Terrorism

Well Drac has (quite rightly IMO) clearly stated that if we wish to discuss the causes and possible solutions to terrorism, the threads associated with the coward in Manchester and the losers last night in London are not the place to do it. Here can be a place, but it must remain respectful; racist generalisations will not be tolerated.

Mods: if you think this a bad idea, feel free to close this now. If it’s getting out of hand, likewise.

Well I’ll start the ball. Totally agree on another thread.

If 25000 + are know why has there not been any action taken against said numbers?

Ban travel to/from know jihad locations.

Ban travel to/from know jihad locations.

How exactly? Holiday in Turkey then over the border from there? Ferry from Spain to North Africa?

Thanks Zokes.

Passports can still be stamped.

A good start would be to review the close relationship of Her Majesty’s Government with Saudi Arabia:

U.K. Terrorism Report on Saudi Arabia May Be Kept Secret

the Home Office not only declined to disclose any information regarding its findings, it suggested it may never do so, due to the “very sensitive” nature of the results. which are believed to contain references to Saudi Arabia, a close ally of the U.K. and known sponsor of ultraconservative Wahhabist Sunni Muslim ideology around the world.

Not to mention other influential governments…

In Washington, President Donald Trump’s ascension to the White House initially appeared devastating to Saudi interests, as Trump had accused the monarchy of propagating radical Islamist ideology throughout the region and abroad. Trump, who signed a $110 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia during a trip to the country last week, pointed out only last year that 15 of the 19 hijackers connected to Al-Qaeda and responsible for the 9/11 attacks actually came from Saudi Arabia.

Multiple passports…

Not when your don’t want it and when you go cross country. What do you think people are not doing? As the stats go you need to be lucky every time, they need to be lucky once.

If 25000 + are know why has there not been any action taken against said numbers?

Good question, this is well worth a read:

The Manchester Bombing as Blowback: The latest evidence[/url]

The evidence suggests that the barbaric Manchester bombing, which killed 22 innocent people on May 22nd, is a case of blowback on British citizens arising at least partly from the overt and covert actions of British governments. The British state therefore has a serious case to answer. We focus primarily here on UK policies towards Libya but also touch on some of those related to Iraq and Syria.

In summary, the evidence so far shows that there are six inter-related aspects of blowback:

1. Salman Abedi and his father were members of a Libyan dissident group – the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) – covertly supported by the UK to assassinate Qadafi in 1996. At this time, the LIFG was an affiliate of Osama Bin Laden’s al-Qaeda and LIFG leaders had various connections to this terror network.

2. Members of the LIFG were facilitated by the British ‘security services’ to travel to Libya to fight Qadafi in 2011. Both Salman Abedi and his father, Ramadan, were among those who travelled to fight at this time (although there is no evidence that their travel was personally facilitated or encouraged by the security services).

3. A large number of LIFG fighters in Libya in 2011 had earlier fought alongside the Islamic State of Iraq – the al-Qaeda entity which later established a presence in Syria and became the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS). These fighters were among those recruited into the British-backed anti-Qadafi rebellion.

4. UK covert action in Libya in 2011 included approval of and support to Qatar’s arming and backing of opposition forces, which included support to hardline Islamist groups; this fuelled jihadism in Libya.

5. One of the groups armed/supported by Qatar in 2011 was the February 17th Martyrs Brigade which, some reports suggest, was the organisation which Ramadan Abedi joined in 2011 to fight Qadafi.

6. Qatar’s arms supplies to Libya in 2011 also found their way to Islamist fighters in Syria, including groups affiliated with al-Qaeda and ISIS.

The evidence points to the LIFG being seen by the UK as a proxy militia to promote its foreign policy objectives. Whitehall also saw Qatar as a proxy to provide boots on the ground in Libya in 2011, even as it empowered hardline Islamist groups.

