Have we done the BAE shipyards yet?

althepal – Member

What was the script with Trident/Devonport then? The fact thst its too dangerous to have armed subs there because of the risk to the population but its ok to have them parked just down the road from Glasgow?

Nah, the other way round- Rosyth and Devonport both bidded for Trident maintenance, the work was given to Devonport to buy votes even though everyone knew their bid was impossibly low. Devonport underbid Rosyth by buttons then went hundreds of millions overbudget.

Markie – Member

didn’t think the Conservatives really cared about the Union (given that they don’t seem to gain any political power from it).

They get the financial gain from Scotland without the political hassle of having to give a crap about scottish people, sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

financial gain from Scotland

What’s that then?

winston_dog – Member

financial gain from Scotland

What’s that then?

Posted 7 minutes ago # Report-Post

You have seen the changes made to the line of the UK territorial waters?

Wonder why they felt they had to do that?

financial gain from Scotland
What’s that then?

With 8.4% of the UK population Scotland – on average – raises 9.1% of taxation

I know a few folks that work at the Naval Base in P’mth, must catch up with them to get thier view. Both work on maintenance so maybe it won’t affect them too much, well considering the maintenance and refits are still going to happen here..
I’d say it’s probably for the best, keep all the grubby jobs for the Scots and the more sophisticated jobs for the Southerners*

*this may not be true, I’m just taking the mickey… 😀

Scottish Executive figures for 2009-10 show that spending per capita in Scotland was £11,370, versus £10,320 for the UK. In other words, spending in Scotland was £1,030 – or 10% higher – per head of population than the UK average.

Which is an interesting fact, but more than cancelled out by the higher revenue per head Scotland also produces. But then you know that 😉

Wait until Billy the Fish gets his way and we get divorced.

Then we will see how everything pans out.

The amount of Scots that kept telling me in the 90’s how many small EU states have made such a go of it, Iceland, Ireland etc. That Ingerland was just holding them back….

The amount of Scots that kept telling me in the 90’s how many small EU states have made such a go of it, Iceland, Ireland etc. That Ingerland was just holding them back….

You say that as if Iceland and Ireland are somehow failed states rather than prosperous small nations that had a big one off fluctuation due to a GLOBAL financial crisis

Zokes- my apologies.. you forgot the :-)!
Wrecker-it whiffs of being condescending at best, threatening at worst. Reminds me a bit of the tactics used in the 70s and hindsight shows we were shafted back then..
On one hand the clyde is being hailed by westminster as the best place to build the T26s, but on the other hand, should we become independant you can forget it..funny how fickle folk can be.
I imagine that if there wasn’t a referendum next year this discussion would be a lot different..

considering salmond pops his head up at any time the words job loss and scotland are in close proximity his silence is quite amusing.

probably coming to terms with the fact that westminister have totally scuppered his chances of becoming King of the North

You say that as if Iceland and Ireland are somehow failed states rather than prosperous small nations that had a big one off fluctuation due to a GLOBAL financial crisis

That is some interpretations of events!!!!

A lot of this comes from BAE stiffing the MoD over the QE carriers.
Ark being binned early was because of that too.
As a contractor in there I’ve seen first hand how BAE operate and they aren’t nice…..

His number 2 has been getting involved in his absence but I’m sure we’ll hear from him at some point soon regarding it all. Already admitted I’m a yes supporter so will be interesting to hear his take on it.

You say that as if Iceland and Ireland are somehow failed states rather than prosperous small nations that had a big one off fluctuation due to a GLOBAL financial crisis

You mean nothing to do with their complete lack of understanding of financial risk and piss poor regulation?

That is some interpretations of events!!!!

Well it is of course a massive simplification but I’m not trying to win the internets or anything.

Are they not prosperous small nations then?

As an aside: now BAE are getting shut of thousands of people who actually make stuff, do you think they’ll also be getting rid of lots of the massive salaried, former MOD management too…. ?

kimbers – Member

probably coming to terms with the fact that westminister have totally scuppered his chances of becoming King of the North

You think so? TBH I see it the other way round, the No campaign have always made lots of noise about how independence would endanger dockyard jobs but this has just made it clear how unsafe they are even in the union- even with this contract it’s still 800 job losses and no long-term certainty, and an open admission of how happy they are to play politics with people’s lives. It just shows up the weakness of that whole argument, Westminster’s good at threatening to take things away but rubbish at actually delivering the carrot.

Sorry rich, my comment was a bit sarcy, but you could have chosen better examples of small successful nations than two who bankrupted themselves (wth a little help from their friends) !!!!

On one hand the clyde is being hailed by westminster as the best place to build the T26s, but on the other hand, should we become independant you can forget it..funny how fickle folk can be.

Seems to me that they’re saying that it’s the best place in the UK to build the big boats. That argument doesn’t hold if the scots leave. If they wanted to outsource, they could go somewhere cheaper than Scotland or just buy foreign.
It is a bit of a threat, but one which is easily justifiable.
As a taxpayer I wouldn’t be happy for them to be built abroad when we have capabilities within our borders.

Oh aye wrecker-agree with what you’re saying and understand the point- I just dont like it.

I just dont like it.

Me neither. 1000 odd people being told that they’re losing their jobs a few weeks before christmas is shit. Doesn’t matter if they’re English or Scottish to me, it’s still shit. I suppose being in the south of England gives them a better chance at finding alternative employment than those in rural Scotland.

