’ not allowed to compete with an advantage over others, then no one should be allowed to compete”.
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I’m<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”> not sure that would be a tolerable solution to many. </span><span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>
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To be clear your child should absolutely be welcomed within society and non competitive sports should absolutely be warmly welcomed; mountain bike riding, hill walking, dinghy sailing, park run, rock climbing etc even non pointy end marathon running & triathlon where it’s more about challenging yourself.

The difficulty arises when there is a crossover to competitive sports and it would be unfair to have an uneven advantage over others or to deprive others of the opportunity of competing.

As demonstrated throughout this thread, it’s a very sensitive debate with no easy answer.

@edhornby – are you suggesting that it’s only OK for trans athletes to compete once they’ve undertaken some sort of chemical and surgical transition? What about those who identify as their non-birth gender but haven’t undergone that process – is it OK to exclude them?

 ‘But even if it does; that I’m afraid is the cost of inclusivity.

that’s the crux of the argument really. Does inclusivity trump fairness? Imo no it doesn’t, as if competitive sport isn’t fair then it’s pointless. Whilst I appreciate why folks would disagree, I suspect 95% of the population would be firmly in the same camp of thinking as myself. And let’s face it, no sporting body is going to acknowledge that trans athletes have an advantage and still let them compete at any decent competitive level

Which leaves us with the question of do trans athletes really have an advantage? I think the answer is ‘probably’, but does that need to be proven before a ban is justified?

I suspect 95% of the population would be firmly in the same camp of thinking as myself. And let’s face it, no sporting body is going to acknowledge that trans athletes have an advantage and still let them compete at any decent competitive level

And as I said before, I see that and I understand your argument but we can ping pong it back indefinitely. It’s an opinion, so even if 95% of people disagree with me (and Hannah) you won’t change it. To me inclusivity >> fairness.

I’m sorry, I’m sympathetic to the potentially displaced podiumer at any level, and understand why it’s not a popular opinion, but that’s the price.

Honestly, feel free to ping it back again but you won’t get a different answer, in fact you won’t get one at all. On this point, I’m out. I might offer more opinion on other matters but inclusion vs fairness is done and dusted for me.

To go back a page or two, male and female *are* basic biology. Humans are a sexually dimorphic species and sex based categories (in both amateur and professional sport) allow females to enjoy fair competition.

Allowing males, however they have modified their bodies, to identify into female classes is not fair. The level of advantage (if any) retained by a trans athlete post any sort of transition is irrelevant – a woman is not a medically weakened man.

Transsexual inclusion in sport should not involve compelling females to open their spaces to a self selecting group of males.

but inclusion vs fairness is done and dusted for me.

Fair enough. I don’t expect you to respond to this as you have had your fill in what is a tricky and sensitive debate but……just to test the position if you will….

Should David Weir be allowed to enter the men’s marathon? Assuming he wanted to that is. Now obviously he’d need to be in his wheel chair – he’d kind of struggle if he didn’t – if this is about inclusion > fairness that would be alright wouldn’t it? Some might suggest it’s a bit unfair that he got to use his wheelchair but as you say it’s all about the inclusion and that trumps all. Or is there a limit beyond which inclusion > fairness gets a bit silly?