Both David Cameron, then Prime Minister, and Theresa May – who was Home Secretary in 2011 when Libyan radicals were encouraged to fight Qadafi – clearly have serious questions to answer. We believe an independent public enquiry is urgently needed.

The evidence suggests that British actions in three different theatres – Libya, Iraq and Syria – cannot be viewed in isolation

Passports can still be stamped.

It’s not usual to have your passport stamped if you’re illegally crossing between countries and don’t wish it known that you were there.

As for locking up 25,000 suspects, at best all this will achieve exactly what it did in NI: it’ll be excellent recruitment material for the terrorists, and probably facilitate a lot of knowledge transfer between suspects in custody. Neither of these seem good outcomes.

So what do we do zokes? Leave them on the streets? This needs to be come down on hard, how many more innocent people need to die before the government acts?

When these things happen, I always have the same thoughts.
What are these guys trying to achieve? What do they want to happen? They kill themselves or the police kill them so they never get to see it. you have to assume they are angry with our country’s actions, especially abroad. But how does killing some random punters on the street make a difference. Go kill the politicians who make these decisions? You might be stabbing a green party supporter.

So you want to come down on people without proof? Based on what they are thinking? Grace d swooping arrests like those that filled Guantanamo with people arrested and released with no charges and very little in way of apology.
How did that make it better for the world?

A little background on internment last time round with the IRA:

Op Demetrius

As I recall it was quite a useful recruitment aid for the IRA.

racist generalisations

I was recently called ‘racist’ by a friend (half-jokingly) for my raising an eyebrow at Saudi Arabian visitors, along with a terrorist/’bomb’ joke. I responded with ‘a country is not a ‘race’. Neither is a religion’. Neither, for that matter, is an aittitude/culture – even if co-opted by racial supremacists. ie you are not automatically insulting ‘white people’ if you speak out against the C of E. Likewise you are not by default insulting ‘brown-people’ if you speak out against Islam. Surely it is far more offensive for a Muslim to hear an ‘insult’ against Islam. That is one of the motives for murderers. The ‘racism’ thing is a horrible sideshow full of farkwits on both ‘sides’. It doesn’t help matters, but it’s not the key issue.

The ‘race’ thing is too-often invoked and is sadly instrumental in closing down open debates about religious, cultural and political tensions.

Saudi Arabia. End of discussion.

So what do we do zokes? Leave them on the streets? This needs to be come down on hard, how many more innocent people need to die before the government acts?

Stop killing innocent civilians in the Middle East and Libya would be a start. We could spend some on the £200bn we’re wasting on Trident to give domestic security services the resources they need to act swiftly and accurately.

And a spot of perspective would also be useful. These incidents are isolated, and the risk posed remains very low. Panicking and knee-jerk reactions are exactly what they want. Don’t play into their hands.

Why not get talk to them, question their motivations, provide alternative ways of seeing things/thinking, try to unbrainwash them, try to get their families/leaders to challenge/deal with them.

The 23,000 are potential threats but that doesn’t mean you can just lock up people who could potentially do something. We would need a lot more prisons if we did….

A good start would be to show respect to their cause.. calling people cowards and losers when they have given their lives seems a bit crass. Then we can look at education and understanding of their cause. One man’s terrorist is another man’s partner and all that

A good start would be to show respect to their cause.. calling people cowards and losers when they have given their lives seems a bit crass.

WTAF! 😯

A good start would be to show respect to their cause.. calling people cowards and losers when they have given their lives seems a bit crass.

I’m quite happy to put effort into understanding their cause, indeed you’ll see I allude to this by highlighting our actions in the Middle East. However, the individuals in question were cowards and losers. They attacked unarmed civilians. There aren’t many more cowardly behaviours than that.

A good start would be to show respect to their cause

Please elaborate?

When we stop sucking on the same Wahhabi teat that nourishes hardline Islamic terrorism, we might be in a better moral position.

When we stop providing support in the UK groups with hardline terrorist leanings in order to fight proxy wars in countries like Libya, perhaps members of those groups won’t be bringing the death and destruction we export back home with them.

