STW 2017 EU in/out referendum thread

Well Labour has already lost so many voters to UKIP, you go campaigning around more deprived housing estates and people chant UKIP at you. A man in a white van will stop and ask you who you are canvassing for when you tell them Labour they say UKIP all the way. Clearly Labour still gains more support than them but stupid to deny that Labour isn’t losing huge chunks of support to then. You can see it on the streets and polling day.

So you are a labour canvasser who constantly experiences this and all of this has happened to you in many many different areas and constituencies?

Remind me in what areas do UKIP come closest to winning? Labour ones or Tory ones?

I am not saying that UKIP dont get any support from Labour voters but to claim they are not most like the Tory party and not most likely to get voters from tories is fanciful.

If you think UKIP will wipe out Labour then you must spend as much time in the pub as Nigel

Well up until yesterday when the British public very kindly handed me my P45 I worked in politics, I have campaigned over the last 4 and half years in many parts of England but mostly in the Midlands and the East of England. UKIP aren’t beating us, well actually they did in two Labour wards last year in my city but we won them this year after fighting a very hard campaign. They are taking a lot of our support.

On a side we have local elections 3 years out of 4 and we actually got our best local result since 2001 on Thursday night. If people had voted the same in the General election as they did in the local we would have kept the Parliamentary seat by a few thousand votes. Despite having a candidate with a fantastic reputation and name recognition we didnt.

EDIT what I meant to say is that the public saw this election as a referendum as Ed as PM and working with SNP and they voted against it.

frosty, you are talking to real people? Strewth no wonder you lost you need to get on that social media more and speak to other lefties like JY that is the way to political success (and you can pick up some good recipes too).

I agree with your point and you might want to read what i said on the Labour leader thread as I agree other lefties demanding more leftism is not the answer at all. Its won and lost in the middle ground and I am so far away I can barely see it.

You forgot pictures of kittens …I tried to find a labour one but hey the interent was full of lefties [ true that bit]

Rochdale, & Heywood & Middleton both returned Labour MP’s on Thursday but UKIP came 2nd in both constituencies.
It has to be acknowledged that UKIP are taking votes from Labour, many trad Labour voters in ‘working class’ areas will never vote Tory due to perceived class issues – but are quite right wing in their outlook.
Certainly I’m seeing many more UKIP posters around & I believe the Labour majority in both was reduced whilst the Tory vote hardly changed (although I may be wrong as ive not looked properly at the figures)

I fully support the freedom of goods, services, people and capital. So lets have a vote and squash the insular Xenophobes before they start making stuff up about jobs and wages.

Personally I think the result is in no doubt whatsoever, I think it’ll be 70/80%in.

So a largely pointless referendum, but I suppose it needs to happen to shut the euro isolationists up.

Rochdale and Heywood – by election won by over 600 votes election won by 5000 votes and more votes than they got in 2010

Tories were second in 2010 and third in the last two

I am not convinced this means Labour are losing to UKIP tbh

Rochdale labour increased his vote by 5000 as well

I accept UKIP take some votes from labour but they are not close to beating them they are close to taking some tory seats though

some traditional working class are many things but PC is not one of them. Some of them can be a bit racist/little englander and blame foreigners [ when its really rigth wing capitalism/globalisation that has removed the traditional working class/manufacturing jobs] for their woes.

Yes UKIP take votes from labour but nothing like they do from the Tories

You either believe in democracy or you don’t

That’s silly. You can very easily believe in some things needing to be democratic and some things not.

Democracy has one colossal flaw which is that to vote wisely on something you have to understand it. And if you don’t understand it then you can be persuaded by whoever is trying to win your vote. Given that much of the electorate know bugger all about most of the issues, it’s not hard to see a problem.

The EU seems to me to have put in place lots of good rules that people wouldn’t have voted for given the chance – particularly with regard the environment. But as a voter I could be wrong 🙂

In other words often people just don’t know what’s good for them.

Personally I think the result is in no doubt whatsoever, I think it’ll be 70/80%in.

I don’t share your confidence. Pretty much everyone I speak to about it say out. The lefties say out because it’s a neo-liberal capitalist club, the rightwingers want out because they’re scared of johnny foreigner think we’re better. There’s not many people left in the middle.

BenjiM – Member

Can’t you not export non-perishable ones then? Dairy milk powder?

I missed out a “/” between Dairy Produce and Perishable goods. Milk powder is still perishable, just has a longer shelf life due to the low moisture.[/quote]

Yes, that’s what I mean. i.e. longer shelf life. There is a great demand for milk powder if you know where to export to but the problem is that you need to have local contacts. Without local contacts you are more or less screwed as some of the corrupted custom officials will hold your items to ransom. They want kickbacks or freebies to let your goods leave the ports … a pain in the backside to be honest.