Ah, Ireland. Osborne’s Celtic Tiger, the ‘shining example’, the ‘Irish Miracle’, from which ‘We have much to learn’.

😆

Per capita GDP:

Iceland: $41,739
Ireland: $45,888

UK: $39,049

Just saying like

There’s always the double edged thing with shipbuilding which brings Robert Wyatt, Elvis Costello and other voices into my head.

Hey, in other news on the jobs front, NSG close Pilkington Cowley Hill site, 140 more jobs go.

Where’s a building boom taking place? Or does it lag the demand for mortgages?

A lot of this comes from BAE stiffing the MoD over the QE carriers.
Ark being binned early was because of that too.
As a contractor in there I’ve seen first hand how BAE operate and they aren’t nice…..

Nail on head.

This is BAE through and through. When they took over the VT shipyard at Portsmouth, you might as well have hanged a sign saying “Lose hope all ye who enter.”

We used to build ships for others, but that largely disappeared in the 80’s(I wonder why 🙄 ) So, all these shipyards were relying on was what the MOD was going to give them, which since the cuts to the defence budget, wasn’t going to be very much.

Add to that, that BAE has been allowed to swallow up defence company after defence company, almost forming a monopoly, along with the intentional practice of bidding low for contracts and getting more money for the contract it goes tits up, brings us to where we are today.

If the business model continues, i.e, only building for the UK MOD, then the two shipyards in Scotland will more then likely close if Scotland goes independent. BAE will make a purely business based decision, like they have just done.

So Scotland loses jobs and an industry, and while the rest of the UK can get by with re-starting at Portsmouth and Barrow, it leaves me with one conclusion: Regardless of nationality, BAE shafts everyone in the end.

I suppose we could ask the French to build our complex warships for us by their STATE OWNED ship building company, that also exports to foreign customers…

You say that as if Iceland and Ireland are somehow failed states rather than prosperous small nations that had a big one off fluctuation due to a GLOBAL financial crisis

I’ve seen some “romantic revisions” of events in my time, but this has to be among the best.

Saying what exactly?

Why pick a random figure (youdid also check the trends in GDP per capita) and ignore the fact that you are highlighting two economies that have just gone though catastrophic periods of crisis/failure. The most interesting point is the different routes they chose to try to exit. Are you suggesting that Scotland needs to understand both in preparation for their turn!?!?!

actually THM i was hoping youd weigh in on the GDP stuff, why is uk so poor on that?

even adjusted for PPP (i had to look that up) weve always been crapper than Ireland and Iceland
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/countries

and we are ranked lower on happiness etc on the OECD scales and have lower life expectancy!

Add to that, that BAE has been allowed to swallow up defence company after defence company, almost forming a monopoly,

FTFY

BAE are an absolute disgrace. A load of ex MoD civil servants and ex forces old boys looking after each other.

This has a bit of bias but is very interesting Lions Donkeys and Dinosaurs

Kimbers, just go back and see what the drivers of GDP per capita are/were? Ask yourself, are they/were they sustainable? Were they just (ever so slightly!) un-balanced (true in all three cases actually).

At best Iceland and Ireland are good examples of how rel. small economies can be very vulnerable to unbalanced and unsustainable growth drivers and unable to deal with the consequencies that may result. They also give different case studies on how to deal with (in effect) national bankruptcies. I would not want to wish that on Scotland but there a lessons to be learned.

But re the UK, the hit to GDP per capita has been more severe in the current recession than in previous ones for various reasons. The simplest is that population growth has been much more (@4%) than in previous recessions. As we all know the hit to average incomes has also been relatively high with a knock on effect on consumption….And inflation has also been relatively high making the hit to nominal household income even worse. There’s more, but that will do for now!!!

Northwind – Member
Which is an interesting fact, but more than cancelled out by the higher revenue per head Scotland also produces. But then you know that

Actually if you look at the 2011-12 Treasury data public spending is 23% higher per capita in Scotland comapared to the UK average while Scotland only raises 8.3% more tax revenue compared with the UK average.

Actually if you look at the 2011-12 Treasury data public spending is 23% higher per capita in Scotland comapared to the UK average while Scotland only raises 8.3% more tax revenue compared with the UK average.

…although if you break that down into more comperably sized regions of the UK you’d get a different picture. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

fr0sty125 – Member

Actually if you look at the 2011-12 Treasury data public spending is 23% higher per capita in Scotland comapared to the UK average while Scotland only raises 8.3% more tax revenue compared with the UK average.

Apples and oranges.

Is there a Mebbe option in he referendum ? I won’t vote Yes, but voting No seems a bit, well, negative. I think I would vote Mebbe tho. Perhaps I spoil my vote ? Draw a big picture of a willie ?

Piemonster – email away

hels – Member

Draw a big picture of a willie ?

I could be wrong but I’ve heard that in UK elections though you’re asked to mark with an X, any clear mark is acceptable to show your preference- so be careful where you cast your knob.

scotroutes – Member
Piemonster – email away

😀

hels — Mebbe was really the DevoMax option I’d have said.
I think there was horse trading (as always) so that Eck was allowed to form the words, but couldn’t have the third way as option.

I suppose SNP are the party of independence rather than federalism, and I suppose it would have fragmented the vote (maybe ATV system) but I can see many folk (probably incl me) that would hestitate to vote Yes, feel No is a bit mouseish, but would want more devolved powers..