The cynical foreign policies of the Arab Spring have led to devastation and the deaths of thousands of innocents, and power vacuums where hardline groups can flourish. The woman offering ‘strong and stable’ leadership was one of those on whose watch this happened.

When will we ever learn?

They attacked unarmed civilians. There aren’t many more cowardly behaviours than that.

Except maybe doing it remotely by advanced weaponry, then pouring yourself a beer afterwards?

They attacked unarmed civilians.

Just the same as most countries who engage in unnecessary wars, including the UK. But that is clearly different…

Except maybe doing it remotely by advanced weaponry, then pouring yourself a beer afterwards?

I’m not arguing with that. As you’ll see I’ve stated twice already.

They kill themselves or the police kill them so they never get to see it. you have to assume they are angry with our country’s actions, especially abroad. But how does killing some random punters on the street make a difference.

To understand this you have to understand the ideology they follow.
Before anyone chimes in about ordinary Muslims or moderate Muslims that’s not what we’re talking about here….these people are extremist in their views, they believe in a literal translation of the Koran and they believe that death to non believers is the only mission goal….they couldn’t care less whether it’s Teresa May or an 8 yr old Ariana Grande fan they kill, they’re both infidels and both deserve to die in their warped views.

You could pull out of the Middle East and it would still continue because there is a small but viscous sect within Islam that honestly believe their role is to take the fight to non believers, kill or convert non believers and spread Islam…by force if necessary.
You can’t reason with that.

It’s not a race issue, it’s a religion/ideology issue….how to sort it?….buggered if I know, there may well be too many people in this country with these views for it to ever be sorted now, I’ve resigned myself to the fact that Islam will become the dominant religion in this country….hopefully not in my lifetime but the birth rate among followers of Islam far outstrips those who don’t follow that religion….given how ultra-PC the general population, police and politicians have become I think these attacks will become more frequent and that people who don’t follow Islam will end up dead or emigrating.

Shame that such a backwards ideology has taken such a firm foothold in Europe.

5 pages and then total lockdown and the phrase terrorist added to the swear filter.

I dunno, if it keeps that kind of thing off the main London Bridge thread it will have served its purpose.

Well Mrs May has just said “it is time to say enough is enough”. So I imagine she has a plan and will have this all sorted out shortly.

Deviant: I’m confused. You go to great lengths in your first paragraph to correctly identify the root cause as a small group of nutters who are not representative of the hundreds of millions of peaceful followers of the Islamic faith.

You then go on to hypothecate about a (seemingly irrational) fear of the religion in question becoming the main religion in the UK. Is this a “some of my best mates are muslims, but…” post?

Top post deviant

A good start would be to show respect to their cause.. calling people cowards and losers when they have given their lives seems a bit crass.

Gobsmacked.

At the moment, few of these nutters have access to any significant weaponry. Last night they used a Transit and some knives.

What is really a concern, is what happens if they manage to get a decent supply of guns and explosive, like the NI terrorists?

Imagine the carnage last night if they had even just shotguns? Potentially dozens of deaths and hundreds of wounded.

given how ultra-PC the general population, police and politicians have become

Really??

I’ve resigned myself to the fact that Islam will become the dominant religion in this country

PMSL!

I’m more worried that they may attack even softer targets with their easily accessed weapons.

At the moment, few of these nutters have access to any significant weaponry. Last night they used a Transit and some knives.

I know, given they only had knives I don’t know why the police couldn’t taser and arrest them, rather than murder them in another illegal extra-judicial killing

Oh I wonder if it might be to do with the fake bomb vests they were apparently wearing.

Disgusting what is happening.

Understand them? They want to cause hatred and dislike the West’s values.

I know, given they only had knives I don’t know why the police couldn’t taser and arrest them, rather than murder them in another illegal extra-judicial killing

You are taking the piss, right.
My sarcasmometer is reading not sure.