Would you accept £10 to be silenced? (classifieds feedback).

I’ll keep this as brief as I can seeing as the amount of email I have on the subject is extensive, but the purpose of this post is purely feedback on a recent purchase from the classifieds. In hindsight, there are things I should have spotted and been wary of but hindsight’s a wonderful thing.

So I bought a pair of brakes from an STW forum member and to get straight to the crux, the original advert stated;

“Used, but very very good condition, don’t think they have any marks or real signs of wear on them anywhere”

The pictures in the advert show an immaculate pair of brakes, albeit does state “not my pictures” (not “Not my brakes”).

So from this, I’m under the impression that these brakes are immaculate (hindsight: should have asked for pictures for confirmation, but people on STW are honest, right?). So the ensuing bit of haggling over extra money for a pair of 160mm Avid rotors, plus extra again to swap one of those for a ‘nearly new’ 180mm rotor (actually £11 extra, for what turned out to be a seemingly well used Super Star rotor [£13 retail]) was agreed on the impression that this is an immaculate pair of brakes without “any marks or real signs of wear on them anywhere“. I think it is important to recognise at this poiint that this sentence started with “don’t think….” – throwing a nice bit of ambiguity in there.

So the brakes arrive, and they’re dirty for starters. No big deal. But after a wipe down it turns out that actually there are marks and signs of wear all over them. Scratched levers – on the carbon blades and quite deep scratches on the lever body from where, I’d say, the bike has taken a tumble. But worse are the callipers – lots of scratches and on one at least, heavily pitted paint work.

After pointing this out to the seller, his reply was “Its just a bit of dirt” followed by accusations of going looking with a microscope. And more “Most of the lever ones look more like irregularities in the carbon then actual damage. The pitted calliper also looks more like a rough paint job then damage. The other calliper however does look a little scratched. It does look completely superficial, and also upon mounting to the bike would be almost impossible to see.”

At this stage I had offered my opinion on what the brakes were actually worth and asked for either a refund to that amount OR a full refund (less his postage costs) on return of the brakes, the latter option as I’m not trying to screw the guy over myself but if he believes they are worth that much then he’s welcome to sell them on again. This was refused point blank, despite his claimed disappointment that we’re both not happy with the situation. I can tell you who I think is a lot happier from this sale.

Finally, I was offered £10 on the basis that its a done deal and I don’t slander the guy on the internet. Well, £10 is neither here nor there and I never had any intention of ‘slandering’ the guy but if he chooses to advertise and sell goods dishonestly on an online forum, I’m well within my rights to share my experiences.

It doesn’t sit well with me being seemingly so pedantic about some scratches which ultimately don’t matter to the performance of the brakes, but that’s quite a lot of money I’ve paid for a set of brakes. A seller has a responsibility to be open and honest about the condition of their goods and if this was the retail world no one would stand for it, so how is it acceptable through classifieds?

In my opinion, its really not.

Note to the seller: sorry if this isn’t the good karma you were after – seems ironic asking for that to me.

Allways get proper pictures if you are buying something especially at that cost.

Its very easy to check your post history and work out who this is as well

to me – 50 / 50 – he wasn’t as honest as he might have been, you are unrealistic and should have got proper pics before buying from the ad

Used, but very very good condition, don’t think they have any marks or real signs of wear on them anywhere

Its the honesty thing that bugs me, Teej. And the refusal to own up afterwards. I know I should have asked for pics, but that’s not dishonest – just naiive of me.

a good seller IMO would have gone for return and refund

Well “he’s” live on the forum at the moment so I’m just going to stick the kettle on.

Anyone want tea?

FWIW you really should get photos as you acknowledge but for “him” to act like this is a bit off. Having said that its difficult to say for sure with out pictures of the actual brakes 😕

The original ad was very ambiguous and vague; I wouldn’t buy from an ad worded like that and with pics that aren’t of the said item. Maybe some photos of the real thing might help us judge how bad they are compared to the description.
As a rule, I think the seller should offer a refund in the interests of keeping this from becoming a bun fight and maintaining his good name; loose the battle and win the war scenario.

Its not as if he’d be losing though, eh?

Unless….

well it’s obviously this thread so I think the tenner’s gone

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/fs-avid-elixir-cr-brakes-4

From YOUR description it sounds like the seller was a bit slippery but then it is buyer beware. I’ll be suspicious of the seller in the future though I have to admit.

Pics!

Indeed – lets see some pics of the real thing

Perhaps he should ‘go out of his way to help you out’ and get more good Karma on his side!

The ad suggests that the brakes are in a similar condition to the ones in the pics, if not then a pretty poor show IMHO.
I know buyer beware and all that but come on, we have all sold stuff and honesty is the name of the game.