In the far east instead of proper milk creamer (talking about creamer for coffee) they use hydrogenated fat from palm oil as substitute for creamer made from milk powder. This hydrogenated fat creamer has a shelf life forever i.e. never go bad even insects are not interested in them.

It is a pain but it’s a way of life over there … 😮

Junkyard – lazarus
I am not convinced this means Labour are losing to UKIP tbh

Not this time because UKIP is still a fairly “new” party with rag-tag party members but they will make some in-road in the next election if they get it right coz the Labour voting region is right for harvesting.

I live in a traditional strong Labour region of NE with die hard voters but it is changing. I met cleaners who have traditionally voted for Labour, when I asked them, but considered voting for UKIP instead of Tories. They are trying very hard to search for alternative parties to vote for.

If UKIP can get their profiles up in the Labour regions by having sensible candidates they have far better chance of getting the votes from Labour then from Tories in the South.

Labour is not doing much for the locals in the NE apart from being a traditional party that the working class vote for. The miners are long gone and the small scale industry limited so Labour party will be rather insignificant in future if other sensible parties appear.

Talking about complete collapse of British economy out of EU? Naaahh … that’s just scare mongering.

If your company is shite with shite management no matter what market you are in you will loose out. It’s about business and competition. The EU is just a temporary barrier to help incumbent to compete …

🙄

molgrips – Member

That’s silly. You can very easily believe in some things needing to be democratic and some things not.

Democracy has one colossal flaw which is that to vote wisely on something you have to understand it. And if you don’t understand it then you can be persuaded by whoever is trying to win your vote. Given that much of the electorate know bugger all about most of the issues, it’s not hard to see a problem.

I don’t think I’ve ever agreed so much with anything you’ve said. I probably never will again! But bang on.

In for pragmatic reasons but, I’m just curious as to what would happen.

To me, we are all very lucky in this country and if you have a roof over your head and food in your belly then its one big amusement park, the doom and gloom in other posts is an overreaction.

I’d have been fine with devolution for the same reason.

I fully support the freedom of goods, services, people and capital.

Do you really? In general, or just within the EU?

The SNP and labour are on the left and share the same view on the EU

So there is only one view on the EU for the political left?

leegee – Member

In for pragmatic reasons but, I’m just curious as to what would happen.

To me, we are all very lucky in this country and if you have a roof over your head and food in your belly then it’s one big amusement park, the doom and gloom in other posts is an overreaction.

I’d have been fine with devolution for the same reason.

For ordinary folks nothing much if you are a middle income earner but for lower income folks they will face more competitions which is inevitable if their jobs are low skills. The pool of labour to select from becomes larger now in EU. Depending on how you see things – good if you like competition. Not good if you think the competition will intensify.

For small business this means more inflexible rules for smaller people who own a small business or intend to start their own business. This mega structure is only meant to support large companies with deep pocket. Smaller start up will have to face many hurdles before even getting their business going. Bear in mind, you have rules to govern rules to govern another rules … the cost of complying with all these rules can be tough for many. To large multinationals this is good because of their ability to use this rules to monopolise the market or to keep competitors out.

Very simple go to your high street and see if you can find many independent shops. Also go to other high streets to see if they are very similar …

big_n_daft – Member

The SNP and labour are on the left and share the same view on the EU

So there is only one view on the EU for the political left? [/quote]

Ya, they dig themselves too deep now to get out of that “big family and we are all one family and share everything” slogan/principle/motto whatever.

So there is only one view on the EU for the political left?

Have you considered commenting on what i said rather that making up a statement I never said and then asking me about that ?

The EU is an issue which goes across traditional party boundaries of left and right. This fact has no impact on the truthfulness of the point I made.

For example ernie and UKIP agree on the EU this does not mean a campaign to leave the EU will lead to ernie supporting UKIP afterwards

No offence meant their ernie as clearly you are not anything lile them.

Strongly suspect the vast majority will vote “in”, fearful of economic disaster. This may be one I’ll abstain on. My instinct is “out” for similar reasons to ernie but I think as things currently stand the UK could be in a even darker place if we left.
Ideally of course I’d prefer a global union 🙂

woodnut – Member
Strongly suspect the vast majority will vote “in”, fearful of economic disaster.

No doubt majority will vote “in” because of the unknown attached to being out.

“You either believe in democracy or you don’t”

Democracy has one colossal flaw …….

Yeah I remember how quite a while back you expressed your contempt for democracy to me Molgrips, how it was flawed because people, to put it in a nutshell, vote incorrectly. It’s not the sort of thing I’m likely to forget but thanks for reminding me anyway.

Democracy has one colossal flaw ….people get to vote.

.