Hmmm – £150 for a set of front and rear Elixir CRs?

http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/MTB++Parts/Brakes/Disc+Brakes/Sram++Avid+Disc+Brakes/Avid+Disc+Brake+Sale_AVID-SALE.htm

Should have looked on Merlin and saved yourself a few quid.

If the brakes are as bad as you say, then you have been bronzed my friend. Although the ad does say “not my pics”, the implication is that the pics are very representative of the real thing.

Very bad form, especially offering £10 hush money.

Honesty is everything for STW classifieds. Buyer was probably a little naive not asking for pics, but if a seller says ‘without any marks anywhere’ then it’s reasonable not to expect any.
Sounds like a lower price and sold with ‘normal wear and tear’ was possibly a more reasonable deal (but pics needed – one man’s ‘wear and tear’ is a nother man’s ‘knackered’!).

As they brakes are on a set of bars that are clearly used i’d expect the brakes to be the ones for sale regardless of who the pictures belong to.

Why don’t we have a sticky at the top of the classified section where people can leave good or bad comments about a sale, seller or buyer?

As they brakes are on a set of bars that are clearly used i’d expect the brakes to be the ones for sale regardless of who the pictures belong to

Yes, if not it’s deliberately misleading.

Always ask for pics of the actual thing you’re buying. The one time that I didn’t, I got sent brakes with mismatching rotors/missing rotor bolts from someone who then ignored my emails seeking redress. Ended up selling them on again separately. Caveat emptor and all that.

a good seller IMO would have gone for return and refund

A good seller would post pics of the actual items for sale, without being asked. To be fair, I would expect better from Real Man, he’s a regular. But, yeah, I’d refund in full if someone asked me. As indeed I have done on ebay

Have we got ACTUAL pics of the brakes to look at by any chance?

#
BoardinBob – Member

Why don’t we have a sticky at the top of the classified section where people can leave good or bad comments about a sale, seller or buyer?
Posted 2 minutes ago # Report-Post

Just post on the for sale thread. thats what I do.
then anyone can search that sellers previous sales and see how they have gone.

I’ll do high quality pics if the seller chooses to accept my offer of refund – postage costs on the basis of them not showing any marks, anywhere (and that shouldn’t sound like I found a micro-scratch…). As yet, unattached to any bike of mine I should say.

Otherwise, I can’t be arsed any more – he sent them, he knows (or should know) what condition they’re in.

I’ll reserve judgement until pics are seen BUT if it’s how you describe then it’s dodgy and the seller shouldn’t be trusted in future, especially when a bribe is offered for your silence.

I’ve been in the position where the buyer wasn’t happy with my description, I covered postage and refunded no probs. it taught me a lesson – post as many pics as you can or at least send a load through before money changes hands even if what your selling is £15 (as it was in my case)

well, hes gone onto my ‘tool’ list (the seller)

to offer a partial refund means that they knew they werent in the condition they described them as. if they really arent that bad, why didnt he accept them back? he didnt even have to pay postage.

OP, If an ad states

“these brakes”

, not “this model of brakes” or “brakes similar to these but not these” then I’d expect it to be “These Brakes”. Particullarly when buying second hand.
I believe you are completely within your rights to ask for your money back.
The brakes that you bought have not been supplied.

The idea of money in return for keeping quiet doesn’t have a good ring about it; be interesting to see exactly how that was worded by the seller.

And as the OP states, there’s quite a distinct difference between the phrase “not my pics” and “not my brakes”, with the former coming across as deliberately opaque.

And for a seller to include “don’t think” is pretty crap – I’d say sellers should check items before you post the ad. Again, the language used in the ad (if it the one linked to RealMan) is either poorly thought through or disingenuous

On the plus side there’s some great deals on that merlin link 🙂

I wonder if there is some way of incorporating a feedback bit to the accounts, maybe even if it was a simple website that could be linked which you could log in to and leave feedback on each purchase.

At the simplest level it could just be a link in the account section, to the feedback site.

Otherwise, I can’t be arsed any more – he sent them, he knows (or should know) what condition they’re in.

But we don’t, and if you don’t show us what you’re on about we may well conclude that you’re just being a bit of a tart.

It just goes to show that you can be dicked over by a Premier member too. Just leave some bad relevant feedback on the For Sale thread so that anyone searching for that user in future will know what went on.

full refund (less his postage costs)

as a seller i would always do this.

as a buyer i have once – and was in a similar situation to OP (seatpost with 1mm deep ” superficial scratches”) which has made me a lot more wary of the classifieds.

I would have expected better from a regular…

lets see some pics though OP

I wouldn’t be happy with any of that. I only ever buy from people who appear to be forum regulars, and based on that, and the price I would have expected them to be spanking.

The seller has been very short sighted and will hopefully act to remedy the situation quickly having read this thread.

I’ll keep this as brief

Then… 😯

seeing as the amount of email I have on the subject is extensive, but the purpose of this post is purely feedback on a recent purchase from the classifieds. In hindsight, there are things I should have spotted and been wary of but hindsight’s a wonderful thing.

So I bought a pair of brakes from an STW forum member and to get straight to the crux, the original advert stated;

“Used, but very very good condition, don’t think they have any marks or real signs of wear on them anywhere”

The pictures in the advert show an immaculate pair of brakes, albeit does state “not my pictures” (not “Not my brakes”).

So from this, I’m under the impression that these brakes are immaculate (hindsight: should have asked for pictures for confirmation, but people on STW are honest, right?). So the ensuing bit of haggling over extra money for a pair of 160mm Avid rotors, plus extra again to swap one of those for a ‘nearly new’ 180mm rotor (actually £11 extra, for what turned out to be a seemingly well used Super Star rotor [£13 retail]) was agreed on the impression that this is an immaculate pair of brakes without “any marks or real signs of wear on them anywhere”. I think it is important to recognise at this poiint that this sentence started with “don’t think….” – throwing a nice bit of ambiguity in there.

So the brakes arrive, and they’re dirty for starters. No big deal. But after a wipe down it turns out that actually there are marks and signs of wear all over them. Scratched levers – on the carbon blades and quite deep scratches on the lever body from where, I’d say, the bike has taken a tumble. But worse are the callipers – lots of scratches and on one at least, heavily pitted paint work.

After pointing this out to the seller, his reply was “Its just a bit of dirt” followed by accusations of going looking with a microscope. And more “Most of the lever ones look more like irregularities in the carbon then actual damage. The pitted calliper also looks more like a rough paint job then damage. The other calliper however does look a little scratched. It does look completely superficial, and also upon mounting to the bike would be almost impossible to see.”

At this stage I had offered my opinion on what the brakes were actually worth and asked for either a refund to that amount OR a full refund (less his postage costs) on return of the brakes, the latter option as I’m not trying to screw the guy over myself but if he believes they are worth that much then he’s welcome to sell them on again. This was refused point blank, despite his claimed disappointment that we’re both not happy with the situation. I can tell you who I think is a lot happier from this sale.

Finally, I was offered £10 on the basis that its a done deal and I don’t slander the guy on the internet. Well, £10 is neither here nor there and I never had any intention of ‘slandering’ the guy but if he chooses to advertise and sell goods dishonestly on an online forum, I’m well within my rights to share my experiences.

It doesn’t sit well with me being seemingly so pedantic about some scratches which ultimately don’t matter to the performance of the brakes, but that’s quite a lot of money I’ve paid for a set of brakes. A seller has a responsibility to be open and honest about the condition of their goods and if this was the retail world no one would stand for it, so how is it acceptable through classifieds?

In my opinion, its really not.

Note to the seller: sorry if this isn’t the good karma you were after – seems ironic asking for that to me.
I’d put it down as a learning experience, I’m not sure what advantage there would be to naming the guyas it might come across as sour grapes.
No, I don’t think we can trust everyone who sells on the forum and I wouldn’t buy with knowing the person reasonably well or without photos.

remind me never to buy owt off realman boy………. 😀

HE clearly doesn’t need to name the guy as we all know who he is! someone has posted the original thread above!

Put the OP didn’t name anyone, so the £10 is safe.

Cunning like a fox.

Cunning like a fox.

Yet with the features of a cuddly teddy bear and the grace of a swan.

As they brakes are on a set of bars that are clearly used i’d expect the brakes to be the ones for sale regardless of who the pictures belong to
Yes, if not it’s deliberately misleading.

this i would assume those are the brakes for sale and someone else took the pics. I would not assume it means look this is what avid brakes look like and mine are the same type

As for the damage depends what they look like but it shows that even with a regular poster and a Premier you still need to apply caution

It reads so far like the seller did try to mislead but I reserve judgement till I see the picture

[stw mode]I am looking at my pitchfork but not sharpening it yet[/stw]

OK so I’d better do this thread justice and post pics when I get home.

Don Simon – there’s plenty more I could put! I was thinking of pasting in the entire email thread start to finish but there are better ways to spend a few hours of one’s weekend. Oh wait…

At the end of the day, it’s a simple mis understanding in the use of descriptive terminology. i.e. Seller should have added the word “like” before he said

these ones

and instead of

but these aren’t my pics

maybe

“these aren’t pics of mine”

Because of error in descriptive terminology the OP didn’t feel like he needed any more pictures as there’s already 2 beautifully large, detailed images in the post.
If the OP was asking for more it would therefore come across as being a little bit special.

Maybe with the benefit of hindsight and a few of us agreeing with the OP he may swing around and both of you realise it as a bit of a misunderstanding.

EDIT which all the other negotiations have been aggravated by

If I’ve ever posted pics on an ad that aren’t of the actual thing I’m selling (eg they’re just to show which model/version of a part I’m selling) then I’ve been VERY careful to make that clear.