For example ernie and UKIP agree on the EU this does not mean a campaign to leave the EU will lead to ernie supporting UKIP afterwards

It wouldn’t lead to me supporting UKIP before either, never mind afterwards.

I said at the top of this page : “I’d rather vote Tory than UKIP”

I would very happily vote Tory if the choice was between Tory or UKIP. I don’t know why that is so hard to understand.

you expressed your contempt for democracy to me Molgrips

What? Contempt? I said it is good sometimes, that’s not really consistent with ‘contempt’ is it?

Democracy as a concept is fine, but people have to make the effort to understand what they are voting for. Surely you have to accept that? Otherwise the result is meaningless.

Imagine if I put it to a vote on STW if I should use Business Events or Insights on my current project at work. You’d have no idea. But there’s be nothing stopping you from voting.

I don’t think people vote incorrectly, necessarily – that’s not quite the right word. I don’t think many people understand the issues properly.

Do you think they do understand everything?

I’ll probably vote in. However I expect the out vote to win, and it would be prudent to have sold up for a move elsewhere in Europe (I have a non-British EU passport) before Sterling tanks.

The consequences for immigrants and expatriates from Britain and in Britain and relying on EU residency rights are frankly terrifying.

I wonder how the wording will pan out. Who’ll get the positive ‘Yes’ option?

Personally I think the vote will not achieve an out vote. I know some very vocal and opinionated folk who want out if the EU. But volume of sound doesn’t necessarily equate to volume of votes.

In.

What? Contempt? I said it is good sometimes, that’s not really consistent with ‘contempt’ is it?

Wow, democracy is “good sometimes” !

Thanks for letting me know. It’s clear that you have huge admiration for democracy and don’t feel any contempt towards it at all.

Just the people who vote incorrectly and are stupid maybe.

*sigh* the sacrasm does you no favours, and it completely derails the discussion. If you’ve got a response to the point, then I’d like to hear it.

con·tempt
k?n?tem(p)t/
noun
noun: contempt

the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn.

I don’t see anything that resembles contempt, just the acknowledgement that when it’s very hard for everyone to fully understand all the facts that the results of the democracy may not be what the voter thought they’d be. That to me would be make it imperfect.

piemonster – Member

I wonder how the wording will pan out. Who’ll get the positive ‘Yes’ option?

Personally I think the vote will not achieve an out vote. I know some very vocal and opinionated folk who want out if the EU. But volume of sound doesn’t necessarily equate to volume of votes.

I want Out but then I have to be realistic that an In vote will win due to following reasons:

1. Embedded economy infrastructure(EU structured dug deep in the vein)
2. Large organisations threatening govt divest(they shouldn’t but they will).
3. Too much reliance on the state to create jobs. (because current structure has killed off majority of the private sectors)
4. Too much bureaucracy see point 1.
5. Strong emphasis on societal impact. i.e. positive immigration.
6. It is too soon because people are not well prepared yet to stand on their own.

If the govt can deal with the above then the story will be different. However, if there is a will there is a way but it will be hard sell.

😛

If you’ve got a response to the point, then I’d like to hear it.

You clearly have a low opinion of democracy and feel it is ‘deserving of scorn’, to use whatnobeer’s definition.

Democracy is completely “imperfect”, just the very fact it gives power to a majority is proof of that. But as a concept it is never bad.

Furthermore it is absolutely clear in what context the term democracy is being used here, ie, referendums. It is right to ask the people their views on important constitutional issues such as political-economic unions be they the EU or the UK.

It was right that Scots were asked their opinions despite the fact it was a “complex” issue, this was not a bad thing. Likewise the general election despite the fact that the economy, for example, is a “complex” issue, the general election was not a bad thing.

I agree with the need to make informed decisions, which is one of the reasons why I am a strong supporter of democratic centralism and delegation. But democracy even in its bourgeois form with all its limitations is a good thing. To start criticising it is a serious and dangerous error.

HTH if it doesn’t kinda unfortunate I’ve got stuff to do 🙂

Not really the tight thread for it. But **** if I’m starting another election related one

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-10/riots-erupt-in-london-against-re-election-of-david-cameron/6458098

I’ll be voting, donating to, and possibly campaigning for IN.

I fully expect to be disappointed. I think the Me politic is here to stay…

6. It is too soon because people are not well prepared yet to stand on their own.

Why is being on your own a good thing? Take a look round the world, it’s getting smaller. The EU gives the rest of the world 1 body to negotiate with for trade and commerce without needing to deal with either lots of different governments or just the few big ones. If the UK is out then it will have a lot of work to do to be competitive.

Participation in the EU will end up being better than leaving.

In some ways I welcome the referendum, if it goes with staying in it should put the issue to bed (although that doesn’t seem to have happened in Scotland)